Optical Illusions (and do ghosts really steal my pencils?)

[Raider S]

Something I just noticed in photos I posted in another thread seemed like it might be a good thread of it's own. I know there's a lot of talk about what one see's (or thinks they see) in photo's versus what that object might actually be like in "real life", so here's my first example.




If you look at the two photos I posted it seems as if the flap in the bottom photo is actually longer than the flap in the top photo. Holding them against each other and measuring they are exactly the same, however. Because of a slight tilt of the camera the perspective of the photo shifts enough to create an illusion of different size.

These photos were taken within seconds of each other and in the same lighting. The little point-and-shoot camera was not on a tripod or any other support and the jacket moved between shots. So differences in the jacket placement and the angle the camera was held would account for the shift.

[Zendragon]

They look a little different, but not at different as the photo that dutch posted.

But that would make sense, considering they are both pockets from your jacket, I wonder how they would compare against another jacket?

As a photographer, I totally agree about the angle thing. It can distort

Although in this case, it looks like you have a photo of a right and left pocket... so it leaves it open that they could be different

[CM]

They look the same to me, but I take your point. Photos are unreliable.

[St. Dumas]

The only optical illusions I see in the bottom pocket are the old lady's face, the young lady's face and the skull.

SD

[RCSignals]

......... Photos are unreliable.

Yes very. More so when you take different photos taken by different people at different times under different conditions and expect to compare them as all being identical.

[Kt Templar]

I don't think it's an optical illusion that the top pocket flap is convex in the right one side and concave on the left.

[Zendragon]

These photos were part of why this thread was created, so I will toss them into the mix

I wanted to back up what I meant a bit so I made some comparisson pics. just showing something i've observed!


they're the right pocket of 2 different jackets, one is one of the very first TN jackets that belonged to Chris King and the other is a newer one.

The photo at the bottom is said to be the Chris King jacket combined with Raskolnikov, the photo on top I believe are King, Raskolnikov and Raider S

To me at least there are differences in the pocket flaps and it isn't camera angle.

The question that I asked in the other thread was, considering that King was supposed to have an exact copy of the hero jacket, did Raskolnikov or Raider S have any mods made?

[Hatch]

I don't think it's an optical illusion that the top pocket flap is convex in the right one side and concave on the left.

That's called 'artistic freedom'

[RCSignals]

It is illusion. People said the Wested ToD pocket flaps all looked different as well, when they are all from the same pattern, traced from the original.

[RCSignals]

.......

The photo at the bottom is said to be the Chris King jacket combined with Raskolnikov, the photo on top I believe are King, Raskolnikov and Raider S

To me at least there are differences in the pocket flaps and it isn't camera angle.

The question that I asked in the other thread was, considering that King was supposed to have an exact copy of the hero jacket, did Raskolnikov or Raider S have any mods made?

You can see the camera angle is different. It's quite obvious.

You can't tell anything definitive from those photos. Measurements would be better, but even those have varied here when done by different people. (sometimes the same person)

[Kt Templar]

Try answering the question based on the evidence on hand. And in the first case on one jacket not made by Wested.

[RCSignals]

Try answering the question based on the evidence on hand. And in the first case on one jacket not made by Wested.

your point?

[Kt Templar]

Answer the question.

[RCSignals]

Answer the question.

what is the question?

[Satipo]

Is it safe?

[Kt Templar]

Why are a few people harping on about pictures not telling a true story when the story doesn't suit them, but when it does suit them posting pics in other threads and saying,"I told you so".

Those 3 pockets are different.

The answer you need is, pockets are machined by people. Some will be different.

Makers like G&B have high tech cutting equipment, it reduces some of the 'artistic input' of the cutter.

[Cavalcade]

Is it safe?

[RCSignals]

Why are a few people harping on about pictures not telling a true story when the story doesn't suit them, but when it does suit them posting pics in other threads and saying,"I told you so".

Those 3 pockets are different.

The answer you need is, pockets are machined by people. Some will be different.

Makers like G&B have high tech cutting equipment, it reduces some of the 'artistic input' of the cutter.

I'm not sure a cutter has or should have 'artistic input'.

The three pockets are not 'different'

What was being harped on and suggested was that a different pattern is being used.
A different pattern is not being used, just as a different pattern is not being used for Wested's NH ToD jacket flaps.

