Defending yourself against a bullwhip attack.

[Indiana Joe]

Think is, between a gun and a whip--if your opponent is using an 8ft bullwhip, and you are 9 feet away with your gun....Guess who walks away un-injured?

As per defending yourself AGAINST a bullwhip or using one as a weapon--I think we all forgot to mention something about the human mind. A crack of a whip can be intimidating, really throw someone off of their stance.

As per cracking it offensivly or defensivly for an extended period of time, probobly not effective. Swinging the whip allowes constant movement, say, around ones head. It takes time to recover from a crack, and make another crack on target, However, if you are using it like a club and swinging it, you can pretty much instantly swing it down and make solid contact. Kind of like using an axe in battle, the key is to keep the object moving at all times.

All I am arguing is that a whip can be used as a weapon in certain situations. Plain and simple. Neither am I saying that using the handle and knob of the whip as a weapon is not a viable option. I have told several people that the Pocket Bulls I make can be used for cracking or as black jacks. This technique is not in dispute and never was.

What I find interesting is the stance to completely dismiss the use of cracking a whip as, primarily, a defensive weapon.... I think that a sparring match between, say, one fella with a baseball bat and the other with a six foot bullwhip would be very interesting.

Since I'll be relocating to Ohio next month, I was searching for a Filipino martial arts school up there and came across the following website www.sayoc.com
If you click on http://sayoc.com/article_info.php?articles_id=15 there's an article regarding the use of the whip as a flexible weapon in combat.
http://sayoc.com/article_info.php?articles_id=22 has a course outline listing 20 different strikes using a 6 or 8 foot nylon whip with a wooden handle. It reminded me of when Indydawg and I were practicing at his house around this time last year a few of his Ranger buddies came over and watched us cracking. Although we had 8 foot whips, they gave their opinion that a shorter whip used in conjuction with a knife would be a great combination of weapons.
I.J.

[Bufflehead Jones]

I guess since this thread has been resurrected, I can put in my two cents. Any of the members of COW that have met me in person know that I have had to disarm people in real life situations that have been armed with just about any type of weapon that I can think of, including guns. I have been doing this for nearly three decades, and I am still here, so I must be doing something right. Funny though, I have never come across anyone armed with a whip. But, I guess there can be a first time for everything. I am afraid that I am going to have to agree with Jerry about a whip as a weapon. If I was in a life or death situation with someone armed with a whip (if you can even call it that) and I had any type of weapon not including a gun, I would take one hit with the whip to get inside the range of the whip to be able to elimnate the threat. A whip would definitely not be my first choice as a defensive weapon.

Everyone has been saying things about a gun will win and implying the old adage of not bringing a knife to a gun fight. It is true that in a life or death situation, I would like to be the one with the superior weapon and the superior training, even though this does not guarantee your survival.

Let me throw out something for you to think about. This is something that has been proven time and time again in training situations. I have a knife in my hand and I am 21 feet or less away from you and you have a loaded gun in a holster. Do you feel safe in the fact that you could sucessfully defend yourself, should I decide to charge at you with the intent to stab you in your chest? Would you feel that your life was truely in danger? In case you have to think about it, 21 feet is the same as 7 yards, not quite enough to make a first down in football. Most people would say, yes. They would feel very comfortable in the fact that if I charged at them, they could draw their gun and defend themselves. This is assuming that you have never been trained in these type of tactics.

If you have never been trained in these types of armed confrontations and you feel you are safe because you are the one armed with a gun, you just made a very deadly mistake. If I have the knife in my hand and I decide to charge at you, I will stab you in the chest with the knife before you ever get the gun out of your hoster. Without proper training, I can tell you exactly how you are going to react. Due to the lag time of your reactions, by the time you realize that you are about to be stabbed, you will start to attempt to draw your gun. As you realize the attacker is going to be upon you before you are able to draw your gun, you will instinctively begin to try to put more distance between yourself and the knife. Since the knife is coming straight towards you, you will begin to go straight backwards and since you are now panicking and looking at the knife that is about to stab you, you may trip and fall. Without knowing the proper tactic for this situation, you will not be able to draw and fire before being stabbed and you will not be able to out accelerate your attacker to buy yourself more time. If this is all you can manage to do to protect yourself, you are going to be stabbed. Hey, if you keep trying after you get stabbed, maybe you will get a round off, and if you are real lucky, you may even hit your assailant.

