The Formula of the Turn

[Digger4Glory]

Is there a formula for the Raiders Turn? I believe I read Ford wore a size 7 1/4 hat in Raiders. I'm not sure if anyone actually knows the measurement of how much the hat was turned. If the hat was turned say 1/4 inch before the bash on a size 7 1/4 hat then there should be some kind of formula in place to match the look for smaller or larger hat sizes.
I'm no hatter but I would say there would have to be a formula in place because on someone with a smaller head the offset would be greater giving the turn a more pronounced look. On a larger head the turn would be less. Either way, larger or smaller the look would be off.
I have been reading how some people like the turn and some do not and I know it has to do partly with preference. However, wiithout a formula in place the look would be off if the hatter was not with you to eyeball it. This may be the reason that some people dont care for the turn on themselves although they like the look on Ford.
Whether using fractions or percentages, a formula is the only way to guarantee the degree of turn for each individual. I know there are other factors, like the shape of someone's head and so on. Now, please forgive me, if this was already covered and I have not read it as yet. This particular look seems to have so many complexions and if there is some formula in place that would help to nail the look for everyone.

[gwyddion]

The problem isn't head size, but head shape. If you would look at the top of peoples heads you would notice that the shape, as seen from above, varies a lot from person to person. Every head is oval when seen from above, but some are more "circular" and some are "more oval".
The next picture is (albeit a bit exaggerated) a representation of the three categories all head shapes roughly fall into:


A) is the category that is called Round Oval, meaning head shapes that are more rounded towards circular than average.
B) is the category that is called Regular Oval, meaning head shapes that are average in oval-ness.
C) is the category that is called Long Oval, meaning head shapes that are a more elongated oval in shape than average.

Most (factory made) hats are Regular Oval in shape, meaning they are made to fit the average person (and therefore the majority of people).
The "turn" is a distortion of the brim that you get when you offset the oval shape of the hat on the oval shape of the head. The hat is then pushed into a shape it wasn't made in, resulting in a warping of the brim.

Bearing all this in mind, it follows that if you have a Regular Oval hat but a Round Oval head, you would have to offset the two ovals more to get the same effect, whereas a Regular Oval hat on a Long oval head will show the effect much sooner. Naturally a Regular Oval head with a Regular Oval head in it would lie between those two combinations in regards to the degree of offsetting needed to create the desired brim warping effect.

I hope this clears up thing a bit for you and explains why I think a formula for the turn would be very complex indeed

Regards, Geert

[Digger4Glory]

I agree the head shape is a factor and perhaps the dominant factor on how the turn would look on an individual. I still think the measurement of ones head versus he measurement used for the offset of the turn is a factor though. Perhaps, the combinations of these two factors would achieve the correct result of how the turn would look on an individual. There maybe still other factors, like the height of where a person wears their hat (sits) on their head. LIke I said I am no hatter and there are some really great hatters here on this site who may read this and have a good laugh because they know the complexions of getting a hat to fit and look correct with the turn, on people round the globe. This done without being in front of that person. All of which is done with great success as seen by the many pics right here.
With that said, if there was a formula in place the hat should fit with a turn and look the part on everyone. I don't know if I'm making sense or just running around the dessert with sunstroke but I do think the measurement of ones head versus the measurement used to offset the turn must be a factor.

[BendingOak]

It's more the shape than the size. Thats why I can't hit the mark 100% of the time with the turn. If it was size it would be very simple to get the turn right for every customer.

Its very simple to get the turn into your hat. If you are good at creasing your own hat. It's a very simple process.


If you follow the video, you should get it.

[Digger4Glory]

The video's are very helpful! I wonder if there could be a method to capture the shape of someones head. Perhaps even something low tech...

[WalkingEye]

The video's are very helpful! I wonder if there could be a method to capture the shape of someones head. Perhaps even something low tech...

hatters used to have a device called a conformer at their disposal to do just that. it was basically a two part machine. the first part was a large hat shaped mechanism that the hatter would place on the customers head; it was used to punch out or trace a scaled templet of the shape of said customers head. the second half of the process was another device that was basically an adjustable multi fingered hat block; you would put the templet in and adjust the fingers to the shape of the templet. the hatter would then put the customers hat (which until this point was a regular/round/ long oval in the appropriate size) and set the area of the hat that rests on the head to the shape of the templet/persons head.

