SoC hat - art or a fluke?

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:52 am

How did the Streets of Cairo hat get such a beautiful shape? Did the hat just happen to bulge along the top of the ribbon when DN sat on it? Or did she guide the creases before she sat on it? Or is the bulging a result of the ribbon being tightened? Did they wet it? Was it anything to do with the sweatband being cut or folded?

On top of that WHY was it turned? It looks fantastic but was it deliberate?

Anyone who has a rabbit hat will know it takes a lot to get that SoC look but was it a beautiful sculpture by a talented costume designer or was it just a lucky fluke?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:59 am

This has been debated all over the place!

This is the singular most debated, analyzed,and discussed, Indy hat of the whole lot. Everything from the stitches to the turn to the felt to the shaping have been discussed over the years and folks have tried everything short of hopping in a time machine to replicate or figure that hat out.

I think it ALL comes into play as to how that hat turned out for the film.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:11 am

No way, Bink! It came right off the block looking just like that, dirt and all. And I won't believe anthing else.

No I won't.

(stomps foot for emphasis)

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:28 am

I think a lot of the hat was DL but some of what you see was an
accident. I think where the hat buckled over the ribbon was a accident but the turn was her. I think things like crown height, brim specs, color and ribbon color and over all look was all hers. The distressed look was all hers but I don't think she was aiming for a buckle right over the ribbon. Just that the hat be dusty, sweatstand, and well worn.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:03 am

think a lot of the hat was DL but some of what you see was an
accident. I think where the hat buckled over the ribbon was a accident but the turn was her. I think things like crown height, brim specs, color and ribbon color and over all look was all hers. The distressed look was all hers but I don't think she was aiming for a buckle right over the ribbon. Just that the hat be dusty, sweatstand, and well worn.

And I agree totally.

How did the Streets of Cairo hat get such a beautiful shape?

It's in the eye of the beholder. For some of us, or most of us, it is the perfect adventure hat, but for most hat wearers, of yesteryear and today, it looks, WORN OUT, and in need of replacement.(or a refurb) It's a matter of perspective.

I am about to make a SOC-ish fedora today, but it won't be nearly as good as what Holt has turned out here. I don't have a couple of weeks to work on it.

But when I do make these hats, its hard for me to crush up a new hat, and cover it with fullers earth, and send off a hat that doesn't look brand new. And to NOT tack down the ribbon so it will slide up. But, I do as folks request. Even when it goes against my grain.

I love the SOC hat of course, but I also like the other, non tapered hats in this film. Remember, some of the hats were tapered, for whatever reason in Raiders. So, I like the straigter models in this film. Fedora

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:09 pm

Thank you to John and Steve for getting the ball rolling. Bink i appreciate that many may have debated this, i thought i'd revealed my knowledge of past debates in the question. I just wanted to give my angle on it.

In my opinion the creased could have happened naturally by sitting on it. But it just seems too coincidental that the Raiders shape is the best bash for hiding taper. The turn creates reverse taper, the bulge creates a reverse taper illusion and the tightened ribbon and relaxed brim break all add to form a hat that is beautiful from all angles.

From personal experience a hat NEVER just falls into a nice beaten-up look if you just beat the crop out of it. It begins to taper and starts to look like the (IMO) ugly looking ToD hat. Besides it takes a lot of effort to achieve such distressing. If Debra had the inclination to spend to much time on it, should may well have either had a vision to mold it on, or a rough idea of what was needed.

Steve i appreciate what you mean that it may look horrible to a hatter of old, but I have never able to distressing a hat without thinking it looks terrible. Why is the Raiders hat such an exception in my eyes - and i'm really fussy. I can't even bash a hat without making it look perfectly bulge and buckle free, as if pre-bashed. When i see people with distressed hats I wanna grab it off their head and straighten their bash. However I don't feel that way about the SOC hat. Why?

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:07 pm

I seems possibly the hat was worn under the turban at Tannis. No one else (digger) at Tannis has such a big fluffy turban. This would have smashed the crown down over the ribbon. Tannis was filmed before Cairo. - The turn wasn't there on the dock or in the tarantula shot. It was made on the spot while filming the Peruvian Temple shot, and first apears in the whip swing over the pit.

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:04 am

Thanks 3thoubucks, by the way i liked your job on Mark Seven's SoC hat.

