Show me the rhino hide?....

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:39 pm

Hello, sports fans. Unknowingly, I posted a comment in a Todd's thread that sparked a debate, but for the sake of it, let's talk about the specifics. Here are a few scanned images taken mostly from lobby cards, press kits or magazines:

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp13 ... img012.jpg
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp13 ... img013.jpg
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp13 ... img011.jpg
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp13 ... img015.jpg
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp13 ... img016.jpg

What other evidence out there either supports or denies the claims as mentioned in the past? About the only photo that supports a rough leather is the last photo.

- The following is taken from the main site:
"Test fittings were done at Western Costumes with Tom Selleck and it became clear that there were functional problems with the Wilson’s jackets. Namely, the jacket would hang-up on the gun belt and the whip. Additionally, the leather used for the Wilson’s jackets did not lend itself well to artificial aging as the finish would flake off. Western Costumes stepped in and provided a mock-up jacket in cloth, the design of which included an open action pleat that resolved the pattern issues. It should be noted here that while it has been reported that Western Costumes provided finished leather jackets, this is not quite accurate. The only finished leather jackets presented by Western Costumes were limited to historically accurate A2s, and this design did not meet the requirements for the character."

" This jacket was much lighter than the Wilson’s jackets – a "plus" in Deborah’s mind given the locations they were to shoot. The Wilson’s jackets had been made from cowhide, while the Leather Concessionaires jacket was lambskin. The pattern was correct, therefore the final test was in how well the jacket aged. Deborah did this personally using Harrison’s Swiss Army knife and a wire brush while sitting by the pool at her hotel on the night before shooting was to begin at the Nazi U-Boat pier in La Rochelle. The aging test was a success and this jacket became the hero jacket."

- A quote from the "Important Questions" thread:
"The original jackets made by me were in the NZ Lamb/sheep skins as supplied to me by Turn Leather they were not rough or shrunken hide. I had no part in the breaking down and distressing as been clearly documented. This was done on set. I supply the jacket in smooth leather so that the person wearing it can either distress it himself or keep it as it is."

Corroborating evidence is evidence that tends to support a proposition that is already supported by some evidence. Unaltered photos, or lobby cards in this case, taken outside in full sun and no shadowing do not mislead. With the examples above, you have three sources of info. to substantiate or deny bias, from movie stills, the official account from the website and from the jacket maker's comments. If light causes a surface to be shiny and reflects off the surface, then the surface is smooth. Otherwise, the light would be absorbed by the rough hewn material.

Now, stay in your corners, and when the bell sounds, come out swinging.

Kevin Anderson · Post by **Kevin Anderson** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:23 pm

Why do you have 'Temple of Doom' pics in there? Shouldn't you at least stick to 'Raiders' pics, since that's the jacket in question?

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:36 pm

We've all played this game to death.

Either you believe it or you don't. I tend to look at the track records of those making the statements as well as screen grabs.

If you want screen grabs that show lots of grain, do a search on the 1001 other threads where this has been hashed out.

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:14 pm

I think that crismans is right. We all have our opinions and theories, no amount of screen grabs will change that. In the end, no matter how you look at it, all just opinions.

The arguments will go back and forth until maybe one day we find out for sure...but until then, those who believe that the leather was smooth will not have their minds changed and those who believe that it was shrunken lamb, well I doubt that they will be convinced that it isn't.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:32 pm

Is this a double stitched shoulder seam or an illusion?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:06 am

Texan Scott wrote:To me it looks smooth, but heavily distressed.

What are the brim dimensions in the second photo?

...doesn't matter! Unless you are doubling for the man tomorrow.

I wish someone would take their new smooth lamb jacket and 'heavily' distress it.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:16 am

The stills show whatever you think they show and can be used to support that the leather was knobbled or smooth. Even if the film jacket was smooth, I think knobbled looks better. I personally don't feel I have enough proof of either hide being used as the stills don't really demonstrate anything concrete to me. TN's borrowed jacket was certainly shrunken lamb - but were they all?

Old debate, this one.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:32 am

But they're really pushing it resolution wise to see it. This sort of shot is better:

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:56 am

From Jan 2007:

viewtopic.php?p=285132#p285132

- Mac

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:30 am

Thanks for your pics TS.

