RAF Irvin

Hugh de Latham · Post by **Hugh de Latham** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:04 pm

I am considering the purchase of an RAF Irvin jacket.

Aero, Eastman, and US Authentic offer these. Perhaps others do as well.

I am most particularly interested in the Aero because the company has a good reputation and the cost seems reasonable.

Does anybody have any experieice with Irvins from any of these companies - or from anyone else?

Also, a lot of these WWII jackets tend to be tight fitting - so that somebody who is size 42 would want to order a size 44, for example. Is that the case with any of these Irvins?

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:33 pm

I'd get the Aero unless Eastman makes a "contract" Irvin. I hear that their contract jackets are still quite good. Cheers

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:31 pm

I have delt with Aero now for 3 jacket purchases, and I can say that they
are just like Peter in their business practices.

They will make a jacket to your specs, no matter what they are. If you
want to add an inch to the front of a jacket, they will do it. If you want
to shorten the sleeves, they will do it. They will even add features from
other jackets that you like on the jacket you pick out, even though that
particular jacket does not come with those features.

Also, I can tell you that Aero and Eastman use the same
process for making their Redskin jackets, meaning the way they color
the hides. But Eastman charges almost TWICE THE PRICE for the same
thing! You can look at a current e-bay sale of an Eastman Redskin B-3
and I can show you my Aero Redskin B-3, and you could never tell the
difference in the hides.

Also, Eastman states on their website, that they will not take back a
"custom" made jacket. But Aero will. I also know this for a fact because
I have sent two of my jackets back for an exchange because I am a very
picky b*****d, and they never said a thing. They just asked what can
we do to fix it. Just like Peter does. He never questions a return. And
that is what keeps people coming back time and time again.

I can tell you that Aero is supposed to start offering lighter weight
shearling versions of their B-3 and Irvin soon. They did this last year
to see if there was a desire for a lighter weight version of these jackets
for people who do not live in really cold places.

I talked to Ken at Aero earlier this year about getting one of these lighter weight
jackets, but I was too late (I asked about them in May of this year) and
Ken said they would probably start making them again in October or
so because of the great response to them.

And by the way, when I say a lighter weight shearling, I mean that real
B-3's and Irvin's are made mostly of 1/2 inch deep shearling, and the B-6
Shearlings are mostly made of 1/4 to 3/8 inch thick shearling. Ken said Aero's
lighter weight B-3's and Irvin's will be made of the 1/4 to 3/8 inch thick shearling
instead of the normal 1/2 inch shearling. It makes for an easier moving
jacket, and one that breaks in faster too.

If you contact Aero Leather Company thru their website, you can talk
to Ken youself and find out about this. Also, if you look now, they have
some customer return shearling jackets that are on sale for almost half
off!!

If you do deside to go the Eastman route, and you live in the United States,
you will have to go thru their U.S. rep at History Preservation Association.
Eastman is in England, and they will not deal directly with any U.S.
customers, period. I already asked them about a B-2 Redskin shearling
cap, and they would not deal with me directly. They said go with their
U.S. rep.

Hope this helps some. Oh, and the Aero lighter weight shearling jackets
were priced about half what the normal jackets were. I am going to
get one of these lighter Irvins myself when Ken starts making them again.
They had originally sold for about 200 pounds sterling, which equates to
about $320 american dollars, round about. The normal Irvins are about
385 pounds sterling, which is about $616.00 american dollars.

Not a bad deal really...

Oh, and I have a Real McCoys B-6 that I bought that was about 2 inches too long
in the body for me when I got it from McCoys. But because I had them
make the sleeves shorter, McCoys would not take it back for an exchange
because, like Eastman, it was a "custom" order. When I asked them if
they could shorten it to the proper length, they said it could not be done.

Well, I asked Ken at Aero, and he said ABSOLUTELY it could be done.
Most things that are sewn together can be manipulated somewhat. So,
I sent Aero my McCoys jacket, and they took it all apart, and shortened
it by 2 inches. They had to do the leather, the zipper, the side zips,
pockets and everything. And guess what? If I did not tell you about this,
you would NEVER know it! It came out perfect! So, the people who actually
made the thing wouldn't even fix it for me. So I can say that I will
ALWAYS recommend Aero for any jacket purchase, just like I will
ALWAYS recommend Peter and Wested for any Indy jacker purchase.

Flathead

Hugh de Latham · Post by **Hugh de Latham** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:35 pm

My immediate email response from Aero has been encouraging.

HOwever, I note that Aero's "Battle of Britain" spec Irvins are half pannel while its full-panel Irvins are characterized as "pre-World War Two."

