Who actually shoots their 1917 revolver?

[android]

So, who actually shoots their 1917 and doesn't **** at it?

I'm a pretty good shot with 9mm, .40 and .45 semi-auto pistols, but the first two times out with my 1917 have been the lamest. I'm a good 8 - 12 inches off from where I'm aiming.

Not only am I all over the place, but I also managed to take a big chunk out of my thumb with my trigger finger fingernail.

I got a Hogue rubber grip and I am going to swap that out next time to see if I do any better.

[Imahomer]

I've shot mine a few times and no problem-0

[Solent MKIII]

I'm a good 8 - 12 inches off from where I'm aiming.

Ha! Sounds just like me! I couldn't hit the center of my target at 25 yards, but I managed to blow two chunks out of the pvc pipe stand that was holding it up, causing it to list and droop like a drunken sailor ( my buddy burst out laughing at this ). The only other .45 I'd shot before was a 1911, so I thought I knew what to expect. I was a bit surprised with the 1917 recoil - that sucker really kicks! I'm assuming that the semi-auto action of the slide on the 1911 absorbs some of the recoil whereas the 1917 has no such luxury - YOU absorb the recoil! Lot of fun to shoot, though. Let us know how those Hogue grips work out for you, android.

[alphared6]

many of these old pistols are just shot out. How are the lanes and groves in your barrel? If that barrel is without them that could be your problem.

I'm deadly accurate with mine at 25 feet.

[Sebastian Arms]

I don't get to shoot mine as often as a like due to ammo cost, but I seem to be able to keep a decent grouping at 25 yards. Mine is one of the new edition models though.


My favorite thing about this pistol is that when I first shot it, my then 8 year old son wanted to try it as well. Now, I am a gun safety guy and have been teaching both my kids how to shoot safely with bow and arrows, flintlocks, .22s and .20 gauges, but I was concerned about him handling the recoil of this pistol. Wow, he did great. Held the pistol like a pro and shot off five rounds hitting the backdrop twice at 25. Not bad for a small fry with a larger pistol.

You all have a great holiday season-we just got a lot of snow, so the boys and I are having some adventures in the white today.

Cheers

Sebastian

[BOINKFFD]

Several times.Also shoot Lugers, Broom handle, M1 and Carbine.

[Mountaineer]

Starting out with firearms in a caliber of this size can sometimes be a bad thing.
Some folks don't like the recoil of 45 ACP, and it can make you "flinchy" if you let it; then you'll never get good results.
It causes some shooters to hesitate, get fearful, and flinch anticipating the recoil while others will rush through shooting to make the pain go away faster.
No matter how subconscious, that flinch or hurried shooting will never yield good results.

Basically, if the barrel is OK (i.e not pitted or worn smooth), and the sights are functional, once you get a good grip, watch your trigger squeeze and don't let the report/recoil affect you, great results can occur.
That's really it: getting a good drip on the revolver and paying attention to the fundamentals equals good results.
Mostly you have to learn and practice good habits, over and over, until you become consistent with what you are doing.

That's not just me saying that, Jerry Miculek (himself, a S&W pro) has a good tutorial on the subject and it is what I watched before I went out to plug away.
I still reference it now and then because good marksmanship is a perishable skill. If you don't use it, you'll lose it.

Here's a link to the tutorial: http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/smit ... J0KNWQYqM4

The proof of these pointers is in the paper though. Here are my results (fired and recorded at normal pistol range) after watching and applying the above information. The circled holes with numbers indicate the firing iteration: 1st 6 rounds, 2nd 6 rounds etc. The numbers with an "x" indicate double (2x) or single (1x) action used in firing that group.