For ToD and LC there are very hi res pics out there. They used a smooth leather on both of those. The evidence available refutes any other claims. Raiders most available are too low res so the leather is still open to debate.

The yoke panel on some of the jackets seem to be grainy, and the chest panel is some times striated. None of the pics show both effects on the same panel. However this may be due to the poor images available.

If you have a photographic version of the 'idol grab' lobby card can you do a hi res scan and post it as a link please?

Anyone who attends a convention/photo mart and can get true photographic 10 x 8's with no printing screen dots on them can you scan at hi res and post links please?? The stars pic, Idol grab in particular?

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:40 am

Hope you don't mind me nicking your pic, NB!

Seems pretty clear to me!

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:41 am

The thing is, the striations are not an effect of shrinking but how it was pulled of a carcass, this has been said over and over, and they are GROWTH marks, if you grow very fast, you will get sort like marks on your skin due to the skin not being able to handle the rapid growth.

KT here's a Hi-res pic of the Idol grab.
http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 01hlx1.jpg

BTW the shrunken grain stretch marks is a whole different thing, to date I have seen ZERO TN jackets that look like the raiders jacket with the marks, I see shrunken hide yes, but I havent seen any "clear" pics of these stretch marks yet outside of that piece of white leather

I find it very funny though how you who have joined up just 9 months ago 10 days after the announcement that TN had a Raiders jacket are so convinced and confident that whatever he says is true. Tn just happens to get a jacket that is over 28 years old and has been heavily distressed and not being well cared for. How is he able to tell what state that jacket was brought in prior to distressing? He was not there.

Plus Tony Nowak has only been involved in our hobby for less than a year. 2 if you count makng the CS jackets.

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:17 am

TN chose a leather to match the look of a distressed 29 year old jacket,makes sense to me he's not going to choose smooth lambskin to replicate it,he is going to choose the modern leather that best matches what he has in his hands.
I have 30 year lambskin jackets,if I had to pick a leather to match them as they are now I would probably choose shrunken-lamb.
Personally I don't see shrunken lamb anywhere in Raiders..I see natural grain(probably enhanced by water distressing-throw a jacket in the washing machine 3 or 4 times and see for yourself).
I've owned enough leather jackets now(vintage and modern in all hides)and seen hundreds of others to have an informed opinion( 'everyones got one!'

),but I'm willing to change my mind when I see a TN skin that looks like the Raiders jacket-haven't yet.
TN's shrunken-lamb does look like Raiders if you squint your eyes but I haven't seen one yet that matches what I see on screen,looks to me exactly like what thay are-attempts(by a skilled jacket maker) to duplicate a vintage jacket with modern leather.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:30 am

mark seven wrote:TN chose a leather to match the look of a distressed 29 year old jacket,makes sense to me he's not going to choose smooth lambskin to replicate it,he is going to choose the modern leather that best matches what he has in his hands.
I have 30 year lambskin jackets,if I had to pick a leather to match them as they are now I would probably choose shrunken-lamb.
Personally I don't see shrunken lamb anywhere in Raiders..I see natural grain(probably enhanced by water distressing-throw a jacket in the washing machine 3 or 4 times and see for yourself).
I've owned enough leather jackets now(vintage and modern in all hides)and seen hundreds of others to have an informed opinion( 'everyones got one!' ),but I'm willing to change my mind when I see a TN skin that looks like the Raiders jacket-haven't yet.
TN's shrunken-lamb does look like Raiders if you squint your eyes but I haven't seen one yet that matches what I see on screen,looks to me exactly like what thay are-attempts(by a skilled jacket maker) to duplicate a vintage jacket with modern leather.

THANK you ! that made so much sense and I agree with you.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:33 am

Dutch_jones wrote:The thing is, the striations are not an effect of shrinking but how it was pulled of a carcass, this has been said over and over...

By who? Or I should rephrase, this has been repeated over and over by people quoting... who? Is that person objective in the matter?

Shrunken areas as indicated

Dutch_jones wrote: ...to date I have seen ZERO TN jackets that look like the raiders jacket with the marks...

Dutrch, I could have specced mine with this sort of row, and Tony could have accommodated me, but I'm a bit iffy on whether I want a row of mong-looking dots on the front of my jacket. I'm sure others feel the same. It's kinda like Jurassic Park - just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Dutch_jones wrote: ...but I havent seen any "clear" pics of these stretch marks yet outside of that piece of white leather.