After having turned my Moonstone and seen how beautiful a turn can be if used for on a new hat, it is entirely possible that the turn was used to give the brim a bit of a swoop. But IMO there was another reason:

Its hard to make a hat look beaten and old and the turn puts just enough distortion in the brim to create a very effective uneven buckling. I think Debra's intensions were to make the hat look well used.

Dangerman009 · Post by **Dangerman009** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:04 am

I think it was probably a fluke.

In all the Cairo scenes the hat looked like it had the snot stomped out of it. According to the shooting schedule, the Cairo scenes were the last to be shot in Africa, and if that was the hero hat it was handled alot up to that point.

I think all the subtle nuances; the bulge, reverse taper, ribbon higher than the brim break, etc. was the result of the weather and abuse it had taken. In that way I think it's a fluke, but in looking at it, it's a work of art. Bob Ross would say it was a "happy accident."

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:44 am

From personal experience a hat NEVER just falls into a nice beaten-up look if you just beat the crop out of it. It begins to taper and starts to look like the (IMO) ugly looking ToD hat

You just not have run into the type of felt used on the Raiders fedora. I have had in hand, the exact same type of felt. It would literally bulge from sitting on it. I have always felt that the sort of felt used in the Raiders fedora is much of the look, in the SOC fedora.

I had an vintage HJ with this same type of felt. It would bulge out on the sides and back, seemingly from just gravity pulling it down!! Now, not right away, but after I wore it a couple of weeks, it started to bulge just like the SOC fedora. It was a very porous felt, not tightly felted, but did not taper, even if you got caught in a rain. Of course, it was OLD. But the bulging just happened to this hat naturally. In general, a hatters nightmare if I may be so bold to say, because if he made a particular hat from this felt, it would not keep the shaped he blocked into it for very long.

I really believe this is the sort of felt used by Swales to bespoke the Raiders fedora. But no one makes it today, or at least I have not seen the exact same kind that was on my vintage HJ. My other vintage HJs did not have this type of felt used. Those later HJs had a much tighter, and what a hatter would regard as a better felt.

I really do think if we could get this Raiders felt today, all problems with the distressed look would be solved, because all one would have to do is to sit on this hat and you would get the bulges. I have seen this with my own eyes, and LLS as well had this hat in hand for awhile. To get out the bulges, all I had to do was to steam the hat well and press in on the bulges, and they straightened back up. UNTIL I wore it for a few more weeks. Then the bulges returned.

So IMHO, it is all about the felt used. Nothing more. Fedora

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:27 am

right, the felt.. I had a INCREDIBLE hard time making the bulge on a 100% beaver hat.

but the felt on the fed 4 is actually pretty easy to get the bulge out and reverse taper.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:32 pm

right, the felt.. I had a INCREDIBLE hard time making the bulge on a 100% beaver hat.

but the felt on the fed 4 is actually pretty easy to get the bulge out and reverse taper.

The thing is, pure beaver is generally such a high quality felt that it takes extraordinary techniques to get it to bulge. Mechanical help. But that is the nature of a great hat, this tendency not to bulge. From a regular hatters point of view, I must add.

The Akubras, even the Fed 4 is not the same felt I am speaking of. The Akubras don't bulge on their own, even if you sit on them. They snap back to the block shape, UNLESS you use other methods to get the bulge.

The HJ felt I use to use, prior to this heavy weight stock we are using now for Indy Mag's hats, tended to bulge more than the Akubras, with help of course, but still neither the Akubra or the current HJ felt is the same I am speaking of here. You would have to see it in hand Holt to see what I am talking about. As far as felt is concerned, this vintage HJ I am referring to, exhibits characteristics seen in the Raiders fedora, and it doesn't take any magic to get the bulging SOC hat. It just morphs into it, with no trouble whatsoever. A dream to work with, if you were making SOC hats. Because, you could send this hat crisp with the Raiders blockshape, and it would morph into the SOC hat with ease. It really is all about the felt. And as I have said ad nauseum, this felt is no longer available from the feltmakers that I am familiar with. But with only 7 or 8 feltmakers around these days, apparently, whomever made this felt is a now defunct company. The hat world is very small these days. It was not always so. I would not be surprised if the Raider felt actually came from South Africa, from the factory there that was in business for eons, and then closed down, due to lack of demand for hats. But, it held on until just a couple of decades ago(not exactly sure when they closed the doors) And this was the main source for some felt bodies for Barons back when Eddie, the master hatter ran that business. Also Milano Hats, who changed to Portugal felt for their dress hats when the South African company went under. And of course, the South African company made various grades of fur felt, and I would bet HJ used their cheaper bodies, hence the bulging Raiders fedora. While Milano, used their top drawer bodies. Milano was ALWAYS about quality, and that is why they went with Portugal, once they lost their long time orginal supplier for dress bodies.