You can talk about hypothetical situations all you want to, but until you have been confronted by that situation, either in real life or in a training situation, it may not turn out the way you thought it would. In the above situation, if I was the one with the gun, do I know what I would do? You betcha.

The best advise given in this thread was that posted by the ones that said you should avoid confrontations if at all possible. A whip as a defensive weapon may look cool in a movie but it is not a very good choice in real life. If your life depends on it, you should use whatever you have available. I just don't think I will ever walk around with my whip waiting for someone to attack me.

[Indiana Blizzard]

Well IMHO the best defence against a bullwhip would be a bucket of water...after all who in there right mind would want to get there whip wet!!!

[Rixter]

Interesting thread, so let me add my slightly tongue n’ check comments to the mix.

I guess that old 50’s or 60’s advise of ‘duck and cover’ doesn’t apply in any of these situations.

The primary means I use to defend myself is to RUN whenever possible. ...and I’m really fast. However, PERSUADED to join Golden Gloves in my youth my only means of self defense would be to rely on the skills I learned from those years of training, tournaments, and other amateur events. The one thing I came away with from those experiences that REALLY works, is that the main thing in a fight that you CAN’T avoid, is to remain completely focused and anticipate the moves of your opponent and counter them, hopefully with better reflexes than he has; the ability to absorb and take pain, and an abundance of determination and stamina, that is of course unless you are confronted by a skilled opponent in any of the martial arts, whip’s, dog’s, bears, or croc’s, etc... In that event, you may just want to play ‘dead’ and hope your adversary get’s ‘real’ tired of beating or chewing on you.

Fortunately I’ve been able to avoid serious confrontations by ‘looking’ mean - I guess. And I’m glad I have. Not only do I have an abhorrence toward getting seriously hurt, but unfortunately, I also have a fear of seriously hurting anyone else and the legalities that are usually entailed in having done so. Fear of lawyer’s being one of the primary motives for avoiding altercations nowadays. How does that joke go..., you’re money or you’re life - I’m thinking about it.

In any event, knowing some basic self defense skills only increases the percentage of surviving SOME confrontations and as aliments, age, and inevitable injuries eventually take there toll, you inevitably reach the point of diminishing returns. Plus, if you don’t totally immerse yourself in the philosophy and/or theory of whatever martial art you choose, you are pretty much just going through the motions anyway, it takes more than a casual interest in the art or a few years of classes, it requires a lifetime of study.

Just my skewed 2 cents worth.

[Indiana Jackson]

I think Indy did it best with the swordsman in Cairo in ROTLA!

[Indiana Joe]

I just mentioned Tom Meadows' book in another post and it brought to remembrance this thread on using the whip combatively. I recalled the Rangers at Indydawg's house and looking up sayok kali. What brought this all together for me was that after decades of training in various martial arts from different countries, he created the Latigo y Daga style influenced by filipino Doce Pares. Basically, like the Rangers had stated that night--a whip for long range/distance and a knife to make the opponent think twice about closing said distance.
The main targets for combative whip work are eyes, face, throat, groin, and hands. Remember that the whip has the ability to rupture the windpipe which would result in death.

The Dog Brothers (one of their maxims is "when the rules do not specifically prohibit it, grappling happens") actually gave fighting a whip handler a try, without padding...once. Actually, Eric Knaus was allowed to wear a light fencing mask and that was it. I believe you can watch it on tape six of the Dog Brothers video series.
Anyway, Eric Knaus fought against a 4 1/2 ft short whip weilding by master Tom Meadows. Eric said his strategy was to think of the whip as a long-range "flying knife" and that he needed to think of timing it like a jump rope. Although he was able to close the distance several times (Tom did not have a secondary weapon in his other hand) Eric stated that "...there is a strong likelihood of getting cut by the whip." As a result of those sessions, Meadows added the dagger/knife as a secondary weapon.

Oh well, just thought it might interest some other gearheads like it did/does me.

[Indiana G]

whip in one hand, knife in the other.....got it

http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ns/t36.jpg

[Rabittooth]

Holy! This thread is still around? It's 5 years old!