Oh, come on. There have been quite a few floating around.

Dutch_jones wrote:Tn just happens to get a jacket that is over 28 years old and has been heavily distressed and not being well cared for. How is he able to tell what state that jacket was brought in prior to distressing? He was not there.

Wow, this is the 4th time I've seen this argument since Peter used it to sidestep the big questions.

Answer me this then, Dutch. How come the first time Peter was asked to replicate his jacket by Lee Keppler, he supplied it to Lee in a shrunken hide? Why would he do that?

Dutch_jones wrote:Plus Tony Nowak has only been involved in our hobby for less than a year. 2 if you count makng the CS jackets.

So someone with a decades-long career in supplying Hollywood, AND actually provided the jackets for the latest movie, AND was in the biz when shrunken lamb was the standard, AND continues to use it; is to be put on a LOWER peg than a bunch of dudes obsessed with a particular jacket as a hobby!?!?! You've gotta get out more, Dutch!

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:42 am

mark seven wrote:...but I'm willing to change my mind when I see a TN skin that looks like the Raiders jacket-haven't yet.
TN's shrunken-lamb does look like Raiders if you squint your eyes but I haven't seen one yet that matches what I see on screen,looks to me exactly like what thay are-attempts(by a skilled jacket maker) to duplicate a vintage jacket with modern leather.

If I recall, the techniques used by modern tanneries have indeed changed. Plus, it's organic - one skin is ALWAYS going to look a bit different to the next. A bit more or less additive will create a slightly different effect. Besides, you are NEVER going to see anything that looks the same, unless you start viewing reality via a 35mm Panaflex camera, processed through internegatives, remastered through DVD, etc. and seen with film and digital grain. THAT jacket only exists on screen.

Actually, here's a thought -
To anyone - show me which, of all the jackets you've ever seen attempt to come close - which would it be? (I'm actually serious.) For anyone that thinks Shrunken Lamb is 'wrong' - please show me multiple shots of a jacket that's either 'right' or 'closer'.

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:42 am

3 years ago Deb Nadoolman said that no grey hats were used in Raiders...who were WE to question her authority?
Sometimes you have to trust what you actually SEE and not someone's(more qualified)opinion.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:46 am

mark seven wrote:3 years ago Deb Nadoolman said that no grey hats were used in Raiders...who were WE to question her authority?
Sometimes you have to trust what you actually SEE and not someone's(more qualified)opinion.

I agree - and that has to be applied uniformly to ALL "authority" figures. Strip out all the human players, and what do you have? What does that point to? Leather like your average Wested that's been distressed?

CM · Post by CM » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:50 am

Wow, this is like seeing animals in the shapes of clouds... I see a donkey, no wait, a bear.

Actually I can see some shots that look like the jacket is of a wrinkled leather. If only there were some with better resolution that would convince all of us. There's s certainly some visual evidence here to suggest that shrunken lamb was used.

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:54 am

Yojimbo Jones wrote:
Actually, here's a thought -
To anyone - show me which, of all the jackets you've ever seen attempt to come close - which would it be? (I'm actually serious.) For anyone that thinks Shrunken Lamb is 'wrong' - please show me multiple shots of a jacket that's either 'right' or 'closer'.

Here's one for starters-

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:56 am

mark seven wrote:
Yojimbo Jones wrote:
Actually, here's a thought -
To anyone - show me which, of all the jackets you've ever seen attempt to come close - which would it be? (I'm actually serious.) For anyone that thinks Shrunken Lamb is 'wrong' - please show me multiple shots of a jacket that's either 'right' or 'closer'.
Here's one for starters-

Really? Is that a Todd's?

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:00 am

Can someone actually list some of the films Tony has worked on back then.

The first seem to be the later Terminator films, and this probably came from his association with Arnie.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:02 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretch_marks

and if you still believe its caused by either enzymes or shrinking well then....

Stretch marks usually appear during growth periods or when someone quickly gain or lose weight. When your height and body alters, your skin must expand to adapt the growth. Stretch marks are extremely common during age of puberty and pregnancy. Periods when the skin experiences fast alterations.

It works for animals too!