[Digger4Glory]

The video's are very helpful! I wonder if there could be a method to capture the shape of someones head. Perhaps even something low tech...

hatters used to have a device called a conformer at their disposal to do just that. it was basically a two part machine. the first part was a large hat shaped mechanism that the hatter would place on the customers head; it was used to punch out or trace a scaled templet of the shape of said customers head. the second half of the process was another device that was basically an adjustable multi fingered hat block; you would put the templet in and adjust the fingers to the shape of the templet. the hatter would then put the customers hat (which until this point was a regular/round/ long oval in the appropriate size) and set the area of the hat that rests on the head to the shape of the templet/persons head.

It would be cool to see some pics of that! It was probably made for just being in the hat shop but I would imagine there was some type of portable device say a door to door salesman would use.

[Digger4Glory]

The problem isn't head size, but head shape. If you would look at the top of peoples heads you would notice that the shape, as seen from above, varies a lot from person to person. Every head is oval when seen from above, but some are more "circular" and some are "more oval".
The next picture is (albeit a bit exaggerated) a representation of the three categories all head shapes roughly fall into:


A) is the category that is called Round Oval, meaning head shapes that are more rounded towards circular than average.
B) is the category that is called Regular Oval, meaning head shapes that are average in oval-ness.
C) is the category that is called Long Oval, meaning head shapes that are a more elongated oval in shape than average.

Most (factory made) hats are Regular Oval in shape, meaning they are made to fit the average person (and therefore the majority of people).
The "turn" is a distortion of the brim that you get when you offset the oval shape of the hat on the oval shape of the head. The hat is then pushed into a shape it wasn't made in, resulting in a warping of the brim.

Bearing all this in mind, it follows that if you have a Regular Oval hat but a Round Oval head, you would have to offset the two ovals more to get the same effect, whereas a Regular Oval hat on a Long oval head will show the effect much sooner. Naturally a Regular Oval head with a Regular Oval head in it would lie between those two combinations in regards to the degree of offsetting needed to create the desired brim warping effect.

I hope this clears up thing a bit for you and explains why I think a formula for the turn would be very complex indeed

Regards, Geert

This really helps get a better understanding along with John's confirmation that the shape of ones's head is the dominant key in getting the turn just right. Cheers!

[BendingOak]

The confirmor that you are talking about is costy. There is a modern version of it. That I could send out to people but I find some have a hard time working a tape measure. This would be much more easy to get wrong.

I think the only way I could get every turned hat 100% is to send the hat open crown. Have them turn the hat and send me pics. When I think they got it. Have the customer
mark the hat with chalk. Send the hat back from creasing.

Or by using my video and try turning and bashing the hat.

[Digger4Glory]

The confirmor that you are talking about is costy. There is a modern version of it. That I could send out to people but I find some have a hard time working a tape measure. This would be much more easy to get wrong.

I think the only way I could get every turned hat 100% is to send the hat open crown. Have them turn the hat and send me pics. When I think they got it. Have the customer
mark the hat with chalk. Send the hat back from creasing.

Or by using my video and try turning and bashing the hat.

So basically, the turn is something that needs to be eyeballed per individual whether it's done by the customer completely or marked and sent back. This is the way to guarantee the proper look, if your head tends to be more oval.

[BendingOak]

I put in a little over a 1/4 inch turn or until the front part of the ribbon sits where it does on ford. It's a guess but for the most part I hit it close. To be dead on I would need the customer in front of me or they will need to do it themselves.

John

[DarenHenryW]

I put in a little over a 1/4 inch turn or until the front part of the ribbon sits where it does on ford. It's a guess but for the most part I hit it close. To be dead on I would need the customer in front of me or they will need to do it themselves.

John

I trust your method, John! If anyone can do it, you can!

