Penman or Penman Henry?

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:39 am

Howdy,

I'm in the market for a Raiders hat. I'm considering both LLS and Penman (may get both eventually), but I have a question regarding Oak's offerings: 1) Raiders in beaver, 2) Raiders in rabbit, and 3) the Henry, a blended felt, bashed by him if requested. Not trying to open a can of worms, but, delivery time notwithstanding, why would one choose the quite-nice-but-factory-made Henry over either of Oak's stellar handmade offerings, especially considering the negligible price differences? Am I missing something? What niche does the Henry fill that Oak's own hats don't (again, delivery time aside)? The blended felt? Slightly different color choice?

RaiderZee

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:33 am

For folks who don't want to pay the price or wait the construction time for a custom, the Henry is an off the shelf hat of high quality construction and manufacture that can be provided within days of order. All he has to do is put in the bash you want and it's out the door.

For someone on a short turn around time who wants a quality high end hat, the Henry is the answer.

Regards! Michaelson

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:49 am

All that Michaelson said, plus the fact that the Henry is the product of Marc's well known attention to detail.
Also, Marc believes the factory has the actual block (or block type) used for Raiders and has claimed that block to be used exclusively for the Henry.

Regards, Geert

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:00 am

...speaking of the Henry, you get a factory hat, without the custom wait time, constructed of materials that rival a custom offering. The ribbons on the AB's and Penman hats are 'the' material, SA. Some prefer the lighter colored felt and characteristic floppiness of the rabbit, which closely reproduces the felt and characteristics of the hero fedora, with added stability. Of course, the other material in the 80/20 blend is beaver felt, which adds to its durability/stability over time.

Some prefer a custom made hat, but just know that a beaver felt is darker, and is said to lighten over time.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:27 am

Wait time is one of the biggest differences between getting a factory and handmade hat. That is part of the appeal of a factory hat, isn't it? Asking not to mention wait time is like saying "Ok, why should I buy a v8 over a v6, but don't tell me about more power." You can get a Henry in days while it would take a couple months to get one of John's custom hats.

There is also the fit of the hat, to account for. Some guys fit perfectly into off the shelf hats. I do not. I fall right inbetween a 60 and 59, so factory hats never fit right, though shrinkage in the sweat does help. You don't have to worry about this with a custom hat. And though the Henry is a very well made hat, the attention to detail that John puts into each and every one of his hats, cannot be matched by a factory hat...any factory hat.

You just have to decide what is best for you. The Henry looks like a great hat and those that have one rave about it. I can attest to John's craftsmanship, as can many others. It's up to you what fits your needs best.

Dave

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:03 pm

DR Ulloa wrote:Asking not to mention wait time is like saying "Ok, why should I buy a v8 over a v6, but don't tell me about more power."

More like "why should I buy a v6 now when I can get a v8 in three months?" When I said "disregarding the wait time", I meant that I personally don't care about the wait for a Penman. I'm sure that not waiting may be a decisive factor for some buyers, just not for me. Having the hat in a week would be gravy.

So basically the ONLY advantage of a Henry-Penman over a real Penman is wait time?

Let me rephrase: if you had $300 to spend on a Raiders hat from Penman, and didn't care about the wait, would you buy a Henry-Penman? Or am I pretty much asking which flavor of ice cream is the best?

RZ

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:09 pm

RaiderZee wrote:
DR Ulloa wrote:Asking not to mention wait time is like saying "Ok, why should I buy a v8 over a v6, but don't tell me about more power."
More like "why should I buy a v6 now when I can get a v8 in three months?" When I said "disregarding the wait time", I meant that I personally don't care about the wait for a Penman. I'm sure that not waiting may be a decisive factor for some buyers, just not for me. Having the hat in a week would be gravy.

So basically the ONLY advantage of a Henry-Penman over a real Penman is wait time?

Let me rephrase: if you had $300 to spend on a Raiders hat from Penman, and didn't care about the wait, would you buy a Henry-Penman? Or am I pretty much asking which flavor of ice cream is the best?

RZ

That would be my interpretation....