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:05 am

Yojimbo Jones wrote:
mark seven wrote:
I agree - and that has to be applied uniformly to ALL "authority" figures. Strip out all the human players, and what do you have? What does that point to? Leather like your average Wested that's been distressed?

No.The Raiders jacket was not an 'average' Wested jacket.The lambskin Wested uses now is completely different-a million miles away!.Peter has admitted that he can't duplicate that leather with modern techniques(and TN can't either-no jacket maker has IMO).
Shrunken-lamb is just an attempt to replicate the look of that original leather..one man's interpretation.
Yes Yojimbo,that's Todds Custom.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:11 am

mark seven wrote:
Yojimbo Jones wrote:
mark seven wrote:
I agree - and that has to be applied uniformly to ALL "authority" figures. Strip out all the human players, and what do you have? What does that point to? Leather like your average Wested that's been distressed?
No.The Raiders jacket was not an 'average' Wested jacket.The lambskin Wested uses now is completely different-a million miles away!.Peter has admitted that he can't duplicate that leather with modern techniques(and TN can't either-no jacket maker has IMO)Shrunken-lamb is just an attempt to replicate the look of that original leather..one man's interpretation.
Yes Yojimbo,that's Todds Custom.

Agreed, its Tony Nowaks interception and that does not make it fact. No matter how long he has been making jackets.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:16 am

mark seven wrote:
Yojimbo Jones wrote:
mark seven wrote:
I agree - and that has to be applied uniformly to ALL "authority" figures. Strip out all the human players, and what do you have? What does that point to? Leather like your average Wested that's been distressed?
No.The Raiders jacket was not an 'average' Wested jacket.The lambskin Wested uses now is completely different-a million miles away!.Peter has admitted that he can't duplicate that leather with modern techniques(and TN can't either-no jacket maker has IMO)Shrunken-lamb is just an attempt to replicate the look of that original leather..one man's interpretation.
Yes Yojimbo,that's Todds Custom.

Yep, and I reckon it's closest so far, by a mile. So close that to me, you'd have to examine a jacket in person to really find a discernable "real life" difference between the right level of shrunken lamb and an actual costume jacket. (and I share your enthusiasm for the Todd's, btw, was going to get one before the Nowak came along)

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:19 am

well but Yojimbo just the close leather does not excuse the rest of the jacket, the body length the strap hardware... That does weigh in too. Its at the top I agree ! but Theres still no one that comes really close !

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:24 am

Dutch_jones wrote:well but Yojimbo just the close leather does not excuse the rest of the jacket, the body length the strap hardware... That does weigh in too. Its at the top I agree ! but Theres still no one that comes really close !

I really probably sound like a total Tony fanboy. For that I apologise. But I honestly can't see where you're coming from. The length is in the ballpark for what would fit Ford - you've SEEN the comparisons between the CS jacket and it, and others that people such as myself have done. But that's all customisable to each buyer like every other jacket on the market is, so that shouldn't even enter the equasion. As for hardware, I for one don't want an aluminium zip painted brass. And the triglides can't be questioned either. So yes, I agree, nothing else comes close.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:40 am

I have to clarify because it was taken the wrong way. When I said no one comes close I meant: No one comes close as in no one makes an accurate raiders.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:44 am

Dutch_jones wrote:I have to clarify because it was taken the wrong way. When I said no one comes close I meant: No one comes close as in no one makes an accurate raiders.

So what would you do differently?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:50 am

Yojimbo Jones wrote:
Dutch_jones wrote:I have to clarify because it was taken the wrong way. When I said no one comes close I meant: No one comes close as in no one makes an accurate raiders.
So what would you do differently?

I would take the TOD jacket as a reference and start working from that That is what I would do.

Iam gonna come back later on the length of the replica TN and the Raiders jacket, Iam looking for pictures;) stay tuned $\:D/$

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:54 am

okey dokey.

But, hey, Dutch, post it in a different thread! This is about texture, not length.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:58 am

http://www.leathercentremalta.com/page12.html

Growth marks and veins. These are an indication of the age of the animal and, in that respect, are similar to the graining on a piece of timber. They range from often quite pronounced marks in the neck area to subtle bands across the hide perpendicular to the backbone which are often seen on natural full grain leathers.

