Raiders, TOD, TLC comparison

[Fedora]

On another thread Erri had asked if perhaps all 3 hats were the same, just creased differently. I have always felt that the Raiders fedora was different. I grabbed some pics off of my pc and here they are.



Let's just compare the hats from the front view.

First is the Raiders. And I think this basically represents what most see as a Raiders fedora. And I use this pic because the front crease is high, as you can see if you watch this sequence.



Here is the TOD fedora and pretty much represents what we see during the film.





And the LC fedora.




To me, after looking at the TOD and LC fedora, again, these appear to possibly be the same block used for both hats. Some of the LC fedoras appear to be shorter. Less than 4 1/2 inches at the front crease. Some of the TOD fedoras appear to be taller than the LC.

Now, personally, I just can't see how the Raiders fedora could have been used for the TOD or TLC. The latter hats just don't have the straighter sides that we see in some of the Raider hats. And, I just have to think that if the TOD or TLC would have been as straight, we would be able to see some hats in those two films that resembled the Raiders fedora more than they do. When we do see tapered hats in Raiders it is due to the back being dropped down low, like in the Temple scenes. But, this is my opinion. Even the first pic above of the TOD fedora, while crisp looking, has none of the straightness we see in some of the Raider fedoras. I can see more taper even in this pristine looking hat, than in the Raider fedoras. Opinons? All are welcomed. Fedora

[Fedora]

I mentioned that some of the hats in LC looked shorter. Extend the ribbon up on this one to find out the front crease is less than 4 1/2 inches.



Are there any hats in Raiders that have this amount of taper? I can't find any.



Finally, this LC hat had a high front crease height. It is tapered.



And this Raiders fedora we all know also had a high front crease height.



When you push up the height of the front and back creases of a Raiders fedora, it gets squarer. When you push up the front height of the other two, you get a tapered hat.

Now, granted, the creases were different in TOD and TLC. But, if you use those style creases on a straighter block, you still don't get the amount of taper shown in TOD and TLC. And vice versa. If you crease the TOD or TLC hat per Raiders, you still can't get that square look. Fedora

[Digger4Glory]

IMO.. I don't think the Raider's block was used for any other film. When I was kid I must have seen Raider's in the movie house 20 times! That's no joke, the movie house in our town was cheap and I would see the film over and over. Now first impressions are very strong and I loved this hat right from the start. Now when I went to go see TOD and LC, I knew right off the bat there were things that were off. I knew nothing about blocks or hatters terminology but I could definately see how the shape of the crown was off the Raiders specs. It just kind of curved in upward, like more of a mountain top, then those straight up sides in Raiders.
Raiders was suppose to be a "B" movie, done in the fasion of the old Sat Serial thrillers. I don't think they ever thought it would turn into a francise for a second. It's possible that when they went to make TOD they did not even remember which block was used. Perhaps they even thought, "Well, who will notice the difference?"
Little did they know just a few would..

[Fedora]

It's possible that when they went to make TOD they did not even remember which block was used. Perhaps they even thought, "Well, who will notice the difference"
Little did they know just a few would..

And, they used a different costume designer for TOD and TLC. Same guy. D.N. worked on Raiders. This may be part of it. The crease style changed. So, the designer changed this.

I have conjectured that Swales did not want to bespoke the hats again. Too much trouble, and just used a stock Poet as what he sold them. Either that, or HJ changed factories. The felt of the Raider fedora is not the same as the other two films. Which says to me, they did change suppliers. IF so, this would explain why the hats are different in blockshape too.

It could be that Swales actually only cut down the brims. And had the Raiders fedora bespoke at the factory they were using at that time. Then before TOD, HJ changed factories. With factories going out of business during that period, this is logical. The factory that made the TOD fedora probably did not have the exact same block as the Raiders factory, and that would explain why the blockshape changed. But something did change, and to me that is pretty obvious.

Also, the brim break stitches of the LC fedora says it was not made in the same place as the Raiders hat, which had no visible brim break stitches that hold in the sweat. This is another clue. Since brim break stitches are rare, as most factories stitch in the sweat a bit above the brim break, this points to a different factory too. Add it all up, the appearance and the workmanship, and this really does point to another supplier to the TOD and TLC fedora. Fedora

[Digger4Glory]

The LC hat when Indy is on horseback does seem taller perhaps for the visual appearance at a distance. This way the character could be more identifed. Maybe that's why they wen with that high creased front you mentioned. Were the ribbons used in TOD and LC different in size from Raiders?

[BendingOak]

Good question. They look the same but I can never get really good shot of the TO and LC. No one really studies these two hats.

[Digger4Glory]

Good question. They look the same but I can never get really good shot of the TO and LC. No one really studies these two hats.

That optical illusion thing maybe playing a role in making the height of a crown seem smaller with a wider ribbon. Perhaps an ingredient in the overall appearance if the ribbons used for LC and TOD were wider.

[Fedora]

Perhaps an ingredient in the overall appearance if the ribbons used for LC and TOD were wider.

Someone did a study years ago on the ribbon width and crown heights. A pictorial. That study showed all ribbons being the same width. Fedora

[Digger4Glory]

Perhaps an ingredient in the overall appearance if the ribbons used for LC and TOD were wider.

Someone did a study years ago on the ribbon width and crown heights. A pictorial. That study showed all ribbons being the same width. Fedora

So, the ribbon's width, would be the only constant throughout the films then. This would rule out any optical illusion thing going on with the crowns height for TOD and LC.

[Fedora]

They look the same but I can never get really good shot of the TO and LC. No one really studies these two hats.

That is right. You really don't get good shots of either of these hats, like you do with Raiders. Looked like they really wanted to show off that Raiders fedora, and almost wanted to hide the other two!