But how about this question: The SOC hat seems to have more of a warped brim than some of the hats we see in the rest of the film. Would you say that this hat has more of turn than a hat with less brim distortion, or are there other factors that are causing that brim to be so warped?

DHW

[BendingOak]

I put in a little over a 1/4 inch turn or until the front part of the ribbon sits where it does on ford. It's a guess but for the most part I hit it close. To be dead on I would need the customer in front of me or they will need to do it themselves.

John

I trust your method, John! If anyone can do it, you can!

But how about this question: The SOC hat seems to have more of a warped brim than some of the hats we see in the rest of the film. Would you say that this hat has more of turn than a hat with less brim distortion, or are there other factors that are causing that brim to be so warped?

DHW

I think the SOC is fitting him a bit tighter than the others.

Just an FYI. I wear a 23'' Raiders and a 23 1/8 non-turned hat. I need very little turn to get the effect. That also means my ribbon is a tad to far back. There are more than the brim that changes with the turn. Te ribbon moves up to the front and the crown changes shape.

[Digger4Glory]

I definately think a snug hat is key for the look.

[BendingOak]

I definately think a snug hat is key for the look.

I wouldn't say a snug fit. 23 inches for me is not snug. I need a extra 1/8th of an inch so I don't have the turn effect.

[VP]

Maybe you should add the nose so people don't get confused and think that long oval means the head is wider than normally.

[Digger4Glory]

I definately think a snug hat is key for the look.

I was referring to how Ford wears a size smaller so a snug hat to me is definately part of the look.

[DarenHenryW]

I definately think a snug hat is key for the look.

I was referring to how Ford wears a size smaller so a snug hat to me is definately part of the look.

Should we assume that the snugger hat is a result of having to do more "physical acting?" You know, not wanting the hat to fall off . . . ?

DHW

[Digger4Glory]

I definately think a snug hat is key for the look.

I was referring to how Ford wears a size smaller so a snug hat to me is definately part of the look.

Should we assume that the snugger hat is a result of having to do more "physical acting?" You know, not wanting the hat to fall off . . . ?

DHW

Yes, I believe this was Ford's intent. I understand he went down a hat size which would make the hat rather tight. As a result though it adds to the look we love. Now as far as personal preference, I like a snug hat and like the way it looks but not one that's too tight. This is where the lines start to blur from SA to making our gear our own. I know I want a hat I can wear everyday with or without the rest of the garb. Which I think most people do.

[BendingOak]

Are we sure about him wearing a size smaller?

[rover smith]

He staple it to his head so it dosnt fall off, we see this in the behind the scenes extras, he also talks to the hat so it knows when to hold on tighter

[Digger4Glory]

Are we sure about him wearing a size smaller?

I may be mistaken but I believe I read this in a couple of threads right here.

[Digger4Glory]

Are we sure about him wearing a size smaller?

I just cut and pasted this out of 3thoubucks's "muffin-topping" thread from which is found early on from Steve's reply.
"The Raiders hat just looks more streamlined to me, which of course could come from Ford wearing a 7 1/4 when in fact his head size is a 7 3/8. Either that, or the block just tapered in just a little bit. When I made the hat for the film, I used a 7 1/4 block instead of the 7 3/8."

Sorry I could'nt insert the link, I'm still working on that skill...

[BendingOak]

Are we sure about him wearing a size smaller?

I just cut and pasted this out of 3thoubucks's "muffin-topping" thread from which is found early on from Steve's reply.
"The Raiders hat just looks more streamlined to me, which of course could come from Ford wearing a 7 1/4 when in fact his head size is a 7 3/8. Either that, or the block just tapered in just a little bit. When I made the hat for the film, I used a 7 1/4 block instead of the 7 3/8."

Sorry I could'nt insert the link, I'm still working on that skill...

Thats a little confusing. He could have cut the sweatband to fit ford but blocked the body on the smaller block. I would need more information from Steve.

[gwyddion]

Maybe you should add the nose so people don't get confused and think that long oval means the head is wider than normally.

