My Herbert Johnsons

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:30 pm

If you'd all indulge me a bit here, I generally don't spend a lot of time in the Fedora section, and most of my time in the Jackets. I was rummaging around in my gear box and pulled out my Herbert Johnsons. I don't really know a lot about these, as I bought them back in the day ... mostly sometime in the early 90s I think, but later for one.

Anyway, I thought I'd post links to pics here and see what is known about them. I've been pondering an Adventurebilt for a while now, but thought I should know what I have first.

The 3 hats from above:
http://s701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... -above.jpg
The 3 hats from the front:
http://s701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... -front.jpg
The 3 hats inside:
http://s701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... inside.jpg
Hat #1 inside:
http://s701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... inside.jpg
Hat #2 inside:
http://s701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... inside.jpg
Hat #3 inside:
http://s701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... inside.jpg

I think that I bought #3 first, then #2 and then #1. I'm pretty sure #3 was through Lee Keppler, and maybe #2. #1 was an ebay purchase if I remember right. Anyway, I thought they'd be worth a peek and any info would be appreciated.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:05 pm

Check your links for all your pics. I just get popped over to my photo bucket account.

IndianaChris711 · Post by **IndianaChris711** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:06 pm

I guess I can't see pics unless I sign into photobucket which I am not part of, I use Flickr so cannot really comment on the hats.

EDIT

Looks like Oak beat me to it, post the actual links to the pictures if you can, then we can give you comments on your HJ's

IndianaChris

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:21 pm

Sorry, copied links wrong. Should be ok now.

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:56 pm

Wow, I'm envious! The one on the right (#2?) is the best in terms of color and blockshape, but they all are great for historical value. Different logos inside each one! That one with the lighter ribbon, it has the old diamond-shaped logo from Last Crusade! (at least I think that's where it appeared) The other two have great color and shape - they make great Raiders hats as well as probably making a perfect LC hat, since that's the era they came from.

Can I buy one off you?

Seriously!

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:34 am

Great pics! I love original Herbert Johnson fedoras. Here's mine:

Isn't she a beaut?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:35 am

I still can't get over the front parts of the bow being kicked up like that.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:54 am

I wish I had known about Swales before he retired so I could have picked up one of those. I don't see much sense in getting an HJ now, though, unless you want the Temple of Doom look, which I do like, or the Last Crusade look.

Dave

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:05 pm

Was there some chronology or meaning to the different lining emblems? I never thought much about it, but I have three hats each with a different inside. The one with the pentagon symbol has a smaller brim, though and a LC kind of bash to it. I like the asymmetrical trim to the second one with the white emblem in the lining. The one with the maroon emblem has the widest brim.

They all feel awfully luxurious, with good solid felt, fairly stiff, but not at all rigid.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:22 pm

I still can't get over the front parts of the bow being kicked up like that.

It would be cool to get it fixed by Steve at AB, but I'm pretty sure he has his hands full just making hats!

Mitch LaRue · Post by **Mitch LaRue** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:41 pm

Tibor, thank you so much for showing us these shots of these hats!
I love seeing these older HJ's... it's a very enlightening part of the "education" of the subject of these hats.
I really appreciate it.

Fox

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:13 am

How far do these date back, Tibor and WW? Looks like the crown liner changed with subsequent iterations.

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:39 am

Oh man, let me see. Hat #2 with the white emblem is the first I got. I think that one is from right around 1990 (I'm guessing here). Hat #3 is slightly later, but I would say 1992ish. Hat #1 with the diamond shaped emblem was an ebay purchase in the late 90's, I'm pretty sure.

It's really tough to remember this stuff. While typing, I began to wonder if I got #3 first (it's a 7 3/8 and is just slightly large on me. Lee suggested I put it in the back shelf of the car in the sun to shrink it down some (I never did that). I generally wear a 7 1/4.

The problem with all these is I'm not entirely sure when they were made, (much less when I bought them). And I guess it's fair to say that just because I think I got #1 last, doesn't mean it was made last, though it might. From what I've read, that is the emblem in the LC hat, so, so, ...so I guess all that tells me is it was made some time around or after 1988 or so.