I have heard elsewhere that the actual Battle of Britain Irvins were full panel and that they began to have multiple panels only later. I also understand that the fewer the panels - the better.

Where can I find out how many panels were actually used by "the few"?

Hugh de Latham · Post by **Hugh de Latham** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 8:47 pm

Here are a couple of links providing information about what Battle of Britain pilots wore:

http://www.apejoe.com/Aviation/British_ ... ccess.html

What did Pilots wear? As well as the familiar blue-grey uniform of the Royal Air Force, during the Battle of Britain period in 1940, a pilot's clothing consisted of:

Fleecy-lined leather boots
Leather gauntlets, a pair of silk gloves and a pair of chamois leather gloves.

Irvin flying suit with fleecy-lined leather jacket
Leather helmet and goggles
'Mae West' life jacket with its kapok stuffing and halter-like collar.

Parachute pack (on which the pilot sat).

The aircraft's seat was hollowed to take the parachute pack, which had a layer of foam rubber on it for comfort. Aircraft had no heating at all - so it was important for their clothing to be warm.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/education/lifeinw ... ight13.htm

I wrestled with myself for a few minutes and then jumped out of bed and put on my flying kit quickly. Irvin trousers over my pyjamas, sweater, flying boots, scarf, Irvin jacket

http://www.geocities.com/marcill/page7.html[/img][/code]

Hugh de Latham · Post by **Hugh de Latham** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:23 am

On my latest communication fromAero, they state:

The shearling we have for the Irvin is very good. We do have a lighter
weight shearling but this is not really suitable for the Irvin.

I take this to mean that the lighter weight Irvins will not be offered.

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:12 pm

I figured something like that might happen. And just when I wanted
to get one of the lighterweight jackets too.

I do know that Ken from Aero said last year that they may
be offering the lighterweight shearlings this year if the hides
were as nice as the ones he had last year.

I guess the hides are not too good this year. They may still
get more in a few months.

When I ordered my Redskin B-3, they didn't have enough
hides to make my jacket, as it was one of the last ones they
were going to make back in February.

So, I had to wait about two months before they got new hides
in. But I really didn't care, as it was now into springtime,
and I really couldn't wear the jacket anyway.

You can always try back in a month or so. Things change.

Flathead

Hugh de Latham · Post by **Hugh de Latham** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 10:48 am

Here is some more detailed information from Aero about their four types of Irvins:

The very first Irvin's made in 1931/32 had no tape on the long back seam on the sleeve, exactly like a USAAF type B-6. They also had a strap and buckle attachment under the collar with the buckle having a prong and the strap having punched holes without eyelets. There were no horizontal seams on the jacket. The Sheepskin had much shorter fleece than the later jackets. We have what is possibly the earliest surviving example in our archives

The second model, made during the 1930's and all those following, used the standard basic well known spec the only differences being the amount of panels. The second jacket also had no horizontal seams but had the better known fully taped seam rings under collar, etc.

The third model, sometimes called the "Battle of Britain" (as these began production around 1940) usually had a certain amount of horizontal seams usually at least splitting the 2 piece back into 4 panels, sometimes 6, and each front panel split in 2.

The (fourth) late WWII model was multi panelled as every bit of sheepskin was being put to use. Sometimes a sleeve could be made up in as many as 10-12 pieces. Ditto the other panels. The only thing I have never seen was a multi panelled Irvin where the opposite panel configuration did not match perfectly other than on Centrally Heated Irvins.

A few Irvin's were still being made up to around 1950 before production was discontinued.

What I get from this is that, while perhaps I might not get to feel like a Spitfire pilot if wearing a pre-WWII jacket, I most certainly could feel llike z Hurricane pilot.

Hugh de Latham · Post by **Hugh de Latham** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:02 am

In order to prevent this thread from becoming a long advretisment for Aero, here are the two blurbs from Eastman about its two Irvins:

The RAF 1940 Pattern Sheepskin Flying Jacket has been added to our range due to popular demand. Although very similar to the 1942 Pattern jacket that we already produce, the 1940 Pattern has some subtle, but significant differances.

It may well be asked also, what is an RAF jacket doing in the Pearl Harbor Collection department? This is because they were supplied to the movie, for the character Rafe McCawley, who wears one while flying in early wartime Britain. It was originally produced purely for the film, but after seeing how well they turned out, and in addition to previous requests for the style, we thought it fitting to make available to our customers, all those jacket types that appear in the film.