Yes, there will be slight differences/variances in every jacket, no two will be exactly the same even though substantially the same, but that does not equate to a change of pattern.

Photos such as these prove nothing.

[Zendragon]

Why are a few people harping on about pictures not telling a true story when the story doesn't suit them, but when it does suit them posting pics in other threads and saying,"I told you so".

Those 3 pockets are different.

The answer you need is, pockets are machined by people. Some will be different.

Makers like G&B have high tech cutting equipment, it reduces some of the 'artistic input' of the cutter.

I'm not sure a cutter has or should have 'artistic input'.

The three pockets are not 'different'

What was being harped on and suggested was that a different pattern is being used.
A different pattern is not being used, just as a different pattern is not being used for Wested's NH ToD jacket flaps.

Yes, there will be slight differences/variances in every jacket, no two will be exactly the same even though substantially the same, but that does not equate to a change of pattern.

Photos such as these prove nothing.

Looking at that photo merge though, with the King jacket and the other one, to me, it looks like everything is pretty closely lined up. If I am seeing what I think I am seeing, the King pocket flap is smaller than the other one. If everything else is lined up close, then you would think the pocket flap would be too right?

If that is an optical illusion, then it's a good one.

I don't know if we could do it, but it would be cool for each person to take a photo with their TN jacket with a ruler lying right next to it. All do it the same way and then there would be no optical illusions.

[Kt Templar]

Photos taken from essentially the same angle will tell a very similar story.

We are all aware of looking at Raiders and seeing a pocket from the front and not really seeing a curvy flap, turn it 45 degrees away from you and BAM ultra pointy, ultra curvy flap.

This is not one of those cases. We are comparing like with like. Straight on snaps. Ok, focal lengths, lighting etc etc are different. It doesn't not stop the first flap of the 3 being demonstrably shorter than the other 2.

In the end you have to take some degree of what you see as proof. Otherwise you might as well throw away your photo ID's and passport as they don't show every nuance of your features and they cannot be used to identify you.

[RCSignals]

...........
In the end you have to take some degree of what you see as proof. Otherwise you might as well throw away your photo ID's and passport as they don't show every nuance of your features and they cannot be used to identify you.

What we are seeng in ID and passpot photos is resemblance of the person photographed. We normally don't see multiple photos depicted side by side. If we did we would see variations in the individual with each photo. This wouldn't mean the person wasn't the same, had a nose job or face lift.

This is the same thing we are seeing in the photos of the pocket flaps, they are of different jackets but the flaps are obviously the same from the same patterns.

[RCSignals]

.............

I don't know if we could do it, but it would be cool for each person to take a photo with their TN jacket with a ruler lying right next to it. All do it the same way and then there would be no optical illusions.

I don't see the point in doing that, and to put it in context of the original assertion it would have to be done with every jacket makers jackets.

I already said measurement is the only way of getting a better idea of size.

..............

You can't tell anything definitive from those photos. Measurements would be better, but even those have varied here when done by different people. (sometimes the same person)

[Zendragon]

.............

I don't know if we could do it, but it would be cool for each person to take a photo with their TN jacket with a ruler lying right next to it. All do it the same way and then there would be no optical illusions.

I don't see the point in doing that, and to put it in context of the original assertion it would have to be done with every jacket makers jackets.

I already said measurement is the only way of getting a better idea of size.

..............

You can't tell anything definitive from those photos. Measurements would be better, but even those have varied here when done by different people. (sometimes the same person)

I wasn't saying to measure them, put a ruler near the pocket and pocket flap, base of the pocket is at the end of the ruler. People can just more easily size that way. If the King pocket is the same size as the others, that would be reflected in a photo like that. In this specific case they are all TN Raiders jackets...

I don't think that there is a soul in here that wouldn't agree that Wested has changed.

[Zendragon]

Dutch, it is a mistake to overlap chis king's pocket flap with rasks. Rask clearly stated on his thread that he wanted the snap higher up. This leads to a different flap. I don't think this is an accurate comparison without that "disclaimer".

If there's actual differences made to these flaps that don't involve mods from the owners, then I can accept that, but I'd like to be sure before jumping to conclusions.