Next time I whip up something in under a minute I'll do that

Regards, Geert

[Fedora]

From working on Indy 4, I found out Ford actual hat size is a 59, or a 7 1/4 English sizing, which is a 7 3/8 American size, Our early info on Ford wearing a 7 1/4 was right, but it was given in the English size, not the american size.

I made Fords hats for Indy 4 in a 22 7/8, which is between an American 7 1/4 and 7 3/8, and the hat was tight. So, he wears a 7 3/8 American sized hat.

I just have to believe that the hats D.L. had made for Ford actually fit him, without being too tight. Unless she make them smaller so a to stay on this head. It is possible, I guess.

And leather sweatband will tend to shrink in the heat. That may have happened to the SOC hat, which made D.L. work on the hat, so it would not give Ford a headache. But who knows? Still part of the mystery, lost in time. Fedora

[BendingOak]

From working on Indy 4, I found out Ford actual hat size is a 59, or a 7 1/4 English sizing, which is a 7 3/8 American size, Our early info on Ford wearing a 7 1/4 was right, but it was given in the English size, not the american size.

I made Fords hats for Indy 4 in a 22 7/8, which is between an American 7 1/4 and 7 3/8, and the hat was tight. So, he wears a 7 3/8 American sized hat.

I just have to believe that the hats D.L. had made for Ford actually fit him, without being too tight. Unless she make them smaller so a to stay on this head. It is possible, I guess.

And leather sweatband will tend to shrink in the heat. That may have happened to the SOC hat, which made D.L. work on the hat, so it would not give Ford a headache. But who knows? Still part of the mystery, lost in time. Fedora

Thank you Steve for popping in and clearing that up. I had a feeling some of the facts weren't spot on.

[Local Land Surveyor]

Hey Digger4Glory,
Size of the hat plays less of a factor. A ratio is the correct path and it lies in the block itself. When I created each size block for hat making, a ratio is needed to get each size hat to do the same shape. What I found was that the amount of "turn" is the same for each size. We all have used the ribbon as a reference to figure out "how much turn" was used on the hat. That is a clue to the amount. With other hats I've owned, the turn took different amounts and I was forever fighting the right spot for the ribbon bow knot and the right amount of swoop on the brim. Either the swoop came out right, but the bow knot was to far in front of my ear, or the bow knot was in the right place, but the swoop was mild. Became frustrating. To fix the problem, I would reset the bow. On the hats I make, I have standardized these factors so that the hat comes out rightfor each of these elements.
To answer your question, the formula is:
TURN= (PI^2/R) + (Circumfrance-(1/2 width sweatband))^3.

Just kidding
LLS

[Digger4Glory]

From working on Indy 4, I found out Ford actual hat size is a 59, or a 7 1/4 English sizing, which is a 7 3/8 American size, Our early info on Ford wearing a 7 1/4 was right, but it was given in the English size, not the american size.

I made Fords hats for Indy 4 in a 22 7/8, which is between an American 7 1/4 and 7 3/8, and the hat was tight. So, he wears a 7 3/8 American sized hat.

I just have to believe that the hats D.L. had made for Ford actually fit him, without being too tight. Unless she make them smaller so a to stay on this head. It is possible, I guess.

And leather sweatband will tend to shrink in the heat. That may have happened to the SOC hat, which made D.L. work on the hat, so it would not give Ford a headache. But who knows? Still part of the mystery, lost in time. Fedora

The SOC hat may have been even padded under the sweatband because of all the running around and physical acting scenes. As a result this might of added to the warp of the brim. So is it safe to say the tighter a hat the more pronounced a turns look would be?

[Digger4Glory]

To answer your question, the formula is:
TURN= (PI^2/R) + (Circumfrance-(1/2 width sweatband))^3.

Just kidding
LLS[/quote]
You almost had me there!

[VP]

TURN= (PI^2/R) + (Circumfrance-(1/2 width sweatband))^3.

How much is the radius?

[Local Land Surveyor]

R=Radius=various.



Just kidding with you VP.

Have to be carefull with me Digger4Glory. A surveyor gets all technical with radius's, curves and arcs. We have a lot to pull from to "make up stuff". Looked convincing though. Didn't it?