Does anyone know which lining was used in the hats that appear in Raiders?

Local Land Surveyor · Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:25 am

Tibor wrote:Oh man, let me see. Hat #2 with the white emblem is the first I got. I think that one is from right around 1990 (I'm guessing here). Hat #3 is slightly later, but I would say 1992ish. Hat #1 with the diamond shaped emblem was an ebay purchase in the late 90's, I'm pretty sure.

It's really tough to remember this stuff. While typing, I began to wonder if I got #3 first (it's a 7 3/8 and is just slightly large on me. Lee suggested I put it in the back shelf of the car in the sun to shrink it down some (I never did that). I generally wear a 7 1/4.

The problem with all these is I'm not entirely sure when they were made, (much less when I bought them). And I guess it's fair to say that just because I think I got #1 last, doesn't mean it was made last, though it might. From what I've read, that is the emblem in the LC hat, so, so, ...so I guess all that tells me is it was made some time around or after 1988 or so.

Does anyone know which lining was used in the hats that appear in Raiders?

To my knowledge, no one has ever seen one or knows. I asked Steve that very question when I visited him, by the way. To his knowledge no one knew. With the latest discussions from Nadoolmans interview, it would be interesting to know what liner went into the "bespoken" hats for Raiders.
Great collection. I love the different logo's. I have never seen the "white colored" label of Hat #2 before.

Have you ever had the chance to compare these hats to the modern version that is produced today?
Is "The Poet" or something similar written on the sweatband as well?

The one person that comes to my mind about the time line and location would be Dakota Ellison. He posted a list one time of Hersbert Johnson locations and time frame.
Thanks for posting these Tibor.

These kinds of post is just like finding a rare artifact.

LLS

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:35 am

Tibor wrote:
Does anyone know which lining was used in the hats that appear in Raiders?

I believe at least the ones in Lucasfilm's archive had a little blue shield-shaped crest, if memory serves. I never had that lining in any of the HJ's I've owned over the years, but I did have all 3 of the others in your photos. Sold most of them, though.

Great collection!

Jack

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:22 pm

Mine dates from April/May 1999, but as stated above, that does not necessarily mean that the hat was physically made at that time. It may have been made earlier, and Swales just pulled it from the back room and finished it for me. Who knows?

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:49 pm

As I recall, and I believe this is accurate, I bought my first HJ from Lee Keppler in late 1989, and it had the maroon oval. My second I also bought from Lee sometime in '90, and it had the white oval. The third I got in '92 directly from HJ, and it had the red pentagon. Then I got the Young Indy hat with the white oval logo from Mr. Gitard (sp.?) at HJ the same year. I wish I still had that one, because the blockshape and floppiness were more Raiders-like than any of the others.

Then Mr. Swales made one for me in '93. It also had the white oval. That was my favorite and it and the second one I got from Lee are now all I have left of the older HJ's. My Magnoli HJ looks better than any of them, but the quality of the materials is not as good.

Don't know if this means anything to anyone but me or how useful it might be, but there it is.

Jack

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:57 pm

whipwarrior wrote:Great pics! I love original Herbert Johnson fedoras. Here's mine:

Isn't she a beaut?

Really a nice hat! I think the raised bow makes it look distinctive. I bet you can tell yours apart from any other?

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:08 pm

Yeah, the bow is distinctive, and I have to admit that it has grown on me over the past ten years, but I really wish it was even with the rest of the ribbon. Then it would be perfect.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:10 pm

whipwarrior wrote:Yeah, it's distinctive, and I have to admit that it has grown on me over the past ten years, but I really wish it was even with the rest of the ribbon. Then it would be perfect.

Does it have the clear plastic covering over the logo?

Jack

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:22 pm

No, it's just a fabric sticker that was glued onto the liner. I had to sew it back on when it started to peel off during a particularly hot summer day, back in 2002. Hence the visible stitching around the logo.

P.S.- My hat will be exactly 10 years old on May 16th (the day that I received it in the mail). Wouldn't it be an awesome synchronicity if I actually got my AB on that day?