The 1940 Pattern jacket differs mostly from the later '42 Pattern, in its larger-panel, fewer-seam construction. As you can see from the images, there are no are no chest-line seams to the front or back, nor are there any cross-seams in the sleeves. This, as they also found out during the war, is a much more expensive way to make the jacket - The larger panels making conservative use of the sheepskin pelts very difficult. The '40 Patt jacket uses around 30% more material than the '42 Patt.

Other differances include: Paler shade sheepskin colour, higher quality aniline leather for the seam-tape trimming, and one-piece, pull-through zip thongs.

Never before reproduced to this degree of quality, and authenticity, our 1940 Pattern, Battle of Britain flying jacket will now undoubtedly satisfy all those who have been looking for the quintessential RAF jacket.

Originally designed by the parachute pioneer Leslie Leroy Irvin, the R.A.F. sheepskin flying jacket was the only sheepskin flying jacket to be issued to R.A.F. aircrews.

From experience learned in the First World War, the necessity for some form of garment with a high degree of insulation became evident. From this need finally emerged the design commonly known as the 'Irvin'. The first examples went into production in 1931.

Approved by the Air Ministry its production was contracted out to many manufacturers and not solely to the Irvin Airchute Company, as commonly believed. The pre-war jackets were manufactured with a somewhat extravagant use of the sheepskin material. They had undivided one-piece body panels requiring only the minimum of necessary seams. Although this facilitated easier assembly, it consumed much greater quantities of material.

With the coming of war and the demand for greater quantities of jackets, a more economic method of manufacture had to be devised. It was decided that the earlier pattern should be divided into smaller panels, thus saving material, but which resulted in the consequential increase in the number of seams. However, as the war escalated, demand further increased putting manufacturers under increasing pressure to produce the garment even more economically. So, the already divided body panels, were further sub-divided into even more panels.This, together with newly recruited unskilled labour, achieved the aim but to the detriment of the quality of the garment.

Whilst these measures served the need for wartime economics, they do not detract from the present day value of these highly sought after flying jackets. Many have now found their way into the memorabilia collections of wartime historians and enthusiasts, for no other garment depicts more readily the gallantry and selflessness of the flyers who wore them - the 'R.A.F. Sheepskin Flying Jacket'.

More than 3 years of painstaking research, have gone into developing this garment, which is a reproduction typical of the 1941/42 period. The over-riding prerequisites of quality and authenticity have been strictly adhered to throughout. Presenting the most avid enthusiast with a jacket of unparalleled accuracy.

Authentic specification includes:
# Carefully selected sheepskin, tanned and finished to the correct colour,depth and character specification.
# Cotton taped, brass zips, specially made to wartime design.
# The main zip is complete with the slider box 'cup' - a unique feature found only on originals and 'Eastmans'!
# Hand stitched, printed Linen label. Plus more!

This is the definitive reproduction of the RAF jacket ... take a flight into Royal Air Force history with this unmistakable classic!

Available in sizes: 34 - 48.

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 12:19 pm

Now you just have to make up your mind and deside either to
spend $600 american dollars, or over $1200 american dollars
for the same basic jacket, but from two different vendors.

You can always get the Aero first, to your specs, and if you don't
like it, after you paid $600 dollars for it, you can send it back for
a full refund.

Then you can try the Eastman, at $1200 dollars, again
made to your specs, but you will have to keep that one as
they will not let you return it after its been altered to fit you.

Its really not a hard choice in my opinion. By you doing it in
that order it will let you to see the Aero in "real life" and still
be able to get your money back if your not satisfied. Do it
the other way around, and your stuck with a $1200 jacket that
you might not like.

Flathead

Hugh de Latham · Post by **Hugh de Latham** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 12:56 pm

In addition to Aero, Eastman, and U S Authentic, the following vendors also offer Irvins:

Cirrus:

http://www.flyingjacket.com/fjacket.htm

Aviation Leathercraft:

http://www.flying-jacket.com/jak1.asp

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 2:56 pm

For the price those last two vendors are offering their un-authentic
styled jackets, you could get one that was made like the real
thing from Aero. Those other two vendors jackets are both
priced the same as the Aero, but have slash pockets, which
a true Irvin never had. Real Irvins had NO pockets.

Plus, the zippers those others use are not the proper type for
those jackets. I know my B-3 from Aero uses real Talon zippers,
not the YKK type in use on most jackets made today.

Remember, just like the Indy gearheads, the flight jacket gear
heads really frown upon those other vendors "modernizing"
the true style of the originals.

Flathead

Hugh de Latham · Post by **Hugh de Latham** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 8:47 pm

Of course, the think to wear with an Irvin is a RAF Rollneck sweater. Those of you familiar with Hogan's Heroes will recognize this sweater as the character, Newkirk's.