-Rabittooth

[Indiana Max]

Never fail your enemy with your whip, or that would be the aftereffect

[Indiana Joe]

Max, that's a hilarious picture---I actually laughed out loud and really needed that this morning! That and my coffee (of course).

[Mountaineer Lasher]

I think with Anthony DeLongis doing the whip-work for Indy IV, this thread merits some more discussion. DeLongis will frequently do demonstrations at shows where he defends against multiple assailants by using a shorter (maybe 6') bullwhip. He does grappling and trapping with it. James Keating even has an instructional DVD out on the Combative Whip.

[The_Edge]

HA HA HA! My favorite thread is back! YEAH!!

I think with Anthony DeLongis doing the whip-work for Indy IV, this thread merits some more discussion. DeLongis will frequently do demonstrations at shows where he defends against multiple assailants by using a shorter (maybe 6') bullwhip. He does grappling and trapping with it. James Keating even has an instructional DVD out on the Combative Whip.

Thank God! Someone else who knows of Keating's whip work.

[Minnesota Jones]

Kyle! Long time no talk my friend! Hope all's well!

[The_Edge]

Kyle! Long time no talk my friend! Hope all's well!

Mike my friend, a lot has changed since that evening you and your wife visited so long ago. Not the least of which is the addition of two more kids and a job working for MK. In short...all is indeed well. And you?

[indy13]

Interesting thread!

I wanted to add a couple of points. First of all, Bufflehead Jones' point is right on. The standard for when police officers are allowed to use their guns against an attacker is 10 yards. In every internal investigation I've ever heard of an officer shooting a charging suspect within ten yards that officer has been exonerated. The reason for this is a study that found that under ten yards a person with training would hit their target very infrequently. I can't remember the specific number (it's been a while since my work required this knowledge) but I think it was 1 out of 10. So that distance has become the bright line for a justified shooting. In BJ's example the smart money would always be on the guy with the knife rather than the guy with the gun.

The other point I wanted to make was that people usually have trouble with the unknown. I've been involved in martial arts for many years and I've found that the most effective fighters generally had an unorthodox technique that they wielded very effectively. It would usually be a punch or kick that came in at a slightly different angle or in a broken rhythm. It wasn't necessarily better than other strikes but it was an attack that their opponent had no practice defending against. That made it effective.

IMO that's what would make a whip effective. I've personally never fought or even practiced against a whip wielding attacker and I don't know of anyone who has. And while I would naturally try to stay outside/inside of the whip's natural striking point the threat of the whip would be very dissuasive. The sound alone is intimidating but if I suddenly had a gash opened on my face or even in my clothing I would have to be very determined to want to continue that attack.

[VP]

How to defend yourself against somebody who attacks you with a bullwhip?

Why that's easy, you just drop a 16-ton weight on the attacker.

[masa]

Or even better, a grand piano.

[Indiana Joe]

HA HA HA! My favorite thread is back! YEAH!!

I think with Anthony DeLongis doing the whip-work for Indy IV, this thread merits some more discussion. DeLongis will frequently do demonstrations at shows where he defends against multiple assailants by using a shorter (maybe 6') bullwhip. He does grappling and trapping with it. James Keating even has an instructional DVD out on the Combative Whip.

Thank God! Someone else who knows of Keating's whip work.

Yeah, you don't find too many folks who are familiar with Keating's whip work---they usually are aware of his knife work, which is excellent too.

[Indiana Joe]

The other point I wanted to make was that people usually have trouble with the unknown. I've been involved in martial arts for many years and I've found that the most effective fighters generally had an unorthodox technique that they wielded very effectively. It would usually be a punch or kick that came in at a slightly different angle or in a broken rhythm. It wasn't necessarily better than other strikes but it was an attack that their opponent had no practice defending against. That made it effective.

IMO that's what would make a whip effective. I've personally never fought or even practiced against a whip wielding attacker and I don't know of anyone who has. And while I would naturally try to stay outside/inside of the whip's natural striking point the threat of the whip would be very dissuasive. The sound alone is intimidating but if I suddenly had a gash opened on my face or even in my clothing I would have to be very determined to want to continue that attack.