LLS

[Long John Tinfoil]

And here I thought the relationship between the turn and the "swoop" was actually in inverse proportion to the sharpness of the point of the head plus the density of the hair divided by the square root of the volume of the vacuum between the ears...

LJ

[Local Land Surveyor]

........ vacuum between the ears...

Maybe, but in my case it's "......void between the ears"

LLS

[Digger4Glory]

Local Land Surveyor-"We have a lot to pull from to "make up stuff". Looked convincing though. Didn't it?"

A little smoke and mirrors goes a long way.

[Digger4Glory]

From working on Indy 4, I found out Ford actual hat size is a 59, or a 7 1/4 English sizing, which is a 7 3/8 American size, Our early info on Ford wearing a 7 1/4 was right, but it was given in the English size, not the american size.

I made Fords hats for Indy 4 in a 22 7/8, which is between an American 7 1/4 and 7 3/8, and the hat was tight. So, he wears a 7 3/8 American sized hat.

I just have to believe that the hats D.L. had made for Ford actually fit him, without being too tight. Unless she make them smaller so a to stay on this head. It is possible, I guess.

And leather sweatband will tend to shrink in the heat. That may have happened to the SOC hat, which made D.L. work on the hat, so it would not give Ford a headache. But who knows? Still part of the mystery, lost in time. Fedora

Thank you Steve for popping in and clearing that up. I had a feeling some of the facts weren't spot on.

Yes, clarity is the key here and that helped alot. Thanks Steve! So as far as "Raiders" is concerned it is unknown of Ford wearing a size down. Sorry for the misquote and the sizing actually referring to CS and not "Raiders".

In my opinion though, it is definately sitting on his head pretty tight whether it's a size smaller or there is a little padding under the sweat.

[Digger4Glory]

So based on the feedback so far which has been great, these are some factors.

1) The shape of the customers head being more oval.

2) Although head size is not as much a factor, if a hat fits loose or tight that will influence the turn. Tighter hat more turn and looser hat perhaps not even noticed.

3) Something not mentioned as yet but I think it would be a factor is the type of fur used. Rabbit, beaver, blend, other?

4) ? ? ?

[VP]

I don't think it's the material but the floppiness of the felt.

[rover smith]

I don't think it's the material but the floppiness of the felt.

So would a stiffer hat produce a more obvious brim warp?

[BendingOak]

I don't think it's the material but the floppiness of the felt.

So would a stiffer hat produce a more obvious brim warp?

no, but it won't feel that good.

I still don't see anyone putting a size smaller hat on a movie stars head.

[rover smith]

I still don't see anyone putting a size smaller hat on a movie stars head.

Was there not talk of the possibility that the sweatband was removed, atleast in the SoC hat? If it was a slightly smaller size could this be a solution they came up with on location so it wasnt as snug?

[Satipo]

I still don't see anyone putting a size smaller hat on a movie stars head.

I agree. A tight hat would pull on Ford's brow and restrict his facial expressions.

[Indiana Bugs]

I don't think it's the material but the floppiness of the felt.

So would a stiffer hat produce a more obvious brim warp?

Based on what Ive seen here in pictures, and what Ive tried with my own Fed IV, a stiffer/thicker felt results in less brim warp.

[Digger4Glory]

I don't think it's the material but the floppiness of the felt.

So would a stiffer hat produce a more obvious brim warp?

no, but it won't feel that good.

I still don't see anyone putting a size smaller hat on a movie stars head.

As far as "Raiders" we may never know the actual sizing for that film but would you agree to the following factors thus far?

So based on the feedback so far which has been great, these are some factors.

1) The shape of the customers head being more oval.

2) Although head size is not as much a factor, if a hat fits loose or tight that will influence the turn. Tighter hat more turn and looser hat perhaps not even noticed.

3) Something not mentioned as yet but I think it would be a factor is the type of fur used. Rabbit, beaver, blend, other?

4) ? ? ?

[fenris]

I've got a round head... if I try to turn my hat to a point that the brim warps, it looks weird. The bow is waaayyyy to the front... almost on my face. Maybe it also has something to do with the hat not being that tight.