Mostly shot via double action:


Mostly shot via single action:


Watch the videos, practice your grip, work on your trigger squeeze and you'll get better.
Dry firing a center-fire revolver like these can't really hurt it. That is not the case with a rim-fire like a .22, where the firing pin can wear out the barrel face.
(Another can of worms, but have at it: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=86922)

If you really want something in there for the hammer to fall on, invest in some snap caps.
Personally I don't like the idea of fake rounds, or "dummunition" for practice.
Why? Well, I know a firearm is unloaded and safe for such practice if I check and see nothing but air in the chamber, magazine, cylinder.
I can invest in a new firing pin if one breaks in a firearm.
A misfire from a misplaced round is more cost than I'm willing to wager for some fundamentals practice.

[HarryStreet]

Basically, if the barrel is OK (i.e not pitted or worn smooth), and the sights are functional, once you get a good grip, watch your trigger squeeze and don't let the report/recoil affect you, great results can occur.
That's really it: getting a good drip on the revolver and paying attention to the fundamentals equals good results.
Mostly you have to learn and practice good habits, over and over, until you become consistent with what you are doing.

That's not just me saying that, Jerry Miculek (himself, a S&W pro) has a good tutorial on the subject and it is what I watched before I went out to plug away.
I still reference it now and then because good marksmanship is a perishable skill. If you don't use it, you'll lose it.

I'm going to give a big thumbs up to Mountaineer's advice. I've was at one time a fairly competitive shooter, and I still serve in the US Army and shoot "Expert". I was an assistant range officer for an IDPA range in Northern Arizona for a while and have helped teach handgun fundamentals to new officers in my Army unit.

While my primary weapon is a semi-auto, all of the basic skills mentioned by Mountaineer and demonstrated in the video tutorial from S&W are fundamental to ANY kind of shooting: revolver, pistol, carbine, shotgun, etc.

I might add that if you are having troubles with the initial recoil from a large power factor, see if you can't find someone in your community who is a reloader. They might be able to load you a slightly tamer round. If you are shooting .38 or .45, stay away from +P loadings or self-defense ammunition, they are loaded a fair bit hotter than a standard round. Also, some brands load hotter than others within the standard SAMMI parameters. Ask your gun dealer or wherever your source your ammo from.

However, the majority of the time it's really about proper grip and firing stance, i.e fundamentals

[Mountaineer]

Thanks Harry. Your comments of working with the officers reminded me of an event in my previous life..

I remember when I was in college and starting ROTC my senior year, I went to a summer basic camp to "catch up" with the other cadets. We had a weapons familiarization and firing day and the timidity some future officers displayed with firearms (pistol and rifle) was amazing. I mean you're going into the Army and are afraid to handle a weapon? Ummm, OK...

At the range, the range officers allowed us to load two 10-round magazines for the Beretta 9mm and then we got to shoot them. Now I'd been shooting most of my life and I'd been quite familiar with that pistol's design as my best friend at home owned one (in .40 cal, but it's controls and functioning were the same). We got to the firing line, positioned ourselves in front of a 15m stationary "Crazy Ivan" pop-up, locked and loaded our pistols, and the command to fire was given.

In the time it took a couple other cadets to fire one complete magazine, I'd emptied my first, dropped it, reloaded, fired my second and dropped that magazine as well; all shots impacted on target. I checked the barrel, ensuring the thing was cleared, and looked at the NCO next to me and smiled. He goes "Are you a cop?" and I go "Nope, been playing with these all my life." Then he goes, "You plan on being an Infantry officer?" and I go, "How'd you know?" He just smiled, laughed a little and shook his head.

Being familiar with something allows one to build a comfort level with whatever it is; and a good comfort level inspires confidence in you and your capabilities. Not having that comfort via familiarity means you'll not have the self-confidence in your ability to employ your weapon. You'll have a hard time enjoying consistent results.

That's the same if it is using a pistol or a whip, on paper bulls-eyes and/or styrofoam cup targets. The results one will garner could be even worse if you aren't confident in your equipment and you end up facing living targets aiming to inflict bodily harm on you.

Train as you'll fight and practice, practice, practice...