That's a really good point, Indy13.
To tie in police work with the whip, has anyone ever used a sjambok? It's a weapon that's issued to South African police officers. It's essentially a short 'whip' but it's semi-rigid. I believe ColdSteel sells that same item not only to that nation's police force but to online customers as well. I'm surprised at how inexpensive it is. Anyway there's a book out called the Scourge of the Dark Continent that covers the basic slashes, strikes, angles of attack, how to use the handle, etc. Anyway, it's usually interesting to folks who like whips or unusual weasons.

[Mountaineer Lasher]

Yeah, you don't find too many folks who are familiar with Keating's whip work---they usually are aware of his knife work, which is excellent too.

When one wishes to learn the ability to use the whip as a weapon, one tends to explore all options, even if that means digging deeper than one would usually have to due to the exotic nature of the aforementioned weapon.

I've had to do the same kind of digging for my tomahawk instruction.

[thefish]

I've held my opinions on this for about 3 years now. Because it is a one of those bizarre and somewhat silly things to argue about. Like who would win in a battle between the Enterprise and an Imperial Star Destroyer.

Everyone is saying so far "If I have a gun, and you have a whip, you're dead."

But that ain't necessarily so. Just as it ain't necessarily so if "I have a gun/you have a knife"; "if I have a sword/you have a knife," If I have a bazooka/you have a barstool."

Just because someone has a gun doesn't mean the fights over. An amateur who owns a gun who's done a little target shooting, but has never faced an armed opponent with one's chances aren't as good as folks here are assuming if he's facing an experienced, trained combatant armed with a whip, a knife, a pool cue, or even his bare hands.

There's been a lot of banter back and forth over the years about whips as practical weapons. I got into a similar argu...errr...discussion with my whip coach, Gery Deer about this just the other day. His claim, (shared by many,) is that a whip is not in any way shape or form, a practical weapon....ever...

And despite the claims of the Latigo y Daga Association, the demo videos of Anthony DeLongis vs. the Dog Brothers, and the book by Tom Meadows, (which I've read,) I agree. Whips are NOT practical.

But then, what exactly IS a practical weapon these days? Gun trumps most things, including samurai swords, sai, boken, bo staff, nunchucka, escrima, balisong, rope dart, etc. etc. etc. etc. Guess what? Thermonuclear warhead trumps gun.

That doesn't make those other weapons useless.

A chair leg can be more deadly than the Glock in the right hands. And a whip is the same way. Of course the man who makes that chair leg deadly will also have the sense to know that it's probably a bad idea to face a man with a gun with a chair leg, but if his mind and body have been primed for such a thing, and he can see an opening in his opponent's defence, then he will use that chair leg, or whip, or escrima, or sai, or bare hand to the best advantage that he has.

It's not the weapon, folks. It's he who wields it.

Just my opinion. Carry on.

(Oh, and Imperial Star Destroyer...Hands down...The power to boldy go where no one has gone before is insignificant next to the awesome power of the Force!)

[Bufflehead Jones]

I'll agree with that. Standing right next to the man with the gun, the chair leg MIGHT work. 50-75 feet away, the chair leg doesn't stand a chance.

"Put your HANDS UP and move AWAY from the CHAIR!"

[jabahutt70]

A chair leg can be more deadly than the Glock in the right hands. And a whip is the same way. Of course the man who makes that chair leg deadly will also have the sense to know that it's probably a bad idea to face a man with a gun with a chair leg, but if his mind and body have been primed for such a thing, and he can see an opening in his opponent's defence, then he will use that chair leg, or whip, or escrima, or sai, or bare hand to the best advantage that he has.

It's not the weapon, folks. It's he who wields it.

Very good points, Dan! Even if a certain weapon holds a particular advantage over another, it depends largely on the hands carrying those weapons. In any fight or battle, when an opponent believes he/she has the upper hand, that can be a detriment, and allow the weaker person (or weapon) to strike in an unexpected instant.

Another point, as most of you have already heard the expression, "on any given Sunday any team can win," or something to that effect. Well, in any given conflict, it's anyone's game and anyone can win. Don't be too hasty to place your bets.

Steve.