- Mac

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:04 am

Mac wrote:http://www.leathercentremalta.com/page12.html

Growth marks and veins. These are an indication of the age of the animal and, in that respect, are similar to the graining on a piece of timber. They range from often quite pronounced marks in the neck area to subtle bands across the hide perpendicular to the backbone which are often seen on natural full grain leathers.
- Mac

YOU lie

It is Shrunken !!!

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:10 am

To me, this is one area where we can all be right. Wouldn't the process of shrinking lambskins make such scarring / stretching more pronounced? And isn't it possible that BOTH causes of such marks could co-exist?

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:32 am

Yojimbo Jones wrote:To me, this is one area where we can all be right. Wouldn't the process of shrinking lambskins make such scarring / stretching more pronounced? And isn't it possible that BOTH causes of such marks could co-exist?

- Mac

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:37 am

That's what I was thinking Yojimbo! Having stretch-marks myself (I grew realy fast, skin on legs couldn't keep up) I know what they look like, and they arn't puffy like that. But if you were to tann skin with stretchmarks and either not stretch it out in the final drying proces, or ad chemicals to make shrunken grain artificialy, I'd immagine they would pop and get as bubly as that.

Also, I had a jacket which had stretch-marks and they weren't bubly at all, but this was cowhide so it might not be the best comparrison.

Regards, Geert

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:45 am

All these posts are off topic. If you want to see rhino hide, go to the source:

Okay, question answered. Can we move on now?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:47 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:All these posts are off topic. If you want to see rhino hide, go to the source:

Okay, question answered. Can we move on now?

Aaw Bink !

Not even a Fedora on the Rhino?

OK moving on here !

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:52 am

Oh, I forgot: I posted this in the other thread but it's relevant here as well, as pictures are being submitted as evidence of grain/no grain jackets here as well:

I agree with Yojimbo that lighting can play a huge part in how much grain you see. For instance, look at this picture:

It doesn't appear to have that much grain at all in this picture. Now look at this:

This is the same jacket but under different lighting and photographed much closer to the jacket.

What this demonstrates is that not only can we not go by screengrabs, but pictures can be pretty decieving as well.

Regards, Geert

Now I believe the jackets were indeed shrunken grain leather, but I have to admit that there's no conclusive proof but only hearsay (same goes for the other side of the debate). So I'll just state that in my opinion the shrunken lamb looks the most acurate. I always saw the jacket as textured and I was shocked that when I came here everybody seemed to think it was smooth. I have yet to see a leather that looks more to me like what I personaly see when I watch Raiders than the shrunken lamb.

Regards, Geert

EDIT: pictures fixed

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:46 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:All these posts are off topic. If you want to see rhino hide, go to the source:

FINALLY! I have my question answered! I've got to have one of these jackets!

Just surprised you didn't say...'use the search function and...'

A rhino might make at least 10-20 Indy jackets and all of them a different texture!

KT, you are one of the few on the boards that personally handled a screen used jacket, correct? What type of leather: smooth, grainy, shrunken, etc? What I'm seeing is that the leather occasionally had some irregularities, on certain panels of the jacket, with shrinking due to water exposure, add to it distressing and discoloration layerd on top of it.

When someone gets a Todd's, what is the first thing they do to the jacket, usually?...water treatment. Take the natural oils out of the leather and it....shrinks.

After having access to a screen used stunt man's jacket, why didn't G&B, Todd and others make purely shrunken leather jackets from the beginning?

A year ago, no one was talking about shrunken hide? It's a trend.

Put the moisture back into one of your shrunken lamb jackets and you might have actually bought a size 60.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:55 am

The jacket Kt saw was a ToD jacket, not to be confused with a Raiders.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:56 pm

Texan Scott wrote: What I'm seeing is that the leather occasionally had some irregularities, on certain panels of the jacket, with shrinking due to water exposure, add to it distressing and discoloration layerd on top of it.

According to Dutch it takes multiple and complete water exposures. I said before, I hope someone takes their new smooth lamb jacket and tries this. Then reports back if they actually have a comfortable, usable and wearable jacket.

Texan Scott wrote:When someone gets a Todd's, what is the first thing they do to the jacket, usually?...water treatment. Take the natural oils out of the leather and it....shrinks.

It's not the same process. Water alone will not create the same effect.

Texan Scott wrote:After having access to a screen used stunt man's jacket, why didn't G&B, Todd and others make purely shrunken leather jackets from the beginning?