If time was no object, I'd opt for a Penman, because of the custom sizing and it being 100% beaver. This is NOT a knock on the Henry, which by all indications (I don't own one, so I can't speak from experience) is a GREAT hat.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:10 pm

RaiderZee wrote:
DR Ulloa wrote:Asking not to mention wait time is like saying "Ok, why should I buy a v8 over a v6, but don't tell me about more power."
More like "why should I buy a v6 now when I can get a v8 in three months?" When I said "disregarding the wait time", I meant that I personally don't care about the wait for a Penman. I'm sure that not waiting may be a decisive factor for some buyers, just not for me. Having the hat in a week would be gravy.

So basically the ONLY advantage of a Henry-Penman over a real Penman is wait time?

Let me rephrase: if you had $300 to spend on a Raiders hat from Penman, and didn't care about the wait, would you buy a Henry-Penman? Or am I pretty much asking which flavor of ice cream is the best?

RZ

Just to make this clear: its the AB Henry, retailed by Penman

So it's a bit of comparing two different hats by different vendors. Only this time they are sold by the same guy.

Regards, Geert

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:12 pm

So basically the ONLY advantage of a Henry-Penman over a real Penman is wait time?

Uh, no. Read what was said below:

All that Michaelson said, plus the fact that the Henry is the product of Marc's well known attention to detail.
Also, Marc believes the factory has the actual block (or block type) used for Raiders and has claimed that block to be used exclusively for the Henry.

The possibility that it has THE ORIGINAL RAIDERS BLOCK is a big selling point. -M

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:34 pm

Mulceber wrote:The possibility that it has THE ORIGINAL RAIDERS BLOCK is a big selling point. -M

Noted. I'm sold on the quality of Oak's hat, but I'll go back a reread the Henry threads before making a decision. Thanks,

RZ

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:31 pm

Look at it this way, if you want a good quality factory hat that might not fit you as perfectly as a custom-made but bears the brand name (and design work) of the people who made the hats for the film then go with the Henry. But if you want a near-unbeatable fit, with 100% beaver felt (for durability) and will last longer than you, made to suit your specific dimensions, especially for you, and will hold it's shape for years to come, then... you know the rest

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:02 pm

I understand where you are coming from now, Zee. I have never cared for waiting for a hat. I've waited on two Penman hats and have another on order and have waited for my ABs and have another on order now. Waiting is not something I care about. If you are like me, then, and don't care about waiting, get the pure beaver Penman.

Dave

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:07 pm

My comments were based on the question:"why would one choose the quite-nice-but-factory-made Henry over either of Oak's stellar handmade offerings, especially considering the negligible price differences?" I don't disagree with Dave and the others suggesting it might be better buying a Penman, just stating why someone would

I have a head that's a true 61, so the Henry works fine for me, but on others it might not.

In the end it all boils down to what you find most important: a fine hat that eventhough it is factory made and doesn't come in half sizes has the possibility to be from the block, or a very fine custom made hat made of some of the best materials by one of the best Indy hatters around.

It's is up to the customer to choose. Personally, I'd like to have both

(already have a Henry, so guess what my birthday present to myself will be)

Regards, Geert

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:40 pm

Snapbrim76 wrote:Look at it this way, if you want a good quality factory hat that might not fit you as perfectly as a custom-made but bears the brand name (and design work) of the people who made the hats for the film then go with the Henry. But if you want a near-unbeatable fit, with 100% beaver felt (for durability) and will last longer than you, made to suit your specific dimensions, especially for you, and will hold it's shape for years to come, then... you know the rest

Let's try to be a bit more charitable to the Henry, shall we Snapbrim? I'm in favor of getting a Penman as well, but the Henry DOES have a lot of things going for it, besides the AB name. First of all, if you want the most accurate Indy hat out there, it's probably a better choice than the Penman. John makes wonderful hats, but the fact of the matter is, the Raiders hat was a rabbit felt hat, and (most of) John's hats are beaver. The AB Henry meanwhile has an 80/20 Beaver/Rabbit blend which means that while it will have the texture of beaver, it will likely have the floppiness of rabbit. So if you're looking to go SA Raiders, the Henry is the way to go, especially since Marc seems to think they have the original Raiders block. It's also a very high quality item, to the point where Marc recently took one in to a local hatter and asked someone with a long history of hat experience what he thought of it and the guy said he thought it was worth something like $800. Make no mistake, this is one of the best Indy hats on the market, period.

