The Bantu Wind discussions

[moses]

Does this suggest that Martin Grace originally had a "mismatched" jacket from batch 2 - that this jacket may have been relegated to purely stunt status (maybe for Terry Leonard) and that Grace then got a "hero replica" from batch 3, to fir in better for doubling, and not just purely stunt action. And that this jacket from the 3rd batch was used for Ford in Hawaii?

I think that's what I said?

Sorry, I was just trying to see if I understood you correctly.

[binkmeisterRick]

No worries, moses. With all the confusion regarding this subject, it doesn't hurt to make sure you got things straight.

[crismans]

You just beat me to it, Moses!

I've got to be walked through this stuff.

[moses]

I wonder if anyone could ask Mr. Grace whether he remembers having two different jackets during Raiders.

[Dutch_jones]

I wonder if anyone could ask Mr. Grace whether he remembers having two different jackets during Raiders.

Yes he mostly likely did, AS did Terry and also Vic, Terry had his stunt jacket and the jacket used in the truck drag scene, which are very different.

And Vic and Martin would have Doubles jackets and also stunt jackets Hope that clarifies it. ( Vic Double harrison on location ) Martin in the studio.

[Yojimbo Jones]

Robert Watts: "On Friday we had some night shooting to do on the dock. We actually finished La Rochelle fifteen minutes ahead of schedule. That had been a great concern to me because dealing with sea shots, you can go many days over just because of bad weather."

[Dutch_jones]

Robert Watts: "On Friday we had some night shooting to do on the dock. We actually finished La Rochelle fifteen minutes ahead of schedule. That had been a great concern to me because dealing with sea shots, you can go many days over just because of bad weather."

Thanks Yojimbo !:)

[Bullitt]

I'm watching Raiders right now and two things I noticed about the Bantu Wind scene. First, there seems to be some wind that comes in little gusts, which to me looks too natural to be from a studio shoot. Second, the 'Bantu Wind' seems to lay absolutely still in the open water, which strikes me as odd, if indeed filmed on location. So you see, these arguments contradict each other, but I thought it might be interesting for the sake of discussion.

Please don't hunt me down for throwing more gas on the fire.

[St. Dumas]

Yojimbo, where'd you get that Robert Watts quote from?

SD

[moses]

I wonder if anyone could ask Mr. Grace whether he remembers having two different jackets during Raiders.

Yes, I did... Yes, he did...

Ah, so the first ended up on TL and the second ended up on HF and being lent to TN.

[Yojimbo Jones]

Robert Watts: "On Friday we had some night shooting to do on the dock. We actually finished La Rochelle fifteen minutes ahead of schedule. That had been a great concern to me because dealing with sea shots, you can go many days over just because of bad weather."

LOL!

"Because it was a bust..."

Steven Spielberg

Really...

C'mon _, you wouldn't begrudge us wanting just ONE piece of SOLID evidence in the face of a LOT of clues that point to the exact opposite of a studio shoot. Nothing in that shot a simple dolly rig with jib arm couldn't achieve. I'm happy to pitch some questions if you're up to it?

(btw, Quote's from the complete making of book, btw, and "we quit early" isn't the inference.)

[moses]

Just when I thoight I'd figured out what you keep hinting at. I give up. If you are clearly in possession of the all facts why don't you just tell us?

[Mike]

I do not wish to lecture Logic 101.

Logic 101 clearly states that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few…or the one.

It also stands to reason that all the destroyed jackets were shot to a rapidly growing planet where they've regenerated to the point they age to the proper (actor's) age and can be plucked away at the last minute by kicking a taxi-driving Klingon into molten lava and beaming them back to us.

Live long and prosper.



…BTW, don't think that Trek reference has any relevance here? Young Spock was played by the tailor of a certain adventurers shirt, according to our Mr. Keppler.

[Mike]

Wait…we're still talking about Spock, right?

[binkmeisterRick]

I knew Alfred Hitchcock made a cameo in Raiders!