[hollywood1340]

If you close on my whip you have to deal with ME and that is something many forget. The ranges of combat. Most people, when talking about whips in combat only think of the long range. Close it to striking range, and the whip has lost ONE of it's functions. Depending on who's wielding it, it's now worse, or better depending. So I would say it's not a matter of the weapon, but the person wielding it. A whip is just another tool, like a knife, a gun or a hammer. And there are people out there who will hand you your a** with any of these implements. Time, training, preparation and mindset will get you farther then any tool you happen to possess at the time. Think from the tip of the whip to the center of mass of the person holding it and that is where the strength of a flexible weapon lies. I don't much agree with blanket statements because I know better then that. Take it all beyond face value and the world is a much more interesting place.

[Indiana Joe]

.....that is something many forget. The ranges of combat. Most people, when talking about whips in combat only think of the long range. Close it to striking range, and the whip has lost ONE of it's functions. Depending on who's wielding it, it's now worse, or better depending. So I would say it's not a matter of the weapon, but the person wielding it.

Good point. After closing the long range, the whip wielder who's trained to use a rope/handkerchief can still use the whip in that function. And have you just held the handle and hit yourself? It hurts! So I agree that the whip can be used in the different combat ranges.
On a related side note, it would have been interesting if Jason Bourne (in the movies) would have found a whip laying around (they could've been a member of the Whip Enthusiasts!) and used it---we saw some of the rope/handkerchief techniques used in the bathroom scene.

[Indiana Joe]

Since we've had a lot of new members join in the last year and a half, I thought this would be an interesting thread to "bump." Any additional thoughts or comments?

Joe

p.s.--can you tell I like this topic?

[myrddin]

Thanks for bumping this.

[KeepaySF]

Hi,

So I've been training in kung-fu and tai-chi for 14 years, and instructing both for about 11 years. I feel odd about opening a forum posting with that but it's why I feel confident to make a few suggestions.

First and foremost, if you can, move away from the situation, but cover your retreat carefully. That's just always the first-principle. If reasonably safe retreat isn't possible (this could be for many reasons - terrain/obstacles of course but also others that might be put at risk or the potential for pursuit, etc.) then you MAY have two options. If you discern the possibility that the assailant is in an altered state ( via intoxication obviously, but also grief, desperation, or even rage) this can be exploited to verbally diffuse the conflict...people in the grip of strong emotion, alcohol or drugs can be readily manipulated by SINCERE reactions to their threats that convey sympathy, or friendship, or the like - it has worked for me and beats hurting someone, or putting yourself at risk, hands down.)

If you are unable (the person is obviously intent on hurting you) or unwilling to risk trying to diffuse the encounter AND trapped, do not hesitate for an instant and move in, as fast as possible on the persons' center.

Most importantly, once you decide that you must attack, IGNORE the whip.

Unless it's wielded by Anthony De Longis, or maybe Adam Winrich, a whip is not going do enough damage to warrant taking your focus from the attackers' center. If you're at risk from a whip, you're likely within a very specific distance, say between 6 and 12 feet (obviously depending on the length of whip, duh), from the attacker. Only a percentage of that distance, perhaps a range of 6 feet max, is dangerous insofar as actually being struck, and you'll only be in that range for a moment. Your odds of being hit are therefore vanishingly small. Even if they get lucky, they won't have time for another shot. Once you're right in front of them, (again, unless it's a HIGHLY trained person, who would be, in that case, HIGHLY unlikely to be attacking anybody) the whip isn't a threat to you - it's what your assailants' hands are busy with instead of using them to effectively defend themselves.

[Indiana County Jr.]

Great stuff KeepaySF ,

If you guys don't care, I will put in my .02 cents calling on my martial arts experience as well. As said "closing the distance" is everything, causing the person to try to regroup the attack usually opens a more than adequate area for multiple or singular attacks. The only other point I would be concerned about is if the user has a chance to reuse the whip as say a "recoiling chain whip" or a "blackjack" attack. Seriously, the handle on my DelCarpio KOTCS whip is more than heavy enough to knock some absolutely "silly". Timing is everything as many have mentioned.

As Ed Parker once said:

"He who hesitates, meditates horizontally...."

