Alright, since everyone is "whipping" theirs out..

DGeraths · Post by **DGeraths** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:46 pm

I have been using a whip since I was about 11 years old or so, since 1977 anyway. Yes... BEFORE the movie. I have had dozens of whips through the years and have tried about every brand out there. Believe it or not, some of the cheezy wooden handles whips are actually some of the most fun. But by far, the best whip I own in my D. Morgan.

Here is a photo of my DM whip. Note that I had him do a couple of modifications when making mine. I never liked the wrist loop, always gets in my way so I asked him not to include it. My wife of 15 years knew that I had wanted one of these for most of my life and she saved her dimes and nickels for nearly a year to buy me one. She just walked up one day with cash in hand and told me to order my whip. What a gal!

It is pretty heavy but it moves smoother than any other I have. There are some out there that are close, but nothing really beats a Morgan. I need to scarf up another one soon, perhaps at least one with the loop. Who knows.

sab04 · Post by **sab04** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:01 pm

When did DM make that whip? I;ve never seen one of his whips look like that. Still looks good. nice whip
-scott

DGeraths · Post by **DGeraths** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:10 pm

I purchased the whip probably somewhere around 5 years ago or so.

sab04 · Post by **sab04** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:37 pm

Thats not his indy style. what did you ask for? I didn't know he made whips like that.

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:24 pm

Welcome to the forums, DGeraths.

I'm going to go out on what I see to be a very sturdy limb and say that the bullwhip you have pictured is not a David Morgan. No way. Everything about it is wrong. The knots, the grip pattern, the width of the strands, the uneven taper, lumpy thong, four plait point, etc. None of it is constructed Morgan style.

I don't believe you are lying so please don't be offended. Something isn't right though.

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:32 pm

Not a DM Indy whip, but perhaps Morgan makes other styles differently?

Welcome to COW, DGeraths.

And Good too see you poppin in now and then, Edge!

Regards,

Farn

Mola Ram · Post by **Mola Ram** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:38 pm

Ive got to aggree with kyle,
that does not look like a morgan at all.
he never ends in 4 plait and the lumps
and fall are not morgan looking quality.
He would never use strands of irregular
size for the knot.
Sorry

to say that is NOT a morgan.
molorom

DGeraths · Post by **DGeraths** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:01 pm

Yeah.... what do I know.... I am just the guy who purchased it from him.

JerseyJones · Post by **JerseyJones** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:31 pm

DGeraths wrote:Yeah.... what do I know.... I am just the guy who purchased it from him.

Was this a full custom order ? When did you get it ?

K

zohar · Post by **zohar** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:58 pm

That is an incredibly unusual Morgan. If I'm not mistaken, The_Edge is very familiar with Mr. Morgan's work, having spent quite a bit of time in his shop. I think this is why he is able to say that he believes it's not a Morgan.

May I ask what you specified when you ordered it?

DGeraths · Post by **DGeraths** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:56 pm

I know I am new here, but geez guys....

(sigh)

I ordered it several years ago and requested that it be made in the same fashion as a "Zorro" style whip but in a medium to dark brown. I don't remember the exact specifics of the rest of the order.
I paid quite a bit for it and it took about 3 weeks to get it. Other than that I do not know what to tell you. I have a fairly busy life and I did not burn the specifics of the order into my permanent memory so that I would be well prepared when the maker of this particular whip became a debate subject...

Regardless, I clearly remember ordering it from Morgan. Whether or not any of you believe it is a Morgan whip or not is of no concern to me. I am the one who ordered it and currently owns it.

To be honest, I find this whole debate rather silly.

zohar · Post by **zohar** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:05 am

Very interesting!

jerryrwm · Post by **jerryrwm** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:09 am

Yanno, I thought this thread was getting a little obnoxious when people started questioning the validity of the statements made by the whip owner, whip purchaser....

We have had comments by people who have only seen pictures of DM's whips, others who have never actually owned a whip, and others who have not seen every whip that DM ever made, and others who just wanted to say 'me too'...I wonder where the expertise comes from? As a whipmaker, I make whips of every different type. Some have long handles, some have short handles. Some end in 4, 6, 8, or 10 strands at the fall hitch, others end in 6 stand and are made with a 'snakeshead' hitch. Some have hang straps, some have pineapple knots, some have turk's head knots and I have even used headhunter knots, and a plethora of other knots that most people wouldn't recognize.

Now if someone tells me that he or she ordered a whip from a particular whipmaker then I am going to have to take them at their word. For someone to make a fllatout statement that basically calls someone a liar is not very polite, especially since they just joined the list and don't know the pecking order, and who to salute and who not to.

So, maybe someone could trot a copy of the picture over to Mr. Morgan and find out for sure. That way we all could rest easy.

Just sticking my nose in and stirring the pot a bit.