[HarryStreet]

Mountaineer:

Without going completely off-topic:

I completely understand. Although I do give some slack to my medical officers. They are doctors and nurses who have come into the military to practice their craft...

Otherwise, no joy. Soldier first.

Or as various instructors have told me:

"The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in combat."

"Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."

"You can't miss fast enough to win."

[pigirondan]

I would like to say that your ammo should be .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ loaded to normal speed of 830-850 f.p.s.. POI should be POA 10 yards in.

[HarryStreet]

I would like to say that your ammo should be .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ loaded to normal speed of 830-850 f.p.s.. POI should be POA 10 yards in.

Agreed. That loading in the fairly heavy 1917 should be very controllable.

FYI (for those that are acronym challenged):

POI = Point of Impact, where the bullet strikes.

POA = Point of Aim, where you are aiming with the sights.

[android]

Alright, range report.

Hogue grips helped a lot. The turn of the century wooden grips are just too small for my hands. I picked up the soft rubber mono grip for a S&W N frame revolver. They add finger grooved grip to the front of the stock grip and are wider also. It was pretty easy to install. Not authentic, but very quick to swap back to the real grips for display purposes.

Looks just like the one at the top left on this page.

http://www.getgrip.com/main/overview/revolvers.html

So, after that I am grouping pretty well at 7yds. (2-3") but still about 3" to the right of where I'm aiming. This was mostly shooting SA since I'm trying to see how the gun shoots, not evaluate my DA shooting which I know needs improvement.

But... toward the end of the session I think I figured out the problem.

The range lighting is weird and it is shining on the back sight such that the right side is shiny and the left side is not. So, I thought I was centering the front sight between the notch, but in reality, it was an optical illusion. I kind of repositioned myself where I was out of the light and all of the sudden POA and POI became much closer together. By that time, I was out of loaded moon clips though, so I will have to try again next week. I will probably hit the sights with a bit of flat black paint in the small dimple at the rear.

As for ammo, I'm just shooting 230grain FMJ WWB, nothing special and I would assume a typical .45 load. I also have some Federal Champion and Remington UMC.

[hocfutue]

For the .45 revolvers and the Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, M1911A1 (blessings upon J.M. Browning!), I found the classic one-handed sideways stance works really well. When I got my 1911 15 years ago, I tried all the "modern" stances with the left hand supporting the right (Weaver, modified, Weaver, isosceles, etc.) and was all over the paper.

Something about the straight arm gives me the right recoil absorbance, and a natural pointing feel. I wasn't trying to muscle the sights onto the target. I've since had really good training and am far more comfortable with stances that allow much better weapon retention, but for slow-fire paper punching, the right-out-of-the-1924-manual stance is pretty good.

And it's screen accurate!

Cairo swordsman? One-handed shot.
Cairo truck? One-handed shot.

[Dangerman009]

... I also managed to take a big chunk out of my thumb with my trigger finger fingernail.

I got a Hogue rubber grip and I am going to swap that out next time to see if I do any better.

I don't have a 1917, but a new production (4 years old now) 22-4 Thunder Ranch. My very first shot with that was touching the X ring. My shots kept low and slightly to the left. I also took a nice sized chunk out of the knuckle on my thumb from the lower edge of the cylinder latch. I thought if I curled my thumb down toward my fingers that I'd be good to go. I was wrong.

On subsequent range visits my shots were all grouping a tad low and to the left, but there was another problem. Pain. I kept making adjustments to my grip and couldn't get it. I remember I tried using my thumb to squeeze the top of the grip (the Thunder Ranch guns have the Magna style grips that have a bit of bulge at the top), that was a mistake also. That area of my thumb and the opposing area on my index finger were sore, really sore, for around two weeks. After a while I got a Tyler T-Grip adapter, still not comfortable. Somewhere in all of this I discovered what I like to call my shooting comfort test. I'll explain more about that in a bit.