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:28 pm

whipwarrior wrote:No, it's just a fabric sticker that was glued onto the liner. I had to sew it back on when it started to peel off during a particularly hot summer day, back in 2002. Hence the visible stitching around the logo.

I was just curious because all my older ones had the covering and I wonder when HJ stopped using them. I did not notice the stitching though, and it certainly doesn't hurt the value of your hat, esp. since Swales isn't making them anymore. That is a keeper you've got, for sure!

Jack

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:41 pm

Thanks. If you go back to the early threads of this forum, you'll find that it is an oft-praised hat. Fedora himself used to compliment it, if you can imagine that! It has particular sentimental value because it was the first thing that I ever bought with my first 2 paychecks from my first job ever. Still, I can't wait for the day when I can display my Adventurebilt CS beside it. Few people can boast owning two Indy fedoras hand-crafted by the original movie hat makers.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:55 pm

Jack

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:56 pm

Great info Jack. My dates may well line up with yours - I didn't keep track as well as you. As I said, I may have picked up the hat with the maroon emblem in the liner first and then, finding it a bit loose, went after a second (which I think has the trim by Mr. Swales) with the white emblem. I do think I got the hat with the pentagon emblem later in the 90s, and that makes sense as it was definitely pre-owned - someone's initials are punched into the leather headband... GKW.

Now maybe the original owner will pop up on the boards...
George, Gregory, Gary
Kenneth, Keith, Kevin
Williams, Wilson, Warren,

I also have a cheapo Disney wool that I wear when I use the snowblower. Nothing like a fedora and a high collar to keep the snow out but still see what you're doing.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:15 pm

Tibor wrote:Great info Jack. My dates may well line up with yours - I didn't keep track as well as you. As I said, I may have picked up the hat with the maroon emblem in the liner first and then, finding it a bit loose, went after a second (which I think has the trim by Mr. Swales) with the white emblem. I do think I got the hat with the pentagon emblem later in the 90s, and that makes sense as it was definitely pre-owned - someone's initials are punched into the leather headband... GKW.

Now maybe the original owner will pop up on the boards...
George, Gregory, Gary
Kenneth, Keith, Kevin
Williams, Wilson, Warren,

I also have a cheapo Disney wool that I wear when I use the snowblower. Nothing like a fedora and a high collar to keep the snow out but still see what you're doing.

Yes, I also had my share of the "officially licensed" stuff. Most of them are not that bad really, they just don't look very accurate to the movies.

There was a fellow named Geoffrey K. Watkins who had a large Indy collection for sale in the early 90's, and I bought a lot of stuff from him. Who knows, perhaps it's the same guy!

Jack

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:01 am

Jack you are one heck of an archivist. I can pull up names of folks in the old movie poster hobby, but I wish I'd been more careful about when and where I got my Indy gear. Some of it I have some papers on, like my old Wested. I still have the shipment papers from that.

Funny, that old Disney wool crush-proof has been with me for a lot of years now. I'm kinda glad I didn't abuse the HJs. The Disney isn't even lined, but it does the job in Winter. It's fun to get to the back door and have to remember to shake of the hat before going in (and dripping).

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:24 am

My oldest HJ has been put through the mill over the years, but it still looks great-- even though it has tapered. I even left it out of its box for years, deliberstely, so it would collect dust. The hat I wore most, though, was one of the early Stetson fur felts that came out at the time of TOD, and it is pretty much a wreck now. It looks as though your Disney has fared better.

Anyway, I do have a pretty good memory, but the reason I remember Geoff so well is that I spoke to him on the phone many times as we arranged our transactions (no eBay in those days).

Jack

thecoolmiester · Post by **thecoolmiester** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:18 am

whipwarrior wrote:Great pics! I love original Herbert Johnson fedoras. Here's mine:

Isn't she a beaut?

what do u mean original?
do u mean like off the swaine adeney brigg website?

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:06 am

The HJs you get off the SAB site are not really Herbert Johnsons anymore than a modern Stetson is a real Stetson. The name is the same but that is all. WhipWarriors HJ was bought directly from Richard Swales, if I'm not mistaken. That means he got his HJ directly from the man who made the hats for Raiders at Herbert Johnson.