[kiltie]

So, do any of you think "Rear WIndow" was shot on location? Because I see several of the same give-aways there as I see by the Bantu Wind...

DUDE!!! Rear Window was totally shot on location. How else could they have gotten that helicopter scene where they're checking out the girls on the roof?!? ***





***Gotta go with REAR WINDOW as favorite movie of all time...

[Mike]

***Gotta go with REAR WINDOW as favorite movie of all time...

Agreed. Easily my favorite Hitchcock.

And of course it was on location…located right smack dab in the Universal Lots!

Interesting tidbit…they tore out the stage floor so they could get to "ground level" of the courtyard.


But then again, it rained in Rear Window, so they would've scrapped the studio shooting and gone to location.


(boy, I'm in a goofy mood today.)

[RCSignals]

I wonder if anyone could ask Mr. Grace whether he remembers having two different jackets during Raiders.

Yes, I did... Yes, he did...

I remember saying he must have had two.
Actually if the Butterfield auction jacket was really a movie jacket and Grace's he must have had three.

Seems all the stunt men of the movie had multiple jackets and HF had none. He was always having to borrow theirs

[Ranger36]

[RCSignals]

OK now we need a mod for the mods.

[Michaelson]

No, we need MEDS for the mods....

Regards! Michaelson

[Ranger36]

[RCSignals]

No, we need MEDS for the mods....

Regards! Michaelson

hmm umm well I wouldn't want to be accused of prescribing without a license (is that a coffee cup? )

[maboot38]

No, we need MEDS for the mods....

Regards! Michaelson

hmm umm well I wouldn't want to be accused of prescribing without a license (is that a coffee cup? )

Nope, it is still a grail diary, and people are still confusing it for a beer!
One of these days, somebody is going to change the color of the L.A.R.Y. ticket in it from yellow to blue so that nobody will think it is a beer anymore!

[RCSignals]

Yeah I know it's diary considering the context of MEDs for mods I thought 'coffee cup' would suit the moment better though

maboot are you still on that conference call?

[Ranger36]

[Hatch]

Maboot must have some 'Top Men' on that conference call.......

[maboot38]

Maboot must have some 'Top Men' on that conference call.......

TOP.....men.

It's finally over, thank God!

[Ranger36]

Yay, it's over for you!

[Holt]

That smiley is actually me.....



Hey Mcfly!!

[RCSignals]

So to get back to the odd ball 'Bantu' jacket.

Is it representative of how 'mismatched' the second order was? Quite a different look with the low yoke etc.
I wonder how many of the second order 10 were like it?

Could the reason Ford had to keep borrowing jackets from stunt men be that there were really only four good jackets to use? (the 'original' Hero, and the three 'matching' of the third order?)

[RCSignals]

So to get back to the odd ball 'Bantu' jacket.

Is it representative of how 'mismatched' the second order was? Quite a different look with the low yoke etc.
I wonder how many of the second order 10 were like it?

Could the reason Ford had to keep borrowing jackets from stunt men be that there were really only four good jackets to use? (the 'original' Hero, and the three 'matching' of the third order?)

That was Pamela Mann's point. The ten mismatched (par for Wested) gave her fits. That was why the three hero-replicas were ordered.

I gathered that much. It just makes me wonder how many of the 10 were 'bad'. They must have been quite different or else if they 'matched' each other satisfactorily she'd have at least had 10 matching jackets to work with, and having to order three extra wouldn't have been necessary.

[CM]

As I said earlier, if the Butterfield jacket was a film-used jacket - why does it appear not to be shrunken lamb?

[Bullitt]

I'm watching Raiders right now and two things I noticed about the Bantu Wind scene. First, there seems to be some wind that comes in little gusts, which to me looks too natural to be from a studio shoot. Second, the 'Bantu Wind' seems to lay absolutely still in the open water, which strikes me as odd, if indeed filmed on location. So you see, these arguments contradict each other, but I thought it might be interesting for the sake of discussion.

Please don't hunt me down for throwing more gas on the fire.