Then I got a nylon Hogue monogrip (that's right nylon, not soft rubber) to try. I did my shooting comfort test and it was worse than with the stock grips. The problem was that there is a palm swell on both sides and the swell on the right side hit my hand right where my bone (or tendon, I think it's a bone) moves when I pull (actually squeeze) the trigger. I never shot with the Hogues and will be parting ways with them.

Alright, my shooting comfort test: JUST BECAUSE THIS WORKS FOR ME DOESN'T MEAN IT'LL WORK FOR EVERYONE. I grip the UNLOADED gun as if I were going to shoot. I either dry fire it or cock and de-cock and keep the trigger held back. For me this simulates how my hand is going to be at the instant the gun fires. So all I do is push the gun back and up into my hand, this simulates the recoil. I kept adjusting my grip until I found the position that was the most comfortable. For me that is with the web between my thumb and forefinger just up over the frame hump and my thumb resting on the back of the recoil shield. For me, this is the most comfortable position possible. And that's with the iddy biddy Indy-style grips and the grip adapter. I can even shoot it comfortably one handed.


For me, this is the most comfortable configuration for this gun.

After my first session with this gun I had a significant flinch. Just before firing I'd slightly drop the muzzel. I know. I conquered this by lots of dry fire practice. I would make myself focus so much on the trigger pull (double action) that when I would actually go shooting the shot would surprise me. I got to the point where I could squeeze the trigger and hear the first click and stop after the second click just before the hammer is released. It's funny, I could do this for all six chambers right handed. When I try to do it left handed I can only do it for two chambers. And it's always the same two chambers. It must be the different angle the pressure is coming from.

This is off topic but I'm also an endorser of sightless shooting. Some call it point shooting, I prefer to call it profile shooting. It's not for target work at long distances, but sure is effective at distances up to 10 yards or more. It takes lots of practice (that's what airguns and .22s are for) but the results are satisfying.

[M1917]

I shoot all of my Indy guns. I won't own a gun I can't shoot. I'll be shooting my Webley once the new barrel is fitted.

I set a target in the stand at 25 yards. I use a Weaver style (two handed) hold at center mass on a silhouette target, with an 8 and 1/2 by 11 inch sheet of paper taped to center mass. Single action shooting can give you very good groups at this range, but Indy always shot double action. Your groups will not be as good. My Smith and Wesson M1917 has a smoother double action pull than my Colt. I have also added a Tyler T-Grip to my gun to fill the space for my hands. It is more period-correct than the Hogues. In fairness to the Colt, it was a doughboy duffel gun that was probably shot a little and carried a lot, thus the action is still almost new. I look forward to shooting my Webley. It's a 1916 Mk VI converted to .45 ACP, so I have commonality of caliber with the other revolvers. The double action pull on this revolver is very smooth; likely it was used in several wars and conflicts. The Brits carried them up to the Korean War!

Remeber that these weapons weren't meant to be target guns. They were serious combat handguns..the best that were available during the Great War. Indy would've been familiar with all of them, and confident enough in their abilities to carry them on his adventures.

By the way, my background is 20 years MP/CID, USMC.

[pigirondan]

I too have the Thunder Ranch. I tried the stock magnas, then I added the Tyler, Meh...Then I got a pair N-frame target grips...bingo!

As far as ammo, keep it simple. Any standard 230 grain load will do about the same. I handload, so I've found my sweet spot. Instead of 230 grain FMJ I use 230 round nose lead. It doesn't have to be loaded as hot as the FMJ so the recoil/pressure is a bit less. YMMV.

To digress, Buffalo Bore makes some righteous standard pressure .45 auto rim that can be shot in the 1917 without the need for the moon or half moon clip.

[IndianaRedmon]

I shoot my original M1917, my Smith and Wesson model 22 (blued), and my Webley Mark VI at the club on a regular basis.
I like to keep in practice.