Both Eastman and Aero offer versions.

Aero:

Eastman:

Hugh de Latham · Post by **Hugh de Latham** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 6:09 pm

Here is a site that offers RAF gear:

http://stby.com/airdigger/repro.htm

Items offered include:

Type D Flying Gloves
RAF Mk VIII Goggles.
Replacement Lenses
RAF KD Trousers
OR-Pattern KD Jacket
RAF Battledress Uniform
RAF NCO/OR Sidecap
RAF Other Ranks Service Dress Uniforms
Black Aircrew Sweater
Various badges

Note that this site offers an Irvin with split panels, which it identifies as "mid-war multi-panel version."

Hugh de Latham · Post by **Hugh de Latham** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 6:25 pm

Here are some authentic WWII era Irvins. These are not reproductions but rather actual jackets worn by RAF pilots and crew members.

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 6:56 am

The Irvin jacket on the website you gave is actually sold by
a guy named Jerry at What Price Glory. He is a great guy!
He is a retired Army guy, and he has lots and lots of repro
army stuff, Airforce stuff, and a whole section on British army
and airforce items.

His website is: whatpriceglory.com

His site is very up to date, and if you ask him any questions,
he gets back to you very quickly.

I do know that the Irvins he offers run kinda on the small side.
I normally wear a size 42/44 jacket, and I own a size 44 Aero
B-3, which is ever so slightly on the big side for me. I asked
Jerry about his Irvin, and he only had up to a size 46 at that time
(Which was about 3 weeks ago, and his website says this now
too) and he said it would not really fit a size 44 person! He is
very honest about sizes and stuff.

Also, his jackets are made in Pakastan usually, which he amits
to on his site, and thats why his prices are lower by more than
half over other places.

I have heard nice things about his Irvins from reading army and
airforce forums like this Indy forum. I have never heard a bad
thing about Jerry or his place.

Just do a search for What Price Glory on your browser, and you
will come up with all kinds of people that have his stuff. He also
has a few re-enactment forums links on his site as well.

Flathead

Hugh de Latham · Post by **Hugh de Latham** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:54 pm

My Irvin from Aero has arrived.

It is a one-panel, pre-WWII type.

I chose this because:
a) obviously this was the type the RAF preferred - other types only being adopted due to circumstances.
b) Eastman says the one panel type was used during the Battle of Britain.
c) Even if Aero is right that the split panel type was adopted "about 1940," there still would have been many one panel types still in use during the Battle of Britain.

In any event, I will not hesitate to tell the girls that this was the jacket that Spitfire pilots wore.

In any event, this is a fabulous jacket. The red wool ining ihas a warm glow. The cut is sleek. I feel like a fighter pilot.

I really don't know how this would cmpare to a B-3 or a multi-panel Irvin. But this is a beaut.

BTW: assuming that this would take the same type of Pecards as a B-3, what type should be used to treat it?

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:34 pm

Congrats on the Irvin!! Nice choice!!

I would use the Pecards lotion. Its the one that some call the "Motorcycle
lotion".

Its the one in bottle that is an off white color that is about as thick as
hand creame. It is specifically made for all types of smooth leather and
it goes on really easy, and comes off really easy. Don't use the regular
Pecards in the tub, or the "jell" that comes in the black jar. The "jell"
is just the plain Pecards without the wax. The "jell" has the same look
and feel as vasoline, so you will know it when you see it.

You should also ask either Michael or Ken at Aero about what to put on
it as well.

When I bought my B-3 at the begining of this year, I asked Ken what I
should use on it. He actually said not to use anything on it until it starts
to break in. And that the finish, which is shiny at first, and very heavy,
will start to wear in, and the jacket will begin to be able to accept the
lotion.

He said that because of the original finish on jackets like your Irvin and
the B-3's and B-6's, most lotions will just sit on the surface of the jacket
because of the finishing process they go thru.

He told me to wait until I started to see some of the nice creases and
folds before applying anything to it. So I would think your Irvin is the
same. If it can't accept any protection yet, why waist it?

But ask the guys at Aero. They will tell you the proper way to break
in the jacket.

Flathead

Hugh de Latham · Post by **Hugh de Latham** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 11:03 am

For in depth discussion of RAF gear, goto te WW2 RAF Colklectors/Reenactors Forum:

It's hoped that this site will allow a common meeting environment to discus topics relevant to the WW2-era British/Commonwealth Air Forces, with particular emphasis on collecting issues and the challenges facing Living History/Reenactment units.

.

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/180748?it=6&achk=1