By all accounts they did not have access to a jacket, only measurements of a jacket.

Texan Scott wrote:A year ago, no one was talking about shrunken hide? It's a trend.

It's not a 'trend' it's a revelation that it seems no one here had considered before. Actually seems few had even considered anything but a smooth hide before. Suddenly people are seeing in photos what only a few months ago they said wasn't there at all.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:00 pm

Yojimbo Jones wrote:
mark seven wrote:
Yojimbo Jones wrote:
Actually, here's a thought -
To anyone - show me which, of all the jackets you've ever seen attempt to come close - which would it be? (I'm actually serious.) For anyone that thinks Shrunken Lamb is 'wrong' - please show me multiple shots of a jacket that's either 'right' or 'closer'.
Here's one for starters-

Really? Is that a Todd's?

That would be a Todd's.
What exactly do we see in that photo? Do we see grain, striations any other marks other than artificial distressing, i.e. from sanding the surface? It's not exactly the best photo.

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:01 pm

I know a bunch of guys around here had done some artificial distressing of their Westeds years ago, I wonder if any care to post photos of their work.

Kevin Anderson · Post by **Kevin Anderson** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:08 pm

That pic is a Todd's? It has to be a custom, surely?
Not at all like the Standard I received last year.
Personally, I like a leather with some grain, some character. I'm glad I sold my 'smooth' Wested lambs.
They were lifeless. That sort of leather belongs on a couch (sofa!), not a jacket. Not a mens jacket, at any rate.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:15 pm

Kevin Anderson wrote:That pic is a Todd's? It has to be a custom, surely?
Not at all like the Standard I received last year.

It's a standard, but a newer version than you bought as Todd updated the jacket a couple of months ago.

Regards, Geert

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:25 pm

Zendragon wrote:I know a bunch of guys around here had done some artificial distressing of their Westeds years ago, I wonder if any care to post photos of their work.

I've only seen artificial distressing in the form of alcohol, acetone and sandpaper treatments, maybe one soaking posted here. One or two people admitted they ruined their jacket.
The water treatment Dutch describes is more extensive than a single washing or shower, and I've yet to see anyone post about seriously going at their jacket with a knife and wire brush as described by DN. That's what I'd like to see the effect of.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:55 pm

There was a golden opportunity for a vendor to answer questions about the leather, among other questions.

On nearly all gear issues it's been shown (and repeated) looking at photos will never be definitive. Consider talking to someone who knows tanning (not a jacket maker, but a tanner) and also talking to Tony Nowak directly.

Why don't the biggest skeptics ask Nowak directly about the nature of the leather? Not to make up your mind one way or the other, but at least to hear directly from the person who revealed this. I'm sure he'd call back if phone charges are an issue and I know he doesn't force people into a sale as suggested elsewhere.

To my eyes, the shrunken lamb is a chameleon and takes on many guises in the photos members here have posted of their own jackets. At times it appears smooth or textured depending on the light, distance, and other factors. Sometimes you can see ridges and lines, sometimes not. If people believe distressing can make this happen, I’d love to see an experiment to make it so.

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:10 pm

Raider S wrote:There was a golden opportunity for a vendor to answer questions about the leather, among other questions.

On nearly all gear issues it's been shown (and repeated) looking at photos will never be definitive. Consider talking to someone who knows tanning (not a jacket maker, but a tanner) and also talking to Tony Nowak directly.

Why don't the biggest skeptics ask Nowak directly about the nature of the leather? Not to make up your mind one way or the other, but at least to hear directly from the person who revealed this. I'm sure he'd call back if phone charges are an issue and I know he doesn't force people into a sale as suggested elsewhere.

To my eyes, the shrunken lamb is a chameleon and takes on many guises in the photos members here have posted of their own jackets. At times it appears smooth or textured depending on the light, distance, and other factors. Sometimes you can see ridges and lines, sometimes not. If people believe distressing can make this happen, I’d love to see an experiment to make it so.

Skeptic or not, anyone who talked to Tony directly would only provide the same information that we have now.

I think what it comes down to is whether you believe what you are told or not. If you do, then there aren't many arguments that will change your mind.

I have issues with the leather being as smooth as what Peter is selling, but I also have issues with the dino hide that was first presented to us as THE leather to have. Apparently, several TN owners must have felt the same because they ordered something that looked different.