Back a couple years ago, the buyer for SAB, went to China for HJ bodies, but decided NOT to use them, thank goodness. Instead, they went back to an older supplier, that they had at one time used. Remember, HJ changed suppliers many times in their life. As we approach the current time, they seemed to buy cheap, and sell high. But, at one time, HJ was known for fine hats, back when the cost of the hat body was not as important as it is today. But, that same thing happnened to other hatmakers once hats fell out of fashion. So, it has been a trend in hatmaking for quite sometime.

Even Akubra has suffered, because a vintage Akubra was a better hat than what we have today. I saw a collection of old Akubras once, and there is no comparison to the modern Akubra. It's just the nature of what happens when demand for hats plummets. The hatmakers no longer care, as the astute customers are no longer buying hats. So, they make em fast and as cheaply as they can, in order to sell hats. And to compare a vintage Boraslino to a modern one is like apples to oranges. There is no comparion.

But even with that said, the type of felt used on the Raiders fedora is not available today. If it were, we all would be buying it for our SOC fedoras, the hatmakers that is. I am lucky to have actually seen this type of felt, so I know it did exist at one time. And although it probably was not the high end felt, it was still better than modern rabbit, and Screenused pics of his film Raiders fedora proves that. Sure, I can tell the hat had tapered, in the areas that generally show taper first, but it still looked pretty good. IF you took a modern Christy or HJ and used that in Raiders, it would have morphed into a short little cone by now. I know this as a fact, having worked with the HJ felt for a long time. And then being lucky enough to own a few vintage HJs, only one of which showed the Raiders characteristics, of bulging easily. Once you actually see this type of felt, it becomes very obvious that the felt used in the Raiders fedora is much of the look of the distressed hat in that film. Fur felt can vary so much from factory to factory. Some of this is attributed to the different brands of felting machines, as there were several different types. Or even the type of rabbit fur used, whether is was domestic rabbit, or wild rabbit. Akubra at one time used their wild rabbit population, which is the BEST rabbit fur to use in a hat. I heard they no longer use it, but cannot say for sure. And, in D. Henderson's Hat Talk book, one hatmaker said the best rabbit always came from Australia, back in the old days. But, it cost more than domesticated rabbits, for obvious reasons. Afterall, the fur from the domesticated rabbits was a by product(those rabbit were used for food in Europe) while the wild rabbits were trapped JUST for their fur. And any hatter who had a choice, would use wild rabbit as it is superiour fur for hatmaking. I have drifted off topic...again. But its hard to have this knowledge and not share it.

The only company that COULD still possibly make this bulging sort of felt is Tonak. They make nothing but various grades of rabbit felt bodies. In their selection, they MAY still offer this sort of felt I saw in the vintage HJ I use to own. But Tonak is a LONG ways from here, and I know of no hatter who uses them, except the hats sold cheap at that store we talked about a few times in the past here. Their name escapes me at the moment, but they used Tonak bodies for their hats. OH, just recalled it, Burlington, I think. I would love to go there(Tonak) and just see if they made this type of rabbit felt.
Or better yet, find an American supplier of the Tonak bodies. But, I think you have to order directly from Tonak. And then you would have to know WHICH rabbit body of theirs is like the Raiders felt, as they offer quite a diverse selection of rabbit bodies. Probably running from less than 5 bucks per body to a hundred bucks per body for their top of the line rabbit. And this is the reason you could not that long ago buy an Official Indy fedora for less than a bill, maybe much less, because the rabbit body used only cost the hatmaker 3 or 4 bucks!! Add another 5 bucks for ribbon, sweat and liner and the low retail is understandable. If you sell a 10 dollar hat for 60 bucks, that's a real healthy profit margin. But you get what you pay for, in the end. Perhaps I should change my name from Fedora, to Off Topic Fedora. It would nail me pretty good!

