MKVII & MKVI updates for Indygear.com

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:02 am

As a follow up of this thread viewtopic.php?t=37620 I post some information that might be useful for an update on the main website regarding the "shoulder bag" section.

I will take the list that is published on the main website and add my findings on each one. Infos which might be eventually included in the official list on the main website. Of all these add-ons I also have pictures which I'm currently uploading on my photobucket and will be available soon.

I hope this will help the community to recollect more and more info about these bags which have been for me always center of attention and a real passion, not only considering them as the Indiana Jones bags but also as real pieces of history, survivors of wwii and almost 70 years of storage!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... 5IS078.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... 5IS080.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... 5IS082.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... 5IS083.jpg

As you can see some are more green some are more "sand" colour. I never preferred one colour to another in my indygear collection.

masa · Post by **masa** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:33 am

Exelent. I'm so excited.

I guess others can post here too if they have bag(s) that aren't on the list?

MkVII:

M. B. Ltd. I. 1942

Pics:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... G_4404.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... G_4401.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... G_4392.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... G_4403.jpg

I have Also a MAPLE MkVI but it has three holes on the bottom and it's dated 1939.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:34 am

Great input masa! Yes of course one can add more that are not on the list on indygear ;-)

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:35 am

You have put your heart and soul into this one, Erri! WELL done!!!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:53 am

And you thought we were uninterested!

;-)

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:53 am

oh well Bink

(thanks for the "important" status of the thread)

Thanks Michaelson, it means a lot to me

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:23 pm

what do those numbered arrows indicate, anyway?

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:46 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:And you thought we were uninterested! ;-)

No, Bink, he said we were uninterestING!

LOL,,

Just kidding ;-)

TR

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:14 pm

Restless Dreamer honestly I don't know the meaning of arrows/numbers, perhaps our "bagman" will tell us

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:18 pm

Very cool!!! Thanks a million.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:22 pm

Many thanks Erri! Well done!

- Mac

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:24 pm

oh thanks a lot to you guys for appreciating it

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:31 pm

Good job buddy!

Now, let's see what the staff will do with updating the main site. Stay tuned.

I'll whipe the drool of my desk now.

High regards,
Swindiana

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:33 pm

hehe thanks swindiana

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:34 pm

I have one that says OBOL in it. At least I thought it was OBOL when I darkened the writing. Maybe it WAS a C....

Shane

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:48 pm

Here are 2 pictures of my OBCL MkVII 1943. I swear it was OBOL, but that's alright. At least something can be documented now, right?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/ ... 8/OBCL.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/ ... /OBCL2.jpg

Shane

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:09 pm

Thanks Shane!

I love the smiley you got with the double-O broad arrow. 8-> ;-)

Keep 'em coming guys!

Regards,
Swindiana

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:12 pm

Erri wrote: Restless Dreamer honestly I don't know the meaning of arrows/numbers, perhaps our "bagman" will tell us

could they refer to the stock number?

masa · Post by **masa** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:19 pm

viewtopic.php?t=11527&highlight=arrow

Here is a thread with info about the arrows posted by the "bag man" himself.

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:26 pm

masa wrote:viewtopic.php?t=11527&highlight=arrow

Here is a thread with info about the arrows posted by the "bag man" himself.

so, if I'm not mistaken, the number indicates the regiment and the arrow the country.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:48 pm

masa wrote:viewtopic.php?t=11527&highlight=arrow

Here is a thread with info about the arrows posted by the "bag man" himself.

great link. I allow myself to paste here a message from that thread which I think is of utmost importance for this thread(/passion)

Swindiana wrote:Guys.

The letters stand for the maker.
The regiment would be denoted by the soldiers serial number, sometimes stamped on Mk VII bags aswell as other equipment.

W&G = Waring & Gilbow Ltd. (1932 was the starting point, just like many modern clothing makers tend to label their stuff with a year.)

R.M.A I'm not sure what it stands for, but you've found a production year that is not yet listed on the main page. That one needs UPDATING.

And here are the different broad arrows for each commonwealth country:

UK

Canada

New Zealand

Australia

India

Union of South Africa

I'm looking for one used in Africa and an Indian one myself. Though called Mk VII, they are of quite a different design.

Regards,
Swindiana

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:20 pm

I have a VII dated 43 from H & S V

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:45 pm

H. & Sons should be Hobson and Sons.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:33 pm

what a great breakdown. awesome work erri!!! you giving swin a run for his money or what?

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:51 pm

Wow! So mine was used by somebody from the UK?

...does anybody have a South African one?