[Local Land Surveyor]

I don't think it's the material but the floppiness of the felt.

So would a stiffer hat produce a more obvious brim warp?

no, but it won't feel that good.

I still don't see anyone putting a size smaller hat on a movie stars head.

As far as "Raiders" we may never know the actual sizing for that film but would you agree to the following factors thus far?

So based on the feedback so far which has been great, these are some factors.

1) The shape of the customers head being more oval.

2) Although head size is not as much a factor, if a hat fits loose or tight that will influence the turn. Tighter hat more turn and looser hat perhaps not even noticed.

3) Something not mentioned as yet but I think it would be a factor is the type of fur used. Rabbit, beaver, blend, other?

4) ? ? ?

Digger4Glory,

Something else to consider for your list is the type dimensional brim cut. Exactly where the side dimension transitions out to the wider dimension on the front is a factor. Where this happens, especially on the right side, will aid in the tip of the corner of the "crooked smile" look of the brim. Two examples:





P.S. Clear examples of two completely different bash styles for the crown. Ravenbar shows more "rounder" shapes to the top of the brow bash (a.k.a. camel humps). Swing hat is more angular, straight top across the brow. A variable, if you will, on the general formula.

LLS

[Digger4Glory]

I don't think it's the material but the floppiness of the felt.

So would a stiffer hat produce a more obvious brim warp?

no, but it won't feel that good.

I still don't see anyone putting a size smaller hat on a movie stars head.

As far as "Raiders" we may never know the actual sizing for that film but would you agree to the following factors thus far?

So based on the feedback so far which has been great, these are some factors.

1) The shape of the customers head being more oval.

2) Although head size is not as much a factor, if a hat fits loose or tight that will influence the turn. Tighter hat more turn and looser hat perhaps not even noticed.

3) Something not mentioned as yet but I think it would be a factor is the type of fur used. Rabbit, beaver, blend, other?

4) ? ? ?

Digger4Glory,

Something else to consider for your list is the type dimensional brim cut. Exactly where the side dimension transitions out to the wider dimension on the front is a factor. Where this happens, especially on the right side, will aid in the tip of the corner of the "crooked smile" look of the brim. Two examples:





P.S. Clear examples of two completely different bash styles for the crown. Ravenbar shows more "rounder" shapes to the top of the brow bash (a.k.a. camel humps). Swing hat is more angular, straight top across the brow. A variable, if you will, on the general formula.

LLS

Thanks Local Land Surveyor! This is something that did'nt even occur to me... very interesting... This is one great forum!!
Thanks!

[Digger4Glory]

I've got a round head... if I try to turn my hat to a point that the brim warps, it looks weird. The bow is waaayyyy to the front... almost on my face. Maybe it also has something to do with the hat not being that tight.

This is exactly why I wanted to start this thread brother! The turn has to be researched.

[BendingOak]

A ratio is the correct path and it lies in the block itself. When I created each size block for hat making, a ratio is needed to get each size hat to do the same shape

Yes David I agree that if your set is made correctly and I hope most are. That every size should be the same. Not that you need a special shape to get the turn effect.

Shape of the persons head plays a big part. What shape the hat was blocked on plays a roll Example a long oval in a reg. oval blocked hat????? Size plays very little roll if any at all. Dim cut plays a roll.

Now if you go from label to label. Thats going to play a roll. Buy a akubra and you might have to turn it 1/4 inch. buy a HJ and you might have to turn it 3/8 inch. going from from a 7 3/8 inch akubra to a 7 1/2 inch akubra both should be about the same ( based on size only). It is very hard to get the turn spot on on every person if i don't have them in front of me. There are tiny difference from one persons head to another. You could have to reg. oval guys at 7 1/4 and still need a different amount of turn. Now I'm not talking a big difference. Just a tiny bit.

[rover smith]

Something else to consider for your list is the type dimensional brim cut. Exactly where the side dimension transitions out to the wider dimension on the front is a factor.

Thats a very good point. Is there a standard to how the dimensional cut is applied or would that vary from label to label?