Fedora

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:24 pm

I always love reading your posts, Steve. Really educational!

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:29 pm

jlee562 wrote:I always love reading your posts, Steve. Really educational!

I agree.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:34 pm

count me in

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:06 pm

Thanks guys for putting up with my long posts, and thanks even more to those that enjoy reading them.

Before I ever got into hatmaking, I was reading everything I could find about this topic. I have read the Henderson book 4 or 5 times over the past couple of years, where she talked to alot of the old guys still alive at that time, and many who had started working in those old hat factories when they were kids! No joke. That book is so full of great info about the hat biz, along with tidbits every now and then on techniques used. I highly reccomend it.

But even in this book, the experts either were misquoted, or in their advance age, suffered from brain farts. One guy made the statement that pure beaver fur would not felt, by itself, but had to have rabbit added in order for it to felt. Which was, and is, complete nonsense. I was surprised when the author did not call him on this supposed fact. Heck, they were making pure beaver hats long before this guy was born, even as old as he was!! But this was the only thing in her book that was wrong. Perhaps this guy worked for a company that never sold pure beaver hats!

THAT would explain it. Fedora

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:04 pm

Thanks for your fascinating posts Steve. I don't think you went off topic at all. Your point was valid, we only see an inferior type of felt these days in the name of profit in an industry all but redundant.

I still think that Debra's talent came into play with with the bash and overall design.

inexpensive_jones · Post by **inexpensive_jones** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:15 pm

The fluke isn't so much how the hat came into being, but how so many of us have responded to it!

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:57 pm

Fedora wrote:
From personal experience a hat NEVER just falls into a nice beaten-up look if you just beat the crop out of it. It begins to taper and starts to look like the (IMO) ugly looking ToD hat
You just not have run into the type of felt used on the Raiders fedora. I have had in hand, the exact same type of felt. It would literally bulge from sitting on it. I have always felt that the sort of felt used in the Raiders fedora is much of the look, in the SOC fedora.

So IMHO, it is all about the felt used. Nothing more. Fedora

Hey! I was just being a wiseacre, but I was actually sort of right, the SOC did come (more or less) off the block that way. Sort of right? A little bit?

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:59 am

Hey! I was just being a wiseacre, but I was actually sort of right, the SOC did come (more or less) off the block that way. Sort of right? A little bit?

Not sure exactly what you mean, so I will just say if you look at the opening hat of Raiders, the new looking one that he wears until he has that scene outside of the cave, that is what the hat looked like prior to the distressing, IMO. Once he moves inside the cave, the hat changes.

But if you are thinking that the SOC hat came off the block with those bulges in place, no way!

But not impossible to make a block that mimics this look. I bet one day someone here will do so. LLS moved in that direction, IMO with his block. Fedora

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:23 am

Ok well thats the felt clarified. Now what about the turn?

I've already said above I think it may have been deliberately to give the brim a distorted, uneven and well-worn look. But could it have been Debra (who would have already been familiar with the turn being used in the 30s with a stiff brim to give a stylish swoop) using her knowledge of costum, aiming for period accuracy? I'm still undecided on this matter. One thing i'm sure about, it wasn't accidental.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:13 am

Fedora wrote:

But if you are thinking that the SOC hat came off the block with those bulges in place, no way! But not impossible to make a block that mimics this look. I bet one day someone here will do so. LLS moved in that direction, IMO with his block. Fedora

Mostly my ill-begotten attempt at being funny.

My original posted reply to Bink was made in jest that the SOC hat came directly off the block looking like it did in the movie: sweat, dirt and all. Obviously that didn't happen.

But then Fedora posted that due to the kind of felt used, the SOC look could be achieved relatively easily and the hat almost did so on its own with regular use. So, my attempt to be funny that the hat did come off the block looking like SOC.

Any joke that requires this much explanation just ain't funny. Every now and again I think I can make a funny like Bink, but then I realize I can't.

He has "years of field work on the subject."