That was the question that I was asking, were mods made? Interestingly enough though, it would appear, it least from looking at them that the middle photo and the one on the far right are very similar in size, but King's pocket flaps look different.

That's what I am seeing anyway

[gwyddion]

To bad Dutch didn't lable which jacket was which: there are 2 jackets, 3pictures and we don't know which one was the modded one..

Regards, Geert

[Zendragon]

To bad Dutch didn't lable which jacket was which: there are 2 jackets, 3pictures and we don't know which one was the modded one..

Regards, Geert

I think he did in the other thread, let me see if I can find it

The first one in the 3 pics lined up is that of Chris King. his is also the one in the combined pic because his was said to be a 1:1 copy of the "hero"

The third pic in the row is that of Raider S
The one in the middle and the second in the combine is that of Raskolnikov


So guys did any of you ask for something specific regarding the pocketflaps?

[gwyddion]

Yes I came across that post myself just now

But that means the difference is probably due to Raskolnikov's mod on the pocket

Regards, Geert

[Zendragon]

I'm not going to get into any kind of argument on this topic because I don't have the stitch nazi eye developed even close to what others have. I do want to point out I have read multiple threads on TN jackets and I seem to remember a few of them have mentioned (and I DON'T quote exactly) something along the lines of, everything is the same as the 000/888 jacket except that I requested the flap be a little different in this way. I remember someone was talking about the amount of leather above the top of the flap stitching and maybe someone got the flap cut sightly different.

The actual jacket owners are going to need to comment on this for pure accuracy, but it looks to me on the surface that these pictures were presented out of context.

I see Zen is doing a thread search, so all will be clear soon.

Dutch said that the jacket on the left was Chris King, middle was Raskolnikov, who apparently had a snap moved up, and the one on the right is Raider S

So the combined photo is of King and Raskolnikov.

I have been tinkering to see if my eye was tricking me, because RC Signals and Raider S both maintain that the jackets are the same and that it is just camera angles.

I am not done with it yet, but I am trying the same thing using RC Signals jacket and the King jacket. I will let you know once it is done what it looks like, but so far, the Raskolnikov and the RC Signals jacket flaps are really close, the King still looks different. Pic to follow.

[Raider S]

I don't think it's an optical illusion that the top pocket flap is convex in the right one side and concave on the left.

I'm not making any statements/guesses about individual Nowak jacket pockets and started the thread in realation to all jackets. But the first photos I posted are from the same jacket and KT says he thinks one flap is convex and concave on the sides.

But again this is an illusion created by the photo, how the jacket was placed when photographed, and how I wear the jacket and might have pulled on a pocket. The sense of depth is often the first thing that goes in photos.

In my hands, putting the pockets together, they are in fact the same. Now with time, wear, and distressing the shape could be altered quite a bit.

[RCSignals]

I don't think that there is a soul in here that wouldn't agree that Wested has changed.

Actually Dutch brought all this up because he was saying all the jacket makers have made changes to their patterns, not just Wested. The two he specifically mentioned were Todd's and TN.

He's yet to put up comparison photos of Todd's pattern changes. He hasn't shown any 'pattern' changes for the TN.

Still waiting for all Dutch's photos for Todd's maybe G+B and others........

[knibs7]

I can't really tell the difference

Kyle

[RCSignals]

Ghost's don't steal pencils. They do however move them around and put them in places where you'd not think to look for them.

[Zendragon]

Ghost's don't steal pencils. They do however move them around and put them in places where you'd not think to look for them.

They do steal single socks though, keeps their tails warm in the winter

[kiltie]

Is it safe?

Flippin' hilarious!!!

[RCSignals]

Ghost's don't steal pencils. They do however move them around and put them in places where you'd not think to look for them.

They do steal single socks though, keeps their tails warm in the winter

Not sure, but that might be a dryer Demon

[Kt Templar]

I don't think it's an optical illusion that the top pocket flap is convex in the right one side and concave on the left.

I'm not making any statements/guesses about individual Nowak jacket pockets and started the thread in realation to all jackets. But the first photos I posted are from the same jacket and KT says he thinks one flap is convex and concave on the sides.

But again this is an illusion created by the photo, how the jacket was placed when photographed, and how I wear the jacket and might have pulled on a pocket. The sense of depth is often the first thing that goes in photos.