To be honest, Snapbrim, I know you're a fan of the Penman and I understand that that will give you a natural tendency to advocate for them, but your characterization of the two hats was almost a slap in the face to Marc's work, as you basically didn't list any of the Henry's favorable traits, apart from its Adventurebilt Pedigree. -M

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:49 pm

Here are the reasons why I would/will choose a Henry:

A rabbit blend of 80/20 and will exhibit qualities of the hero fedora with the added benefit of reinforced stability.

Materials are high quality for a factory hat.

Felt is lighter in color.

Hat is light weight.

Because we live in the desert southwest, there is not necessarily a need for a hat that will repel the elements, though the 20% beaver will be benificial for the needed 20% of the time.

The 80/20 blend is a little cooler than the beaver felt.

ribbon is the same at the original.

block shape.

ship/receive it fast.

got a good beat and you can dance to it!

$\:D/$

Obviously, there are many great qualities to owning a custom hat, the cons being the wait time and a little more money, but you already knew that.

Ultimatley, it's about personal preference.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:53 pm

Just a FYI. I do make handmade custom hats in pure rabbit felt.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:55 pm

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:57 pm

Which is why I only said "most of" your hats are beaver. Nonetheless, I'm sorry if it seemed I gave a false impression.

-M

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:02 pm

Mulceber wrote:Which is why I only said "most of" your hats are beaver. Nonetheless, I'm sorry if it seemed I gave a false impression. -M

Just because none where posted here doesn't mean they are not out there. I still don't understand what mostly beaver hats mean? I'm a bit confused.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:05 pm

I think he is under the impression that you sell more beaver hats than rabbit hats

Regards, Geert

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:13 pm

I am. Are you saying that's wrong, because I was under the impression that most of the hats people buy from you are beaver. If I'm mistaken, my apologies. -M

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:19 pm

Mulceber wrote:I am. Are you saying that's wrong, because I was under the impression that most of the hats people buy from you are beaver. If I'm mistaken, my apologies. -M

no, no. your not wrong and no reason to apologies. You did nothing wrong. I just don't understand one statement.

the Raiders hat was a rabbit felt hat, and (most of) John's hats are beaver. The AB Henry meanwhile has an 80/20 Beaver/Rabbit blend which means that while it will have the texture of beaver, it will likely have the floppiness of rabbit. So if you're looking to go SA Raiders, the Henry is the way to go

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:27 pm

Well I'm just stating that in terms of making a screen-accurate Raiders hat, I think an AB Henry would be a better choice than a Penman beaver, since it has a felt that will be more true to the Raiders felt and it reputedly has the original block. However, thinking back, I think a Penman rabbit would also be a great choice in that regard - I just hear so little about them on this forum that I almost forgot they exist when I originally made that post. Basically, the point of my post was to provide some good reasons for why the Henry would be a good choice as well, since I think a lot of the people who had responded so far had been in such a hurry to extol the Penman's many virtues that they all but ignored those of the Henry. -M

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:35 pm

Mulceber wrote:Well I'm just stating that in terms of making a screen-accurate Raiders hat, I think an AB Henry would be a better choice than a Penman beaver, since it has a felt that will be more true to the Raiders felt and it reputedly has the original block. However, thinking back, I think a Penman rabbit would also be a great choice in that regard - I just hear so little about them on this forum that I almost forgot they exist when I originally made that post. Basically, the point of my post was to provide some good reasons for why the Henry would be a good choice as well, since I think a lot of the people who had responded so far had been in such a hurry to extol the Penman's many virtues that they all but ignored those of the Henry. -M

I agree the Henry is a great hat for the Raiders. It's very floppy even with the beaver felt in it. I just didn't understand that one part.

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:00 pm

Thanks for chiming in, Oak. It must be nice to have people debating all your offerings in such high terms. Can't lose!

Now I'm rethinking the Henry: 1) I want a Raiders hat, 2) the Henry admittedly makes a great Raiders hat, 3) its largely rabbit for the floppiness, yet has a smidge of beaver for durability, and 4) is obviously a high-quality item with a great pedigre. And, while I certainly can wait, it would be nice to have it ASAP. Hmmm . . .

I guess I just need to decide whether I want a great blended/factory-made hat that will last for years or a handmade beaver hat that will last . . . forever.