Dave

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:30 am

"That is correct, sir!" (Phil Hartman as Ed McMahon) - SNL

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:14 pm

So sad what happened to Phil. I still find myself saying "That is correct sir!" from time to time. Usually once a day.

Dave

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:45 pm

I can't imagine there were that many people with those initials collecting Indy hats. Maybe Geoff was the one. Wonder what ever happened to him and why he sold off.

Ah well, great to ponder the past and the quirks of fate.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:21 pm

Tibor wrote:I can't imagine there were that many people with those initials collecting Indy hats. Maybe Geoff was the one. Wonder what ever happened to him and why he sold off.

Ah well, great to ponder the past and the quirks of fate.

Geoff told me it was just the right time for him to let go of his collection, and that he found the extra space he was gaining refreshing.

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that I once had your hat in my possession! One of the items I bought from Geoff was an HJ with a very wide ribbon and it was a great hat, but the brim was a little narrow for my taste and Geoff took it back from me.

It would be something if your hat is the same one! At the time, it only had a top crease and no front pinch. And it had the red oval or red pentagon logo in the lining. I don't recall seeing the initials, but it's been a long time. I do recall him telling me he bought it directly from HJ.

If Geoff is still with us in some way, shape or form, maybe he will weigh in with more details for you, if it was indeed his hat.

Are you out there somewhere, Geoff?

Jack

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:36 pm

Great hats! It's weird how the logo or hatters crest changed so often. My fav HJ crest is the blue and gold one with what looks like a unicorn or something similiar. The pentagon crest is visible in TLC so that was used in that film. I wonder too what crest was in the Raiders fedora. Seems like I heard it was the blue and gold one. But the guys or guy that owns one ain't talking!!!

I agree on the quality aspect of the current HJs versus the older ones. But have discovered that if I use a size er, say, 7 7/8 new HJ to make a size 7 Mag HJ, the felt tightenes up and is really quite nice. The shrinkage does that. The larger sizes can never achieve this though. They don't make size 10 hats to use to shrink down to a size like a 7 5/8. Wish they did. Fedora

Indycrazy5187 · Post by **Indycrazy5187** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:52 pm

sweet lid Whipwarrior.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:45 am

A-thank you.

thecoolmiester · Post by **thecoolmiester** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:55 pm

could we see some more shots of yur original HJ, whipwarrior?

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:11 am

Sure. Here's the HJ folder on my Flickr page: http://www.flickr.com/photos/9911326@N0 ... 802192589/

I recently had the opportunity to examine an Adventurebilt fedora in-person (which I have never done before), and I was amazed at how much thinner the felt was compared to my Herbert Johnson. It was extremely flexible and malleable, an altogether different and quite remarkable hat, because you can't really discern things like felt thickness or density looking at the movie, or pictures. It really does have to be appreciated in person.

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:50 pm

A buyer's question here... does anyone make a relatively inexpensive hat with a high Raiders style crown? I was thinking of something less than $100, but that may not cut it. Two of my HJs have pretty high crowns and I like that about them. The one with the LC lining is a bit shorter.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:58 pm

Its pretty much accepted that the Christy's is an HJ without the name on the liner and sweat. You might want to try them at www.hornetshats.com .

Dave

Tremolo · Post by **Tremolo** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:01 pm

The Christy´s Adventurer comes to mind, especially if you´re looking for something relatively inexpensive. According to hornetshats the crown is 5 3/4" high, and my Christy´s is 5 3/4 as well so it seems to be right

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:26 pm

I thought my Christys was a bargain at $100.00. The last time I checked, the exchange rate had it selling for $73.00-- a fantastic value.

Jack

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:01 pm

Thanks guys. What color is generally most accurate: sable, light sable, cork or peat wood?

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:17 pm

Sable and Light Sable are the most popular around here. I think Cork is the best way to go, but I may be the only one that thinks so.

Dave

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:02 pm

Tibor wrote:Thanks guys. What color is generally most accurate: sable, light sable, cork or peat wood?

If you are looking for SA, I'd go with the light sable. It's still just a tad darker than my vintage HJ's, but a very close match. As far as I can tell, there isn't too much difference between sable and light sable, though.

Jack