Crack On!
Allen

[hollywood1340]

+1 for the EPAK quote!
Here in Virginia City, MT you'll find me with a whip on my hip if I'm not working. That's along with the crescent wrench and the vice grips that go with me as well. It's not a "highly skilled" person with a whip you need to worry about. If you can swing a stick, the butt end of a whip becomes a weapon. Thinking only of those who "know what they are doing" in a martial encounter is dangerously close to pretending to know the future.

[Indiana County Jr.]

Hi Hollywood,
Good point , isn't it always like that, the ones who practice forever overlook the individual who has no concept of fighting and pulls off an accidental "where-did-that-come-from" shot that leaves the pro scratching his/her head....

Speaking of cresent wrenches, check out Jeff Speakman in "Street Knight" he uses a pair of wrenches as escrima sticks.... poor bad guy....


Crack On!
Allen

[bluzharp]

......But that ain't necessarily so. Just as it ain't necessarily so if "I have a gun/you have a knife"; "if I have a sword/you have a knife," If I have a bazooka/you have a barstool."

But what if I had a Dewalt cordless drill, and you had a frozen halibut? LOL! I love it.

[thefish]

But what if I had a Dewalt cordless drill, and you had a frozen halibut? LOL! I love it.

Well, it's obvious, isn't it?

I use the halibut to dash your brains out, thaw it out, bake it with some lemon zest and paprika, and serve it to the investigating police for dinner...

Duh!

Haven't you ever watched the "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" Series?



(Or "Murder! She Wrote"? There was an episode that ripped Hitchcock off entirely with that. And that ep was incidently written by J. Michael Strakzynski, the creator of "Babylon 5". Oh well, we can't always be brilliant...)

[Indiana County Jr.]

He did it "For the Halibut......"

[myrddin]

But what if I had a Dewalt cordless drill, and you had a frozen halibut? LOL! I love it.

Don't be ridiculous... Do you know hard it is to get a decent crack out of a halibut, let alone a frozen one?

The little buggers are so slippery, I had to buy grip gloves so it doesn't go flying off when I practice my combo throws.


(Now, I'm picturing the Monty Python fish slapping sketch but with intended whip action... )

[bluzharp]

But what if I had a Dewalt cordless drill, and you had a frozen halibut? LOL! I love it.

Well, it's obvious, isn't it?

I use the halibut to dash your brains out, thaw it out, bake it with some lemon zest and paprika, and serve it to the investigating police for dinner...

Duh!

Haven't you ever watched the "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" Series?



(Or "Murder! She Wrote"? There was an episode that ripped Hitchcock off entirely with that. And that ep was incidently written by J. Michael Strakzynski, the creator of "Babylon 5". Oh well, we can't always be brilliant...)

Exactly! You got it, fish! I love Hitchcock. Wasn't it a leg of lamb, or something? By the way, I love baked halibut.

[thefish]

It was indeed a leg of lamb...

Now, a leg of lamb is far more massive and has a MUCH better grip ergonomics, so killing you with a frozen halibut would be far more difficult than with a leg of lamb...So I guess I'll refrain from any attempt.

[hollywood1340]

"Thundering Wrenches" Classic scene!

[bluzharp]

It was indeed a leg of lamb...

Now, a leg of lamb is far more massive and has a MUCH better grip ergonomics, so killing you with a frozen halibut would be far more difficult than with a leg of lamb...So I guess I'll refrain from any attempt.

Well, ok then. I think we should just call it a draw, and shake hands. Plus, my batteries need recharging anyway. lol. Sorry folks, I'll stop now.

[thefish]

Anyway, thefish is just my Internet alias. I wouldn't necessarily want it to be my super villian/serial killer name or modus operandi, would I?

How embarrassing would THAT be???

[Indiana Joe]

Hi,

So I've been training in kung-fu and tai-chi for 14 years, and instructing both for about 11 years. I feel odd about opening a forum posting with that but it's why I feel confident to make a few suggestions.