RZ

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:54 pm

RaiderZee wrote:Thanks for chiming in, Oak. It must be nice to have people debating all your offerings in such high terms. Can't lose!

Now I'm rethinking the Henry: 1) I want a Raiders hat, 2) the Henry admittedly makes a great Raiders hat, 3) its largely rabbit for the floppiness, yet has a smidge of beaver for durability, and 4) is obviously a high-quality item with a great pedigre. And, while I certainly can wait, it would be nice to have it ASAP. Hmmm . . .

I guess I just need to decide whether I want a great blended/factory-made hat that will last for years or a handmade beaver hat that will last . . . forever.

RZ

Not to make your life harder but I do make handmade rabbit hats.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:59 pm

Well that's the beauty of this debate - you can't lose. No matter what you decide, you'll get a first-rate hat. One thing I would point out though is that Rabbit could very well last a life time as well. We have plenty of rabbit fedoras from the 30's and 40's that are still around and on sale on ebay. The way I see it, Beaver you can beat the living heck out of it and it'll last forever, rabbit, you should be a little gentler with it if you want it to last that long. So I wouldn't discount the longevity of either the Henry or John's custom rabbit offerings. -M

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:02 am

You're wrong if you think my loyalties lie with John. No offense John but on reading my post again it does seem a little unfair towards Marc but it's hard to do justice in words. I'm actually just very fond of hand-made craftsmanship but didn't want to appear biased towards Marc.I am also a very BIG fan of Marc Kitter and I would personally rather get an ABD than any other hat, if the truth be told. But that wasnt the question and besides, i didnt want to appear biased. It's already been mentioned that the Henry uses the original Raiders block. So let me try again.

The Henry is made from far better quality materials and with more care for precision and attention to detail than any other factory hat on the market. It is probably as SA as possible and is probably the closest thing to an AB or AB Deluxe without the wait or the customer-specific tailor-made dimensions. Alsoits appearance is more rabbit and therefore SA but with 20% beaver for extra durability.

My last post may not have seemed very complimentary to Marc (and i deeply regret that because I'm a fan of Marc) but let's not forget, it's hard to compare these two products!

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:48 pm

Mulceber wrote: especially since Marc seems to think they have the original Raiders block. It's also a very high quality item, to the point where Marc recently took one in to a local hatter and asked someone with a long history of hat experience what he thought of it and the guy said he thought it was worth something like $800. Make no mistake, this is one of the best Indy hats on the market, period. -M

This is why I pulled the string today. This hat is undervalued, and I suspect its value and price may increase in the not so distant future.

...then again, this is exactly what i look for. Great value for the money.

generalFROSTY · Post by **generalFROSTY** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:28 pm

I'm a new here and it's threads like this that really make your head spin! What i have learned in my time researching this hat is that in the end, it's reall all a matter of preference (same goes for the jacket). Pretty much all the hats owned by members here (except the stock licensed versions) have the 'Indy' look. Which 'look' and 'feel' do you want?
It's tough, so I decided to collect a few hats - my first being a Henry (because I need it in time for a trip) the second will be one of John's handmade rabbits and I might pick up an AB handmade down the road.
It's a fun hobby no doubt - and the hunt is half the fun, so enjoy!

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:49 pm

Unless I had a rush for a hat, I would go with the handmade. The Henry, while undoubtedly nice, is a factory hat. I don't believe that any factory hat can match that of a bespoke hat by someone who knows the craft.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:33 pm

crismans wrote:Unless I had a rush for a hat, I would go with the handmade. The Henry, while undoubtedly nice, is a factory hat. I don't believe that any factory hat can match that of a bespoke hat by someone who knows the craft.

I would generally agree but would only ad that the Henry is a really nice hat despite of it being a factory made hat. Okay, mine isn't stock any more since I had Marc reblock it to my size, but I can still clearly remember how impressed I was when I got it. It might not be a bespoke/custom hat, but it is the closest a factory hat can come to that quality IMO.

Time permitting, i would also go for a custom hat though, just saying the Henry is not to be sneezed at

Regards, Geert

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:18 pm

Snapbrim76 wrote: It's already been mentioned that the Henry uses the original Raiders block.

