First part of the Whip Manifesto Video is up entitled Function over Form. I do understand I'm painting with some pretty broad strokes and that we all have a story "proving" I'm wrong, but that's not the point of my video. When people ask the same question over and over and over, there is a disconnect in the knowledge base. So I thought I'd add my $0.03. Take it or leave it, but it's what I believe. Hope it helps!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0SViDD1dZI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V3GWWSAofQ
Flame Suit On
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hollywood1340
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PyramidBlaster
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You have some valid points, and to many respects they're very true: In fact, many of the master whip-throwers I know show a bit of disdain over the short-handled 'Morgan' style whip which we Gearheads tend to fancy.
While it's true that a longer-handled whip gives finer control as well as a substantial mechanical advantage over the shorter-handled variety, there's one point you're missing, which follows the function-over-form mentality: The 'Indy' whip is meant to be worn. It's designed to be compact enough to coiled and worn on a belt so as to be unobtrusive, yet ready at a moment's notice. As for it not being the 'ideal' configuration, for what activity is the statement made? If we're talking circus target-cutting, sure. I'll give you that. But for wear out into the field, it excels. And at that, it is the ideal configuration.
I'm a person who doesn't really believe in absolutes. To my mind, if you're really good with something, you're totally comfortable with it, and it suits your purposes, then one needn't look at whether or not it's 'perfect'...It simply is what it is.
What now...'Plait Nazis', along with 'Stitch Nazis'? Sheesh....Can't we all just get along?
While it's true that a longer-handled whip gives finer control as well as a substantial mechanical advantage over the shorter-handled variety, there's one point you're missing, which follows the function-over-form mentality: The 'Indy' whip is meant to be worn. It's designed to be compact enough to coiled and worn on a belt so as to be unobtrusive, yet ready at a moment's notice. As for it not being the 'ideal' configuration, for what activity is the statement made? If we're talking circus target-cutting, sure. I'll give you that. But for wear out into the field, it excels. And at that, it is the ideal configuration.
I'm a person who doesn't really believe in absolutes. To my mind, if you're really good with something, you're totally comfortable with it, and it suits your purposes, then one needn't look at whether or not it's 'perfect'...It simply is what it is.
What now...'Plait Nazis', along with 'Stitch Nazis'? Sheesh....Can't we all just get along?
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hollywood1340
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Just make sure their uniforms are SA!
Here's a question, whats the most often carried and used whip? I would guess the Australian stock whip, still in use today. And that's no eight inch handle! Of course in the end I don't think any real "Adventurer" carried a bullwhip with them and certainly not one of very late 20th century construction. In the end it's what YOU want, but looking to a movie character for a good tool isn't always the best route to take depending on what you want that tool to do.
Here's a question, whats the most often carried and used whip? I would guess the Australian stock whip, still in use today. And that's no eight inch handle! Of course in the end I don't think any real "Adventurer" carried a bullwhip with them and certainly not one of very late 20th century construction. In the end it's what YOU want, but looking to a movie character for a good tool isn't always the best route to take depending on what you want that tool to do.
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PyramidBlaster
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Yes, but the Australian Stockwhip, as well as our local Florida Stockwhip, is not designed to be carried on the belt, nor used by a pedestrian-They are both primarily designed for use while on horseback.
And while I, too, would agree that basing one's opinions solely on the 'use' of an item by a movie character is foolhardy, I myself have used many, many whips over the span of over twenty years---and yes, carried a few on my belt on extended hikes---My experience is that there's some times I like a longer-handled whip, and there's times that I don't. And the times when I don't are not because 'a movie character did it that way', but because it was appropriate for the task.
All I'm saying is, yes...Longer handled whips are generally favored for 'real' work...But short-handled whips have their place, too, and one is not 'wrong' simply because they prefer one or the other... It comes down to what you're comfortable with. You're just not going to convince me I'm wrong for carrying an 8"-handled 10' (or 12') whip on my belt...My years of experience doing such tell me otherwise.
I see the point you're trying to make, and to some respects it's valid---for most tasks, a longer handle is more efficient---But to say that shorter handles are inferior is, well, somewhat misleading. Inferior for precise target work? You bet. For compact handiness in the field? I'd have to say no.