...and wind machines are made to do a variety of effects. What you observe is accomplished by having multiple occilating fans operating at slow speed at different locations on the set. People who make movies know how to make things look real. This ain't some backyard production...

While this certainly crossed my mind, it's still a matter of how real the director wants to make it. I mean for complete realism they could've also made a gimbal to put the Bantu Wind on. But you are right in that all these effects can be recreated.

As I said earlier, if the Butterfield jacket was a film-used jacket - why does it appear not to be shrunken lamb?

I think you have a good point here, but how certain are we that indeed all the film jackets were made from shrunken lamb. Leather choice could've been another variable of the mismatched order.
I wonder what the texture of the jacket _ examined was like. I mean there are a number of people here who actually saw and/or handled the film jackets in person. So why is this shrunken lamb discussion so recent? Was the texture of these jackets previously mistaken for a result of the distressing process and the general age of these jackets?

[Yojimbo Jones]

Read the thread called "Tony Nowak is Replicating a Raiders Jacket" and then "The Shrunken Lamb Debate / Discussion"

When you're done in about 3 weeks, you will know!

[Bullitt]

Read the thread called "Tony Nowak is Replicating a Raiders Jacket" and then "The Shrunken Lamb Debate / Discussion"

When you're done in about 3 weeks, you will know!

Oh believe me I read them. I just forgot most of it!

My questions were kinda rhetorical, but for the sake of discussion I threw them out there.

Now nobody is gonna answer them. stupid stupid stupid!

[RCSignals]

As I said earlier, if the Butterfield jacket was a film-used jacket - why does it appear not to be shrunken lamb?

and why does it appear to be so different and in such great shape?

[Dutch_jones]

As I said earlier, if the Butterfield jacket was a film-used jacket - why does it appear not to be shrunken lamb?

and why does it appear to be so different and in such great shape?

I don't think it looks that much different , actually looks quite a lot like the film jackets in the butterfields catalogue image, the shape is hard to say. If it was only used for say: the running jump stunt or scenes like that, theres not really the need to have a fairly beat up jacket now is there? I mean fords jacket is supposed to be the one seen all the time, His would have the full package, the Butterfields jacket looks like it has the key essential distressing that is noticeable from a distance.

[RCSignals]

I disagree. The Butterfield auction jacket looks like a new jacket that was distressed, and the distressing is odd. It has the same odd features as the early Lee Keppler Raiders jacket to my eye.
Maybe it's another Wilson's jacket.

but it's not the topic of this discussion, which is the Bantu Wind jacket.

[crismans]

As I said earlier, if the Butterfield jacket was a film-used jacket - why does it appear not to be shrunken lamb?

We don't know that all of the jackets were shrunken lamb, or how the lamb making a particular jacket reacted to the enzymes, or, for that matter, if the enzymes were put on in the same amount (reaching a little here as I don't claim to be an expert on the process by any means). Tony says that the jacket he had to examine (the Hawaii jacket) had the texture of Chris King's jacket (what some have termed the "croc" leather). But I've also seen shrunken lamb that had the striation effect such as the flying wing jacket. There's a lot of variables here.

[Dutch_jones]

We don't know if ANY of them were ! LOL

The thing is after owning a jacket made of shrunken lamb... I can now safely say that I believe its not the leather used in Raiders at all., Actually that shot _ posted in another thread of his Sheepskin jacket, looks more in line with what I see on the raiders jacket but sheep and lamb are basically the same animal the process involved to create the shrunken look is very distinct.

When you see a Shrunk Lamb jacket in person you will notice it. And when you see a shrunk lamb jacket in pictures you will also, that being the case I don't see it in any of the press stills/screenshots from Raiders sorry!
Which supports all the evidence given by people who where there..

But to get on topic....:

Michaelson posted that Marion and Indy don't walk up to the boat all the way:
In the scene before people are constantly walking up and down the boat behind them it is Katanga, and further in the background is another board walk and there extras keep walking up as well. When they part with Sallah and head for the boardwalk they stop and listen and look at him Singing. If it was shot at a sound stage, it would have to be a really massive one ! Pretty hard to keep such a thing a secret especially given the size of the ship.... The only scene shot on stage regarding bantu wind is the one where Indy gets hit by the mirror AFAIK.