I think it should be clarified that this is nothing but speculation. No one knows where the original Raiders block was or is. I have had a Henry and while I think its a tremendous hat, and makes a nice Raiders hat, it is not the block in my opinion. Other blocks out there are closer. Steve Delk has gone on record here as saying he doesn't think it is a completely accurate Raiders block either, before anyone writes me off as a crank.
Everyone's free to have their opinion of course, but rumor and speculation have a way of becoming "fact" here on COW, unless nipped in the bud.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:43 pm

gwyddion wrote:
crismans wrote:Unless I had a rush for a hat, I would go with the handmade. The Henry, while undoubtedly nice, is a factory hat. I don't believe that any factory hat can match that of a bespoke hat by someone who knows the craft.
I would generally agree but would only ad that the Henry is a really nice hat despite of it being a factory made hat. Okay, mine isn't stock any more since I had Marc reblock it to my size, but I can still clearly remember how impressed I was when I got it. It might not be a bespoke/custom hat, but it is the closest a factory hat can come to that quality IMO.

Time permitting, i would also go for a custom hat though, just saying the Henry is not to be sneezed at

Regards, Geert

Yeah, don't get me wrong.

From everything I've read and the one I've seen in passing, I feel that the Henry is very probably the best factory hat on the market. But, I feel that any factory hat, even the Henry, would be hard-pressed to match up completely with a bespoke hat from a great hatter. It's just the nature of the beast.

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:34 pm

A Henry would be fun...but a custom hat is a CUSTOM HAT.

All things being equal, I would chose a PENMAN over a Henry.

Johnny

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:39 pm

Even if it is "the block" the mix of rabbit and beaver does change things. Every felt re acts differently. Not only do you have to get the block shape right but you have to get the block right for every type of felt.

Indy77 · Post by **Indy77** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:20 am

John,

What are your wait times as of now for one of your custom beaver or rabbit hats?

John

Just to add to the conversation.... I feel that the Henry is a great hat (I have one myself), but its not custom hat. I have to wonder if the 20% beaver adds to its durability, or does it just give it a more high end feel? If I had the time and money to spend I'd have to go with a custom hat.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:20 am

Indy77 wrote:John,

What are your wait times as of now for one of your custom beaver or rabbit hats?

John

Just to add to the conversation.... I feel that the Henry is a great hat (I have one myself), but its not custom hat. I have to wonder if the 20% beaver adds to its durability, or does it just give it a more high end feel? If I had the time and money to spend I'd have to go with a custom hat.

My wait times are around 5 months. That is a estimation. I'm working on two things to cut the time down a little and to cut down re-block and refurbish lead times greatly.

20% does give the hat more durabilty as well as a nicer finish than just a rabbit hat.

mcmanm · Post by **mcmanm** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:23 am

Oak,

Just a question since you have now both made and reblocked hats for me. Are you saying that a reblock won't take as long as making a new hat? If true, that would be great!

Matt

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:18 am

mcmanm wrote:Oak,

Just a question since you have now both made and reblocked hats for me. Are you saying that a reblock won't take as long as making a new hat? If true, that would be great!

Matt

Thats what I'm working on. New handmade hat around 5 months and a re-block around a month or so.

mcmanm · Post by **mcmanm** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:33 am

That is great news. If i'm not mistaken, I should be getting my Grey CS sent back any day now. I ordered a reblock of my Hero CS on your new block about a month ago thinking it would be 5 months or so. Maybe it won't take so long $\:D/$ .

Matt

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:47 pm

generalFROSTY wrote:I'm a new here and it's threads like this that really make your head spin! What i have learned in my time researching this hat is that in the end, it's reall all a matter of preference (same goes for the jacket). Pretty much all the hats owned by members here (except the stock licensed versions) have the 'Indy' look. Which 'look' and 'feel' do you want?
It's tough, so I decided to collect a few hats - my first being a Henry (because I need it in time for a trip) the second will be one of John's handmade rabbits and I might pick up an AB handmade down the road.
It's a fun hobby no doubt - and the hunt is half the fun, so enjoy!

Yes, when that happens I just focus on all the photos I can get, they usually tend to do a better job of telling the story, and of course each person's interpretation of the what they see can be different, hence the many variables and commentary. I know which one I would pick, but that may be irrelevant since both are good and a preference is again based on personal perception.