Jerry R

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:26 am

Sorry, DGeraths, I didn't mean to sound as if I was questioning you on the maker of your whip; I firmly believe that it IS a Dave Morgan. You've no reason to make something like that up and as you said in your first post you ordered it from him some time ago;

I was merely suggesting to the general readership that it was not a DM Indy whip, which is was most of us are familiar with and take to be the "norm", a fact which you made mention of, again, in your first post.

I certainly hope you were not offended by me, nor by anyone else's comments. I think it's a misunderstanding; people taking DM's Indy WHips to being the ONLY style of Whips he made.

However common it is for a craftsman to have a distinct style, it is rare that things are ever ALWAYS the same. After all, if Da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa on EVERY picture he did, it wouldn't be so special. And, by seeing the Mona Lisa and ASSUMING that all the paintings will look like that one would be making a mistake.

There I go, over-making a point again ;D

Again, my apologies.

Warm regards,

Farn

Canasta · Post by **Canasta** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:33 pm

DGeraths,
Whip aside,
Those are some of the coolest models I have seen. So very nice. The detailis really amazing. The weathering is fantastic!!!

Everyone who has any interest in models should check out his link.

All the best,
C

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:23 pm

I visited DM’s shop and spoke with him this morning around 11:30AM.

David’s initial observations of the above photo are as follows:

-When he has made a special orders with out a wrist loop he does not close up the knot at the top. It stays open as if it did have the loop. He has not done this in years and often times just tells folks who do not want the loop to cut it off.

-The handle is much longer than anything he has ever made.

-The thong’s taper and lumpiness are not his at all. (He made this point a couple times.)

-He has never ended a twelve plait whip with a four plait point.

I made the point of asking David if he makes special orders that are drastically different from his “Indy” style of bullwhip. His answer was no. I asked him if he has altered the basic design of his whips over the decades. His answer was no. He added that he has been refining this bullwhip from the beginning but most of those refinements were to the interior construction of the whip and not the aesthetics. I also asked if he had anyone working for him several years go that may have farmed out work. His answer was emphatically no.

Below the photo I had written your name. David asked if this was the name of the owner and I replied yes. He then went across the room to where his wife Dorothy was working on the computer and had her search their database for any orders under this name. D. Gareth of Salem, Oregon made an order in 1997 but canceled it.

Mr. Das · Post by **Mr. Das** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:36 pm

That's a pretty detailed explanation.

DGeraths · Post by **DGeraths** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:57 pm

I guess I must be lying so that I can impress a bunch of people who already own Morgan whips so that I too can be part of the "elite" who own any number of the HUNDREDS of whips this man has made...

The fact is, I purchased it from the Morgan shop. If it is truly not his than I suggest two explanations...

1. He is old and simply doesn't remember making this whip, one of, again, HUNDREDS that he has made over many many years... or

2. One of his workers is sneaking out their own work from his studio.

What it boils down to "The_Edge" is that you clearly have the talent of persistence... it is to bad it is coupled with a clear lack of politeness. The fact that you even decided to make this such an issue is clear enough evidence to show that you have little in your life to do and apparently just served as another way in which you could "impress" us all that you know David Morgan... Okay, we get it... you know him.

Big deal.

I stand by my statement that this whip was purchased from the studio of David Morgan. Was I handed this whip in person by the man himself? No. The fact is, I frankly have NO reason to lie about something like this... especially to a rude, overbearing blowhard with an overblown sense of importance such as yourself.

If D. Morgan himself takes issue than I would suggest you go back to his studio, climb back onto his lap and tell him to contact me directly. I will not converse with you about this again.

Cheers.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:05 pm

Wow! I leave for a few days and a bar room brawl. What can I say, I totally agree with the facts. I know David Morgan too. I studied his whips for so long, that I have been called to authenticate his whips for people. Including a whip that was made around the same time as Raiders. I have interviewed David at length. I just have to agree that there is no way David Morgan has made this whip. One fact stands clear. When I asked him about the way he does the knots, his answer is "I only do them one way". " I hate doing knots". Since he only does knots in one way, that is not a David Morgan knot. The other telltale give, is the 4 plait point. I have never seen that before on a DM.

I don't know what to tell you, DGareths. It's quite embarassing. The shop keeps records of all transactions, and yours was clearly recorded and cancelled.

Let's just call it a bad day and go on, is my recommendation. I hate to see things like this happen. But my creditablity is on the line too. Remember: I authenticate Morgan's. In fact I just sent a "Certificate of Authentication" out to someone earlier this week, with a letter that shows the methods I used. Facts are facts...

-Sergei

DGeraths · Post by **DGeraths** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:48 pm

I have worked with museums and curators all over the country and have appraised and authenticated all kinds of items, from items millions of years old to the space age... I would NEVER make such an appraisal by using one photo over the internet as my reference.