_,
Regarding the jacket you examined in 2000: You said you were wearing ( or had with you ) at the time a wested jacket ? Was it a lamb jacket? And when you examined it, did you see any major differences in the texture of the hide between the two? In terms of grain etc?

[RCSignals]

We don't know if ANY of them were ! LOL

The thing is after owning a jacket made of shrunken lamb... I can now safely say that I believe its not the leather used in Raiders at all., Actually that shot _ posted in another thread of his Sheepskin jacket, looks more like the raiders jacket ! Which supports all the evidence given by people who where there..

Dutch. Actually WE do know

So you now have a jacket in shrunken lamb? A Raiders jacket I hope. Care to share a photo of it?

and _ posted a photo of a piece of a B3 to show what the skin of it looked like. You say you know it matches a raiders jacket. That's pretty funny too
Care to show us all this "evidence given by people who were there"? Maybe start with Terry Leonard.

But to get on topic....:

Michaelson posted that Marion and Indy don't walk up to the boat all the way:
In the scene before people are constantly walking up and down the boat behind them it is Katanga, and further in the background is another board walk and there extras keep walking up as well. When they part with Sallah and head for the boardwalk they stop and listen and look at him Singing. If it was shot at a sound stage, it would have to be a really massive one ! Pretty hard to keep such a thing a secret especially given the size of the ship.... The only scene shot on stage regarding bantu wind is the one where Indy gets hit by the mirror AFAIK.

That's not on topic. It says nothing about the Bantu Wind scene jacket.

[Dutch_jones]

We don't know if ANY of them were ! LOL

The thing is after owning a jacket made of shrunken lamb... I can now safely say that I believe its not the leather used in Raiders at all., Actually that shot _ posted in another thread of his Sheepskin jacket, looks more like the raiders jacket ! Which supports all the evidence given by people who where there..

Dutch. Actually WE do know

So you now have a jacket in shrunken lamb? A Raiders jacket I hope. Care to share a photo of it?

and _ posted a photo of a piece of a B3 to show what the skin of it looked like. You say you know it matches a raiders jacket. That's pretty funny too
Care to show us all this "evidence given by people who were there"? Maybe start with Terry Leonard.

But to get on topic....:

Michaelson posted that Marion and Indy don't walk up to the boat all the way:
In the scene before people are constantly walking up and down the boat behind them it is Katanga, and further in the background is another board walk and there extras keep walking up as well. When they part with Sallah and head for the boardwalk they stop and listen and look at him Singing. If it was shot at a sound stage, it would have to be a really massive one ! Pretty hard to keep such a thing a secret especially given the size of the ship.... The only scene shot on stage regarding bantu wind is the one where Indy gets hit by the mirror AFAIK.

That's not on topic. It says nothing about the Bantu Wind scene jacket.

I didn't say it matched, I said it looked more like it. Well the thread might be about the Bantu wind jacket but most of it for the last three pages have been about the scene itself more than the jacket. I can't post photo's at this time , as my Mac is still in the shop for repairs.

[crismans]

The "was it or wasn't it" shrunken lamb debate has went on for pages and pages of different threads and won't be settled by what we have at this time. Dutch, you don't see it--I do see it in quite a few shots. One of us is wrong, time will tell which one, I suppose.

[Dutch_jones]

The "was it or wasn't it" shrunken lamb debate has went on for pages and pages of different threads and won't be settled by what we have at this time. Dutch, you don't see it--I do see it in quite a few shots. One of us is wrong, time will tell which one, I suppose.

There is no wrong or right in this matter i'm afraid, its kinda how we look at it no? I mean some of us see it, some don't ? EDIT Thats basically what you said too ! SORRY its very early/late here !