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:35 am

I knew it was a joke IJ. But plenty of hat makers including Akubra make hats blocked with a crease. None that i know of make them with a turn.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:38 am

what I think personally is that the SoC hat is the hat when Indy jumps in the water running from the hovitos.

the hat was soaked and they needed to let it dry. they took of the ribbon and gave it a quick reblocking. then sewed the ribbon and bow back on, but this time they were a bit unsure about were the bow sat. so they sewed it back on in hope that it was in the right place... when they put the hat back on Ford they saw it was complelty of. so what did they do? they turned the hat so the bow sat more above his ear. So IMO this could explain the turn. also it could explain why the ribbon is higher placed on the hat then any of the other hats in the movie. and the bulge if the ribbon was sewn tight back on....

this one...

I dont know... could be?

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:59 am

The Hawai/Hovitos scenes were filmed after the Tunisa/SOC stuff so it can't be the hat that went into the River.
Also,all the studio scenes were shot before they went to Tunisia so the turn was already in the hat before the SOC scenes.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:06 am

oh really? I didnt know that..

thanx

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:21 am

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:42 pm

Nice idea Holt. Thanks Mark Seven for the info.

However, surely they could have done some sort of screen tests and "dress rehearsals" before the actual filming took place. Is there a possibility the hat got wet before the filming?

I have another theory:

The dust on the SoC hat was mostly concentrated around and under the ribbon. Obviously in Debra's vision the hat would collect dust there. Could she have removed the ribbon in order to do this and wet it first to enable the dust to stick (or possibly to give the impression of sweat marks)? Then the fixing of the ribbon being tighter and higher may have been accidental. And as the hat dried with a tighter ribbon... Hey Presto - the bulge!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:01 pm

Indiana Jeff wrote:Every now and again I think I can make a funny like Bink, but then I realize I can't. He has "years of field work on the subject."

More like years of trial and error, but mostly error.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:44 am

Yeah, I posted this before I started the "hat under the turban" as a new topic. I probably should have waited untill this thread faded. I did a search in the Fedora category for "turban" and found the topic hadn't been discussed, at least not with the word "turban" in it. Thought it deserved at least one thread.

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:21 am

My theory is that it's the result of the hat being reversible. Brown hat, grey hat, brown hat, grey hat - they're all the same one, just flipped inside out.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:10 am

Sweet! I gotta cheeto that looks like Ernest Borgnine...well...a very young Ernest Borgnine.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:02 am

Hollowpond wrote:Sweet! I gotta cheeto that looks like Ernest Borgnine...well...a very young Ernest Borgnine.

What, like 2 weeks after conception?

As to the topic title: I think it's a bit of both. I mean DN did design the hat (distressing by means of sitting and all) but the Tunisian heat probably had something to do with it as well.

Regards, Geert

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:08 am

gwyddion wrote:As to the topic title: I think it's a bit of both. I mean DN did design the hat (distressing by means of sitting and all) but the Tunisian heat probably had something to do with it as well.

Not forgetting Ford's head!

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:11 am

_ wrote: Could somebody crack a window? Somebody's been running the Plymouth with the garage door closed...

You mean....you're not supposed to?

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:47 am

Actually, _, going by your picture, I'd say the world is full of grilled cheese sandwiches. This thread is making me thirsty!

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:08 am

_ wrote:I've been craving macaroni and cheese, but I'm afraid I'll see the image of Lady Gaga...

Oh, man ... that's my favourite! (MC, not Gaga)

Will you guys cut it out - I'm trying to work through lunch!

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:58 am

Thanks for the input. And there was me looking at felt types and ribbon stitching. I should have been studying gastronomy

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:39 am

_ wrote:
Snapbrim76 wrote:Thanks for the input. And there was me looking at felt types and ribbon stitching. I should have been studying gastronomy,
Naw... It's never a good chateaubriand... Fast food and snacks - but, hey he loves the poor, right? Guess that explains NASCAR?

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:41 am

Well i've only been here a few months, i'll probably get up to speed with time

Soup · Post by **Soup** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:48 pm

Snapbrim76 wrote:Well i've only been here a few months, i'll probably get up to speed with time

Don't worry, I rarely am up to speed

Now back to the topic, this weekend, my rabbit (Fed IV) after sitting in the sun for a few hours, was really tight on my head when I finally put it on. I happened to look at it in the mirror for a moment and thought it was bulging a little above the ribbon. It is not there now, but makes me wonder too if it was more of an combination of things that went "wrong" at the same time that gave it its great look? I am starting to think it was more of fluke than anything, the combination of things that just happenend to produce the end result, but not really an intentional result of what we see.

Regards,

Soup