First and foremost, if you can, move away from the situation, but cover your retreat carefully. That's just always the first-principle. If reasonably safe retreat isn't possible (this could be for many reasons - terrain/obstacles of course but also others that might be put at risk or the potential for pursuit, etc.) then you MAY have two options. If you discern the possibility that the assailant is in an altered state ( via intoxication obviously, but also grief, desperation, or even rage) this can be exploited to verbally diffuse the conflict...people in the grip of strong emotion, alcohol or drugs can be readily manipulated by SINCERE reactions to their threats that convey sympathy, or friendship, or the like - it has worked for me and beats hurting someone, or putting yourself at risk, hands down.)

If you are unable (the person is obviously intent on hurting you) or unwilling to risk trying to diffuse the encounter AND trapped, do not hesitate for an instant and move in, as fast as possible on the persons' center.

Most importantly, once you decide that you must attack, IGNORE the whip.

Unless it's wielded by Anthony De Longis, or maybe Adam Winrich, a whip is not going do enough damage to warrant taking your focus from the attackers' center. If you're at risk from a whip, you're likely within a very specific distance, say between 6 and 12 feet (obviously depending on the length of whip, duh), from the attacker. Only a percentage of that distance, perhaps a range of 6 feet max, is dangerous insofar as actually being struck, and you'll only be in that range for a moment. Your odds of being hit are therefore vanishingly small. Even if they get lucky, they won't have time for another shot. Once you're right in front of them, (again, unless it's a HIGHLY trained person, who would be, in that case, HIGHLY unlikely to be attacking anybody) the whip isn't a threat to you - it's what your assailants' hands are busy with instead of using them to effectively defend themselves.

Good stuff, KeepaySF.

[jts1031]

Whips may be paired off with fast draw gun artists, either in contests of breaking ballons, etc., or in shows of the whip taking the gun. The limited information available on comparative rates would indicate that starting with gun in holster, whip lying out in front, a 14 foot stock whip is faster than a gun for equivalently skilled performers."

No offense to Mr. Morgan, but I call shenanigans. In fact, I believe someone such as Jerry Miculek could not only draw, but empty a revolver before the whip could be cracked. As for comments about DeLongis, I've been a fan of his work since he did some choreography with Braun McAsh on Highlander The Series. But make no mistake that his demonstrations are highly choreographed as well, and to make himself look good at that.

The best use for a whip as a weapon is to rush the target, wrap it around his neck and choke him out. That far exceeds its usefulness as a whip or a club.

[thefish]

Morgan isn't BSing. The tip of a whip is travelling FAR faster than the muzzle velocity of a bullet from most handguns. And more recent studies, (published shortly before the second edition of Morgan's "Whips and Whipmaking,") by Goriely and McMillan, (in 2002 and 2003) discuss whip speed measurements as reaching over Mach 2, and exerting force equal to 50,000G's. Any object accelerated to that speed is going to strike with some pretty considerable force!

Now, can a man deploy that whip crack accuratly faster than a man can draw a pistol and squeeze the trigger? That's not about mechanics, that's about skill on the part of the two individuals. I've SEEN demonstrations where a man with a whip coiled at his side cut a playing card faster than a quick-draw trick shooter could draw and put a hole in a playing card.

If you're using flick cracks, rather than cattleman's cracks, which require a much longer setup, you can get that whip out there pretty darn fast and with some deadly accuracy.

And yes, a lot of the demos that DeLongis does are for SHOW...One thing Anthony is VERY good at is self-promotion. But have you seen the Dog Brothers footage where they put a guy in a motorcycle helmet, a leather jacket, gloves, and chaps, and Anthony took an 8 foot whip, and told the guy to close range as fast as he could.

The guy going after Athony was calling shenanigans too. He was a skilled martial artist, and was intent upon moving in to grapple. He was having SEVERE problems closing in on DeLongis, and he was a Dog Brother's combatant. These folks are of the "Higher Consciousness through Pain" mindset, (what I like to call Crazy <INSERT EXPLETIVE PRONOUN HERE>) And he said so. Even though he KNEW he wasn't going to get hurt in all that padding, he was still having problems. It's intimidating. That's one of it's strengths. Getting your brain in an actual COMBAT situation to overcome that isn't easy.