That would be cool to have one where maybe a family member used it.

Shane

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:27 pm

Indiana G wrote:what a great breakdown. awesome work erri!!! you giving swin a run for his money or what?

ahaha, no no just trying to help my fellow maniacs

Thanks G ;-)

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:06 am

McFly wrote:Wow! So mine was used by somebody from the UK?

it's more likely nobody used your bag. I actually bought mine from WPG, unused: their stocks are leftovers. dunno, did you buy yours used?

VP · Post by VP » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:56 pm

The issued bags have markings, the unissued ones don't.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:52 pm

VP wrote:The issued bags have markings, the unissued ones don't.

Generally that's true, although a bag that was issued to a Unit, but never issued to an individual, may have Unit markings on it still.

tym · Post by **tym** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:15 pm

Restless Dreamer wrote:
McFly wrote:Wow! So mine was used by somebody from the UK?
it's more likely nobody used your bag. I actually bought mine from WPG, unused: their stocks are leftovers. dunno, did you buy yours used?

How did WPG acquire its stock? Leftovers in storage in the Middle East after the war?

My bag is a W. E. and S., Ltd., 1942, UK broad arrow design.

VP · Post by VP » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:56 am

RCSignals wrote:
VP wrote:The issued bags have markings, the unissued ones don't.
Generally that's true, although a bag that was issued to a Unit, but never issued to an individual, may have Unit markings on it still.

Yeah, that's the difference between a used bag and an issued bag.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:59 am

VP wrote:
RCSignals wrote:
VP wrote:The issued bags have markings, the unissued ones don't.
Generally that's true, although a bag that was issued to a Unit, but never issued to an individual, may have Unit markings on it still.
Yeah, that's the difference between a used bag and an issued bag.

In my example it would still be an 'unused' bag.
There are a lot of 'new' out there, partly because they continued to produce them even though they were being obsoleted.

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:31 pm

The arrow, or more properly the British Broad Arrow, simply means military issue. When you have two arrows pointing towards each other (tip to tip) it means that item has been retired. You'll see the broad arrow on pretty much every British military item.

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:07 pm

Thanks guys!

Please keep them coming!

Eventually I'll delete redundant posts in order to be able to keep easy track of new info.

I'm boiling the info down now and will provide it further.

The shots publiced will most likely be of various differences found, not posting every single full bag shot. Stay tuned, and once again, keep them coming.

High regards,
Swindiana

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:11 pm

Swindiana wrote: The shots publiced will most likely be of various differences found, not posting every singel full bag shot.

That's why I took all sorts of pictures, so you could choose which detail to pick.
;-)

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:37 pm

Great!

Regards,
Swindiana

Redinight · Post by **Redinight** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:03 pm

I have two Whiteley's from '42, one from a seller on Ebay that is green, one from Peter Wested 3 weeks ago that is sandy colored... Both have smooth snaps.

Then I have this unknown bag from Solder of Fortune website that was purchased 6 years ago. It has a rectangle with MK VII inside on the top, as it appears, and on the the bottom inside the rectangle is ?S? 1942. It has the nice detailled snaps. It was very green until I had to wash the horrible smell from it with oxy clean.... It's faded because of that.

Does anyone have deffinitive proof or screen grab of which snap is more accurate for each movie?

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:19 pm

Some shots have been sent and the maker list is due for an update. Keep them coming and the maker list will be updated as more info drops in.

Thanks!

Regards,
Swindiana

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:33 pm

I've got only one bag and it's in great shape. My only problem with it is the stamping of the maker and stuff is so light, you can barely see it. It's great, but I think if I could find another clean bag with nice clear markings, I'd jump on it for my display piece.

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:08 pm

Any idea what the markings might be and maybe we could figure it out?

Regards,
Swindiana

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:50 pm

Swindiana wrote:Any idea what the markings might be and maybe we could figure it out?

Regards,
Swindiana

No. I can only make out VII and 194?. If you can figure it out from that you're a better man than me Charlie Brown. However, that's why I said I'd like to pick up a nice bag with clear markings for my prop bag.

Montana Hannah · Post by **Montana Hannah** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:43 am

Hi chaps - Hope this hasn't been covered elsewhere, but the arrow marking simply identifies the item of equipment as being the property of and issued by the UK or Commonwealth War Office/Ministry of Defence. You'll find it on many items of British army surplus (I have it stamped inside a pair of WWII vintage leather gauntlets for instance). You often see it on old milestones, and even surreptitiously carved on certain buildings (there was one on my old school) - I think this relates to military cartography. Here's some info on the origin of the mark from Wikipedia - I think it's generally trustworthy for this sort of thing! Hope you find it interesting!