If you are handing out certificates of authenticity based on single photos on the net than your certificates certainly wouldn't be worth the paper they are printed in the museum community.

I wouldn't even assume to give such a rock solid remark on any object without examining it first hand.

You folks believe what you like.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:04 pm

You are right, it usually takes several pictures to make it a candidate for being authentic. If it's a real valueable whip, I usually come out with my caliper and take measurements. In addition, I examine all the knots. I know my stuff, at least Morgan whips. But the above picture is so obvious.Yes, with one picture you can exclude by the obvious. The obvious? The taper is not uniform, the handle length is too long for him, the knot at the transition is not his style and it's lumpy, in addition to the previously mentioned heel knot and the 4 plait point. On the handle length, he never uses more than an 8 inch nail spike. He will never, ever make a handle that goes beyond the nail spike. It produces a whip that will fail beyone the junction of the handle and thong. The above pictured whip, has to be a nail spike in the 10 to 12 inch range. He never has any spike like that in his supply cabinet.

Tell you what. You give Morgan a call and tell us the results. He already has the picture. I will be glad to retract my words and quit being a moderator here, if I am proved wrong. I feel that strongly about it.

-S
p.s. All the authentications I sent, were done in person. So pictures are just an aid, until you see it in person.

DGeraths · Post by **DGeraths** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:26 pm

For one... it is a PHOTO... you are not examining the whip in person.

The handle length on this whip from the end to the top is just short of 8 inches, NOT 10 or 12 inches...

The "lumps" in the length are probably caused by years of hard use, not the whimpy grass yard, leg slapping type of use that most people seems to give their whips.

This is stupid...

I know where I got the whip and now someone I don't even know on some "Indiana Jones" forum on the internet is taking issue with it... Should I give a ####? Hardly. I got a life a long time ago. This conversation would have been important when I was 15 years old, but it just isn't now.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:33 pm

You are right. Let's go on. Life is short, the holidays are coming up and there are a lot more things to discuss that are much more important. Peace....

-Sergei

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:06 pm

BTW, Mr. Gerath, you have some serious Paleo Art talent. Superb!!

sab04 · Post by **sab04** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:01 pm

Its not a morgan. accept it

sorry......I only have a few more years to be immature

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:33 pm

sab04 wrote:Its not a morgan. accept it

sorry......I only have a few more years to be immature

Hey you sorry Red Sox fan, check your email. There's a picture there for you to look at!

Jim

JerseyJones · Post by **JerseyJones** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:36 pm

Okay gang.

Look, I am not a mod. Don't even aspire to it. But this is VERY uncharacteristic of this board.

On another fan board that is more general that I won't name ( tho it could be an abbreviation of R ice P ila F ) I see this type of flame fest all the time and that's why I sort of left it alone for a while.

The whip, to my eye, doesn't look very Morgan like, but I am not about to suggest that someone new, who comes here for the fun of it, is stupid or a liar for having a different story than someone else does about a DM whip.

The story may not add up based on our experiences, but I am sure we don't have all the facts out yet. And, moreover, without the benefit of vocal inflection, some of this discussion plays out like an interrogation, probably unintentionally.

DGerath, welcome aboard. I'd personally be interested hearing about any follow ups to your story or your call to DM to clear this up. I look at it as a possible new page in the history of a rare and dying craft.

We can/should be skeptical and critical, but we must remain respectful, until given a solid reason to indicate that there is no respect deserved.

My . 02.

Peace

Ken

sab04 · Post by **sab04** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 8:36 am

Hey you sorry Red Sox fan, check your email. There's a picture there for you to look at!

YEAH JIM!!!!!!!!! very SWEET!!!!!!!!!!! uh oh...I just spilled soda on the keyboard...gotta go

Whiper Jones · Post by **Whiper Jones** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:47 am

DGeraths wrote:I know where I got the whip and now someone I don't even know on some "Indiana Jones" forum on the internet is taking issue with it... Should I give a ####? Hardly. I got a life a long time ago. This conversation would have been important when I was 15 years old, but it just isn't now.

I wonder why you are in this forum then
if you think these things are not important
or this hobby should not be part of anyones life...?
Your acting IS like 15 years old.

WhipDude · Post by **WhipDude** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:24 am

Hey Dgeraths! You know what I like about you? You stick with what you think is right. Common you guys lets not fight. i know some of us are adults here and you guys arent acting very adultish. He's new and you guys are exactly being the kindest(certain people) Does DM send you guys a recpiect when you get this stuff? if so and you still have the recpeict dude take a picture of it and post it! Personally I dont care if its a DM or not , DGeraths you should be happpy that you even have such a great looking whip. You guys need to ease here.

Alright, since everyone is "whipping" theirs out..

Alright, since everyone is "whipping" theirs out..

...

chill