Beyond that...being hit by a modern bullwhip causes crippling pain. You're not just going to walk through that, unless you're hopped up on meth or speed, in which case nothing short of emptying a 44 magnum full of Glaser safety rounds is going to easily stop you. You can chuckle and guffaw all you want. Maybe you've smacked yourself with a bullwhip while you're practicing...Maybe you've seen video of morons on Youtube beating each other with whips...Well, they're just that...Morons...They don't know what they're doing, and they're using @#$%. If you hit yourself, it was a mistake, and VERY doubtful that the whip was travelling AT SPEED when it contacted you. Someone armed with a whip, with the intent to strike you with it to do you harm is something COMPLETELY different.

I've seen a bullwhip take a quarter sized piece of hide off a guys arm, and the blood spray looked like he'd been hit by a bullet. He's a vet who's been a blacksmith for over 20 years, and I've seen him lay open fingers to the bone with knives, break bones, and get stepped on by cantankerous horses, and just wade back into it.

The whip hit him..

The Blood splashed...

He screamed.

Loud...

And this was a crack gone wrong and was self inflicted. If someone who was very skilled with a whip wished to do that, and could place that crack exactly where he wanted did that, the results would have been far worse.

Now, I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. I know I avoid taking whips to gun fights as often as I can.

Given a choice, (and I have been,) I carry a Glock, (every day,) and GOD FORBID if I was in a deadly situation, I'd go for the Indy solution and shoot the guy before I drew the whip.

But when we say that the whip is an IMPRACTICAL weapon, I think we're all throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, and IMPLYING that it's an INEFFECTIVE weapon, which it's not.

Trying to USE a whip in an actual combat situation? Yeah...Pretty dumb...But then again...bein IN an actual combat situation...Probably pretty dumb itself...

We can spend all day talking theoretical situations...This vs. That...Extinuating circumstances...This guy vs, That guy...Imperial Star Destroyer vs. The Starship Enterprise...But where the rubber meets the road, the Whip can be far more effective than what a lot of your guys are giving it credit for.

Just my two cents, YMMV.

[kooniu]

.....
Just my two cents, YMMV.

I agree with every yours cents

[myrddin]

We can spend all day talking theoretical situations...This vs. That...Extinuating circumstances...This guy vs, That guy...Imperial Star Destroyer vs. The Starship Enterprise...But where the rubber meets the road, the Whip can be far more effective than what a lot of your guys are giving it credit for.

Just my two cents, YMMV.

Good post, Fish. I agree with everything you've said. (Nice testimonial about the blacksmith, too.)

Except for the question about Star Destroyer vs. Enterprise. Is this even a question? Star Destroyer hands down...

[thefish]

Hey man! I'm right there with you, but some people still ask that question...

and as I said earlier in this thread....The ability to "boldly go where no one has gone before" is insignificant compared to the power of the force!

-D

[dalton74]

Hello, all!

New member here. (first post) I don't know how I ended up on this thread, but it has made for some interesting reading. Has anyone seen the fighting whip on Victor Tella's website? It has a spring loaded steel spike that comes out of the bottom of the handle with the push of a button. I got a good laugh out of that when I saw it.

Before anyone ridicules me for laughing when I saw it, I wasn't laughing at the idea of a fighting whip, I was laughing at the barrage of images that flooded my mind of me fighting someone with that whip and, when they moved in on me, stabbing them with the spike.

I'm awesome in my daydreams!

[bluzharp]

Whips may be paired off with fast draw gun artists, either in contests of breaking ballons, etc., or in shows of the whip taking the gun. The limited information available on comparative rates would indicate that starting with gun in holster, whip lying out in front, a 14 foot stock whip is faster than a gun for equivalently skilled performers."

No offense to Mr. Morgan, but I call shenanigans. In fact, I believe someone such as Jerry Miculek could not only draw, but empty a revolver before the whip could be cracked. As for comments about DeLongis, I've been a fan of his work since he did some choreography with Braun McAsh on Highlander The Series. But make no mistake that his demonstrations are highly choreographed as well, and to make himself look good at that.

The best use for a whip as a weapon is to rush the target, wrap it around his neck and choke him out. That far exceeds its usefulness as a whip or a club.

I agree also. But that's what scoped rifles are for. So all you folks who are threatening me with your whip from across the street, beware!

[hollywood1340]

Comparing specialists will get you no where. It comes down to never underestimate your opponent and you'll come out OK. No matter what they are or what they do. I'm out.