In my hands, putting the pockets together, they are in fact the same. Now with time, wear, and distressing the shape could be altered quite a bit.

Okay. Let's see another pic of those 2 pockets today. Let's see if you can achieve are more straight sided image by playing with the angle of your pic.

Both you and NB still refuse to believe that the 2 pockets flaps are different. With the plain facts staring you in the face. Yet he then goes on to quote Nowak. They are hand made and hand cut there will be variances. There is no shame in that.

[Dutch_jones]

Doing some research today about the other jackets... Do you mind if I put it in this thread?

here's the comparrison of the nowak again.

[Dutch_jones]

I didn't mean pattern changes I mean the shape of the flap changed a bit, but that could as stated elsewhere be because of whoever machines the jacket, how many people does Tony Have working in the shop?

[Yojimbo Jones]

I didn't mean pattern changes I mean the shape of the flap changed a bit, but that could as stated elsewhere be because of whoever machines the jacket, how many people does Tony Have working in the shop?

They don't look very different to me. As others have already said, there's nothing here that isn't the result of applying the same pattern to different leather stock on a different day by hand, while sewing a curve. If you've done much sewing you'd get what a &^@$% it can be to get it spot on. It'd expect this sort of variation anyway. I have much more variation on the 2 pockets of the same Wested jacket, and don't begrudge them that.

(Side note - Tony mentioned to me in passing what a pain shrunken lamb is to work with for these sorts of reasons.)

[gwyddion]

I didn't mean pattern changes I mean the shape of the flap changed a bit ...

It only seems logical to me that the shape of the flaps are different as two of the three are flaps with modifications.

Regards, Geert

[Hatch]

I didn't mean pattern changes I mean the shape of the flap changed a bit, but that could as stated elsewhere be because of whoever machines the jacket, how many people does Tony Have working in the shop?

They don't look very different to me. As others have already said, there's nothing here that isn't the result of applying the same pattern to different leather stock on a different day by hand, while sewing a curve. If you've done much sewing you'd get what a &^@$% it can be to get it spot on. It'd expect this sort of variation anyway. I have much more variation on the 2 pockets of the same Wested jacket, and don't begrudge them that.

(Side note - Tony mentioned to me in passing what a pain shrunken lamb is to work with for these sorts of reasons.)

And don't forget there are at least two different leather types/and or batches represented.......going to make a difference when stitching

[Zendragon]

Ok I promised a pic. I basically did something similar to Dutch.

Of course if the King jacket wasn't a 1:1 copy of the hero, then this pic means nothing

The image in green is Raider S's jacket which he says has no mods. The one in red is King's, it is the top layer of the pic.

I matched them as best as I could and you can see that the pockets are mostly in line with each other.

You can also see the King pocket flap and Raider S flap. The King is the top flap and the Raider S appears to be larger.

Like I said, it means nothing if the King isn't a 1:1 copy though. But considering that I took the time to put them together, here ya go.

[Raider S]

Okay. Let's see another pic of those 2 pockets today. Let's see if you can achieve are more straight sided image by playing with the angle of your pic.

Both you and NB still refuse to believe that the 2 pockets flaps are different. With the plain facts staring you in the face. Yet he then goes on to quote Nowak. They are hand made and hand cut there will be variances. There is no shame in that.

It's my own jacket that I wear daily! You think I wouldn't know if the flaps are different unless I took photos of it?

You're proving the point of this thread, however: You shouldn't/can't accept photos as absolute proof yet you are doing exactly that and telling someone they don't even know what their own jacket looks like.

I've been wearing this jacket for weeks when I took these and I've worn it in the shower, in the rain, and throw it on the floor when I'm not wearing it. I also pull on the pockets, the collar, the strap ends, and the ends of the jacket while I'm wearing it. I hope the jacket develops some irregular shapes!

[Raider S]

This putting different photos together is a riot! The photos were made at different angles with different lenses at different distances in different lighting - of course they will all look different!

Are you guys really not getting that that's the entire point of this thread - I could have used photos of USW jacket or a Todd's jacket, it doesn't matter.

You can't make conclusions based on photos alone, even photos taken at nearly the same time by the same person with the same camera.