[crismans]

The "was it or wasn't it" shrunken lamb debate has went on for pages and pages of different threads and won't be settled by what we have at this time. Dutch, you don't see it--I do see it in quite a few shots. One of us is wrong, time will tell which one, I suppose.

There is no wrong or right in this matter i'm afraid, its kinda how we look at it no? I mean some of us see it, some don't ?

Well, there is a right or wrong on whether the/(some) jackets were made with shrunken lamb but I don't know if there will ever be conclusive enough evidence to completely dispell the debate. So in that aspect, it does go by how we look at it.

[Dutch_jones]

The "was it or wasn't it" shrunken lamb debate has went on for pages and pages of different threads and won't be settled by what we have at this time. Dutch, you don't see it--I do see it in quite a few shots. One of us is wrong, time will tell which one, I suppose.

There is no wrong or right in this matter i'm afraid, its kinda how we look at it no? I mean some of us see it, some don't ?

Well, there is a right or wrong on whether the/(some) jackets were made with shrunken lamb but I don't know if there will ever be conclusive enough evidence to completely dispell the debate. So in that aspect, it does go by how we look at it.

Yes exactly!

_ this might have been covered before. But the prototype jacket that arrived in La Rochelle, was the One we see in the movie right? Were any changes made after receiving that jacket for the rest? ( Might have been covered before ) just trying to make some sense of a few loose ends around here.

[RCSignals]

..

_ this might have been covered before. But the prototype jacket that arrived in La Rochelle, was the One we see in the movie right? Were any changes made after receiving that jacket for the rest? ( Might have been covered before ) just trying to make some sense of a few loose ends around here.

That's sort of related to the Bantu thread but I think the first jacket or 'prototype' deserves it's own discussion thread.

We've already seen the photos Holt posted of what is apparently the 'location' scene, and the jacket (supposed to be the prototype) appears to have a low yoke panel. If that is in fact correct, it isn't the jacket we see most throughout the movie.

[Bullitt]

..

_ this might have been covered before. But the prototype jacket that arrived in La Rochelle, was the One we see in the movie right? Were any changes made after receiving that jacket for the rest? ( Might have been covered before ) just trying to make some sense of a few loose ends around here.

That's sort of related to the Bantu thread but I think the first jacket or 'prototype' deserves it's own discussion thread.

We've already seen the photos Holt posted of what is apparently the 'location' scene, and the jacket (supposed to be the prototype) appears to have a low yoke panel. If that is in fact correct, it isn't the jacket we see most throughout the movie.

I think what Dutch is trying to find out is, whether the 'prototype' WAS in fact the Bantu Wind jacket. And isn't that what this thread is about?

Michaelson posted that Marion and Indy don't walk up to the boat all the way:
In the scene before people are constantly walking up and down the boat behind them it is Katanga, and further in the background is another board walk and there extras keep walking up as well. When they part with Sallah and head for the boardwalk they stop and listen and look at him Singing. If it was shot at a sound stage, it would have to be a really massive one ! Pretty hard to keep such a thing a secret especially given the size of the ship.... The only scene shot on stage regarding bantu wind is the one where Indy gets hit by the mirror AFAIK.

I noticed the same, but that still does not completely rule out a stage shoot. I mean it's easy to make a supporting structure for the deck. But in the end, what does it actually matter if it was a stage or a location? It's still obvious, to me at least, that the jacket used for this scene had a low yoke anyway. And then there is the matter of how 'mismatched' the second order actually was. Could it be there were more jackets with a low yoke?

As for the shrunken lamb, I see different leathers used today than back then. To me, some Raiders jackets were very grainy almost 'bubbly' in certain areas and others not so much. I don't believe in the uniform grain. Personally, I think it's just a result of using the weaker areas of the rawhide as well, joints, spine, etc. KT has done some nice research on this topic. But I digress...

Note that I'm very well aware and respect that others see something different. I'm just stating what I see.

[Hatch]

_ , was the Bantu wind jacket with Ford sitting on the dock photo with the low yoke the prototype or a possible Wilsons .....why are most of other shots and the Hawaii jacket higher yoked ........thanks