"The Office of Ordnance was created by Henry VIII in 1544.[3] It dates back to the position of Master of Ordnance, one of whom, Nicholas Merbury, was present at the Battle of Agincourt.[4] The Office became the Board of Ordnance in 1597, its principal duties being to supply guns, ammunition, stores and equipment to the King's Navy. The headquarters and main arsenal of the Office were in the White Tower of the Tower of London. The broad arrow mark has been used over the years by the Office and Board to signify at first objects purchased from the monarch's money and later to indicate government property. With the demise of the Board in 1855, the War Department and today's Ministry of Defence continued to use the mark. The arrow also appears in the Ordnance Survey logo.[5]

Early use of the broad arrow can be found on some objects recovered from the Tudor ship Mary Rose, which sank in 1545. Bronze sheaves for rigging blocks, spoked wheels for gun carriages, bowls and wooden tankards were found to bear this mark.[6] The broad arrow frequently appeared on military boxes and equipment such as canteens, bayonets and rifles, as well as the British prison uniform from the 1870s, and even earlier, that of transportees in British penal colonies such as Australia.[7] The broad arrow marks were also used by Commonwealth countries on their ordnance.

The origin and earliest use of the broad arrow symbol are unknown. It could be related to the actual arrow, longbows and bowmen being a key part of the English army in the Middle ages. Broad Arrow Tower, built by Henry III of England between 1238 and 1272, in the Tower of London is said to be named after the royal property mark.[8][9] Invention of the mark is frequently attributed to Henry Sydney, 1st Earl of Romney, who served as Master-General of the Ordnance from 1693 to 1702, since the pheon appears in the arms of his family, but it is known to have been in use earlier than this. There is also an unsubstantiated claim that a document dated 1330, issued by Richard de la Pole, the King's Butler, for the purchase of wine shows that in order to make sure that ownership could be readily established as King's property, he marked each item with an arrow from his own Coat of Arms.[10]

Similarly to hallmarks, it is currently a criminal offence to reproduce the broad arrow without authority. The Embezzlement of Public Stores Act 1698 in clause 41 makes it illegal to use the "broad arrow / King's mark" on any goods not for His Majesty's government's use."

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:54 am

I think it has previously been covered but it's good to recollect this sort of info in this thread. Thanks a lot for the detailed description, I never suspected to check Wiki for it.

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm

Thanks for sharing!

Regards,
Swindiana

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:38 am

The member Indiana Citroen overe here http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... 78#p561078 has a MKVI by M.H. & Co. dated 1941, I thought it was another interesting add to the list. I invited him over this thread but I thought it was safer to post the link to his thread myself, he has a very nice set of pictures too.

Indiana Citroen · Post by **Indiana Citroen** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:10 pm

Please feel free to use my pics in this thread...and if you want more detail please ask.
As shown it's in good condition and I can't wait to add a strap. It will be my "hero" piece

http://s460.photobucket.com/albums/qq32 ... 0VI%20Bag/

IC
(stuart)

I suppose it is a UK bag by the arrow too?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:19 pm

Indiana Citroen wrote:I suppose it is a UK bag by the arrow too?

I guess!
Thanks for posting over here too

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:30 pm

I was just giving this post another look see and I noted that the one bag noted with no info happens to

2) C. M. Co.
no new info or pictures on this one

of the type I own and recently been working on (trying to remove a stain) see the thread.... viewtopic.php?f=16&t=39858

Writtings on the inside. VII C.M.Co I.
year listed as 1941, other #'s written in marker (which is what bled through to cause the stain) 23325192. And what weird is under these #'s written upside down are the #'s 7382 . And on the outside of the bag down at the botom are the #'s 5138 (very lightly).
Bag discription as follows: Two snaps on cover in corners which are angled, two vents on bottom, lg disk on right side and little canvas pouch on left side. Where the starp connects is made of canvas and the rings are solid. Seems to have the same # of pouches. If you want detailed pics taken for above Erri, just let me know and I'll follow the way the other pic's were taken.

Croft

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:59 pm

Sorry if I notice this post only now! You may ask Swindiana if he's interested in the picture. I just showed mine (at least the ones which weren't listed) and invited others to do the same. I'm not personally collecting the information myself. It's merely for the sake of Indygear website

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:51 pm

Hey thanks, I'm going to be doing some down loading and I'll add these. Postem and let others see mine.
Take care.

Croft

MKVII & MKVI updates for Indygear.com

MKVII & MKVI updates for Indygear.com

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