The only way you could get a photo that would show the true shape is to remove the flaps from a jacket, somehow mount them so they sit perfectly flat and aren't affected by stitching, etc., then go into the studio and use a copy stand making sure there's even illumination on the flaps and a lens with as little distortion as possible (or at least document the distortion uising photos taken of a grid) and make sure all the photos are done the same way and there's some chain of evidence to show the procedure and record the process.

[Zendragon]

This putting different photos together is a riot! The photos were made at different angles with different lenses at different distances in different lighting - of course they will all look different!

Are you guys really not getting that that's the entire point of this thread - I could have used photos of USW jacket or a Todd's jacket, it doesn't matter.

You can't make conclusions based on photos alone, even photos taken at nearly the same time by the same person with the same camera.

The only way you could get a photo that would show the true shape is to remove the flaps from a jacket, somehow mount them so they sit perfectly flat and aren't affected by stitching, etc., then go into the studio and use a copy stand making sure there's even illumination on the flaps and a lens with as little distortion as possible (or at least document the distortion uising photos taken of a grid) and make sure all the photos are done the same way and there's some chain of evidence to show the procedure and record the process.

You can get a reasonable idea. Different angles will only alter the image slightly. If the photos are adusted to line up correctly, even if they are a different angles, it won't be this extreme.

So, while you seem to find the photos hilarious, you also waffle between the King jacket had pocket adjustments and that all the jackets are the same and there is no difference

One of these answers would be correct, but they can't both be.

Anyway, I am glad you enjoyed it. Anyone without their blinders on could see that there appears to be a difference, and like I said, if the King jacket had pocket flap mods, that probably explains it.

[Raider S]

Different angles will only alter the image slightly.

It's only SLIGHT differences people are going nuts about. If you already acknowledge there will be slight differences BECAUSE of the way they were photographed, how can anyone say the pockets are different in the first place?

Nobody has said "wow, those Nowak pockets all look really different". But they have said they look slightly different. Is anyone saying they look different BEYOND what differences there might be from one photo to the next?

Give me a photo of two Wested flaps. I don't care what makers' jacket they come from, the thread is about photos.

[Holt]

this thread here puzzles me alot...

so what if the pockets has a slight differ on them... they are handmade...


look at the original raven bar jacket.

the collar tips on that jacket has one POINTY tip at the rigth side and one ROUND tip on the left side.. they should be alike, but they are handmade

just the way I look at it....

[Raider S]

this thread here puzzles me alot...

so what if the pockets has a slight differ on them... they are handmade...


look at the original raven bar jacket.

the collar tips on that jacket has one POINTY tip at the rigth side and one ROUND tip on the left side.. they should be alike, but they are handmade

just the way I look at it....

Absolutely! And there should be differences. That's why people are paying so much for a jacket - it's handmade and has qualities mass-produced items don't.

But the guys who keep saying that Nowak is changing his pocket (or collar or whatever) design are simply basing their arguments on photos that mean next to zero OR changes requested by a customer OR simple differences in how the leather curled or reacted to the stitching.

[Zendragon]

this thread here puzzles me alot...

so what if the pockets has a slight differ on them... they are handmade...


look at the original raven bar jacket.

the collar tips on that jacket has one POINTY tip at the rigth side and one ROUND tip on the left side.. they should be alike, but they are handmade

just the way I look at it....

I hear what you are saying. From my perspective, I think it matters only if the difference is enough to throw the look off. It would appear (mind you camera angles and what not) that the King pocket flaps are maybe 1/4 of an inch different. If that's the case, that's a pretty large difference even if it is hand made don't you think?

[Hatch]

this thread here puzzles me alot...

so what if the pockets has a slight differ on them... they are handmade...


look at the original raven bar jacket.

the collar tips on that jacket has one POINTY tip at the rigth side and one ROUND tip on the left side.. they should be alike, but they are handmade

just the way I look at it....

Absolutely! And there should be differences. That's why people are paying so much for a jacket - it's handmade and has qualities mass-produced items don't.

But the guys who keep saying that Nowak is changing his pocket (or collar or whatever) design are simply basing their arguments on photos that mean next to zero OR changes requested by a customer OR simple differences in how the leather curled or reacted to the stitching.

Yeah, I actually found a couple of TN sweat stains on the underside of one of my flaps......made me love it even more