I recall searching years ago for good shots of the other two hats, but never could find any really good ones. Which makes it harder to study. But, since I never liked either of those two hats, I really never spent much time studying them anyways.

When we made the Indy 4 hats, although Bernie was after a LC look, we just couldn't send in any that were that tapered. Both Marc and I love the Raiders fedora, and this affected what we made. Fedora

[Fedora]

So, the ribbon's width, would be the only constant throughout the films then. This would rule out any optical illusion thing going on with the crowns height for TOD and LC.

Yes, if that study was accurate. But we had one guy who posted a film used hat, supposedly, and it had a 1 3/4 ribbon! This was a few years ago. Most fans discounted that hat as not being real film hat, but who knows? Well, I must say Bernie had used film hats and they had the 39 mm. ribbon. Basically 1 1/2 inches.

To my eye, the ribbon looks to be the same width in all 3 films. But, I could be crossed eyed too! Fedora

[Digger4Glory]

They look the same but I can never get really good shot of the TO and LC. No one really studies these two hats.

That is right. You really don't get good shots of either of these hats, like you do with Raiders. Looked like they really wanted to show off that Raiders fedora, and almost wanted to hide the other two!

I recall searching years ago for good shots of the other two hats, but never could find any really good ones. Which makes it harder to study. But, since I never liked either of those two hats, I really never spent much time studying them anyways.

When we made the Indy 4 hats, although Bernie was after a LC look, we just couldn't send in any that were that tapered. Both Marc and I love the Raiders fedora, and this affected what we made. Fedora

I'm sure I can speak for many here when I say.. "I'm glad you guys stuck to your guns!!"

[Fedora]

One last thing, for now. The Stetsons placed in the Indy films were 5 inch open crown. I talked to Hatco years ago and found out the tallest dress hat they make maxes out at 5 inches open crown. If you measure a modern Temple, you can verify this pretty fast.

I am assuming Stetson would have tried to match the HJs, in dimensions, which would put at least some of those HJs at 5 inches open crown. Which I don't think the Raiders shared. I feel pretty sure that the Raiders was between 5 1/4 and 5 1/2, somewhere. Certainly not taller than 5 1/2, and in reality, probably a tad less. Fedora

[Digger4Glory]

One last thing, for now. The Stetsons placed in the Indy films were 5 inch open crown. I talked to Hatco years ago and found out the tallest dress hat they make maxes out at 5 inches open crown. If you measure a modern Temple, you can verify this pretty fast.

I am assuming Stetson would have tried to match the HJs, in dimensions, which would put at least some of those HJs at 5 inches open crown. Which I don't think the Raiders shared. I feel pretty sure that the Raiders was between 5 1/4 and 5 1/2, somewhere. Certainly not taller than 5 1/2, and in reality, probably a tad less. Fedora

I had thought the stetson's were in just LC but TOD as well?

[jlee562]

One last thing, for now. The Stetsons placed in the Indy films were 5 inch open crown. I talked to Hatco years ago and found out the tallest dress hat they make maxes out at 5 inches open crown. If you measure a modern Temple, you can verify this pretty fast.

I am assuming Stetson would have tried to match the HJs, in dimensions, which would put at least some of those HJs at 5 inches open crown. Which I don't think the Raiders shared. I feel pretty sure that the Raiders was between 5 1/4 and 5 1/2, somewhere. Certainly not taller than 5 1/2, and in reality, probably a tad less. Fedora

I had thought the stetson's were in just LC but TOD as well?

Ok, now I'm really confused because I thought the Stetsons were only in ToD, if at all? What point in LC has been said to have a Stetson?

[Fedora]

Ok, now I'm really confused because I thought the Stetsons were only in ToD, if at all? What point in LC has been said to have a Stetson?

And I wasn't sure if Stetson was in TOD! Stetson had an ad poster, right after TLC came out. It said, "Indy is back and he's wearing a Stetson". I had heard they were in TOD as well, but I can't say for sure. May NOT have been. Fedora

[WalkingEye]

Are we sure that the raiders ribbon is 1 1/2 on the dot? I've been buying vintage ribbon and have found some ribbon that is a 16th shy of an inch, some that is 16th to an 8th of an inch over. One of the ribbons i bought is antique, it is an inch and 7/16ths, in a color called bittersweet that is spot on in color to what we see on screen.

[Fedora]

Are we sure that the raiders ribbon is 1 1/2 on the dot? I've been buying vintage ribbon and have found some ribbon that is a 16th shy of an inch, some that is 16th to an 8th of an inch over. One of the ribbons i bought is antique, it is an inch and 7/16ths, in a color called bittersweet that is spot on in color to what we see on screen.

Hat band ribbon was traditionally made using the ligne system. Not inches. And this can cause confusion. The Indy ribbon was actually 39 mm, which is just a frog hair over 1 1/2 inches. Probably 1/32nd an inch. Not much. And not discernable by the human eye.

All of my vintage ribbon is given in lignes. Not inches. Fedora

[WalkingEye]

Are we sure that the raiders ribbon is 1 1/2 on the dot? I've been buying vintage ribbon and have found some ribbon that is a 16th shy of an inch, some that is 16th to an 8th of an inch over. One of the ribbons i bought is antique, it is an inch and 7/16ths, in a color called bittersweet that is spot on in color to what we see on screen.

Hat band ribbon was traditionally made using the ligne system. Not inches. And this can cause confusion. The Indy ribbon was actually 39 mm, which is just a frog hair over 1 1/2 inches. Probably 1/32nd an inch. Not much. And not discernable by the human eye.

All of my vintage ribbon is given in lignes. Not inches. Fedora

I'm familiar with the Lignes system... the ribbon i mentioned is 16 linge. i have 19 linge ribbon that measures 1 5/8ths in inches. does that put the Indy Ribbon at 17 or 18 ligne?