So, for all those just getting into whips (pretty much all of them now due to seeing it on the big screen), there is a whole world out there. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' whip...But there are whips more suited to one purpose or other. So try them all, find one that suits you.
A whip is simply a tool like anything else. Proper tool for the proper job. Of course, the preference of the mechanic wielding this particular tool is of more consequence...
And while I, too, would agree that basing one's opinions solely on the 'use' of an item by a movie character is foolhardy, I myself have used many, many whips over the span of over twenty years---and yes, carried a few on my belt on extended hikes---My experience is that there's some times I like a longer-handled whip, and there's times that I don't. And the times when I don't are not because 'a movie character did it that way', but because it was appropriate for the task.
All I'm saying is, yes...Longer handled whips are generally favored for 'real' work...But short-handled whips have their place, too, and one is not 'wrong' simply because they prefer one or the other... It comes down to what you're comfortable with. You're just not going to convince me I'm wrong for carrying an 8"-handled 10' (or 12') whip on my belt...My years of experience doing such tell me otherwise.
I see the point you're trying to make, and to some respects it's valid---for most tasks, a longer handle is more efficient---But to say that shorter handles are inferior is, well, somewhat misleading. Inferior for precise target work? You bet. For compact handiness in the field? I'd have to say no.
So, for all those just getting into whips (pretty much all of them now due to seeing it on the big screen), there is a whole world out there. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' whip...But there are whips more suited to one purpose or other. So try them all, find one that suits you.
A whip is simply a tool like anything else. Proper tool for the proper job. Of course, the preference of the mechanic wielding this particular tool is of more consequence...
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hollywood1340
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Again, note the "Years of experience" bit. The purpose is not to those with years of experience, it's to those starting out. And at that point IMO there may not be a right or wrong, but there is a better. Sure you can start a new driver with a 720hp Shelby Super Snake, but there are better cars to start with. I'm looking to teach someone to use a whip, looking for someone who want's to do 'real' work with it. Even as a tool the bullwhip isn't designed to necessarily be hung on the belt. If it's compact you want, get a snake whip, that's what they are designed for. I"m not trying to invalidates your experience, we all have different ones, but what I will say is for someone who is starting out using a whip for non Indy Gear use, the whip I've described I belive is a better start then a shorter handled whip. Does that mean you can't or should not start with one? Not at all. But if you look at those who teach whip, Alex Green, Anthony Delongis, Gery Deer, they all seem to prefer a longer handle when teaching*, and from what I've heard and read for the very reasons I have stated and some more. And that simply can' be denied. And that is my answer to the question "What whip should I start with?".
*Yes I know Anthony trained Harrison with a DM 450 series. But this has been an excellent conversation and I hope it can continue
*Yes I know Anthony trained Harrison with a DM 450 series. But this has been an excellent conversation and I hope it can continue
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Bernardodc
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hollywood1340
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The second part is to be found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNHh7sRjkes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNHh7sRjkes
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PyramidBlaster
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I didn't see where that point was abundantly clear.
Even in that context, I'm not so sure it's black or white, either.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's easier to learn on a short handle than a long--if it's just cracking a whip that you want to do. The longer handle will dictate that a whip is easier to crack versus a shorter-handled model of the same build quality...But...
What sort of whip are you going to be using? A short or long handle, predominantly? I can imagine a school of thought that professes a student should learn on what they're going to use---Not always the 'easiest' way, but who's to say the easiest way is necessarily the best? Sometimes it's just not the case. I can think of many, many things I wouldn't have learned about whips until much later, simply because I learned on a 12' with an 8" handle, as opposed to a 6' or 8'...Or on a stockwhip of some kind.
I'm not condoning in any way trying to learn from scratch on a 12' of any kind...In fact it was particularly difficult. But it illustrates a point.
I didn't have any sort of resource to draw upon, and cost was a factor...Bear in mind that many who are just starting out can only afford one whip, if even just the one...And if they're into IndyGear, that makes the choice even the more limiting. Not many have the luxury of buying a stable of whips to suit every purpose...But must settle with one that will do multiple jobs.
I guess when it comes down to it...All I can say is that we have two different takes on the same subject. And anyone who is getting into whips for the first time should study up on the subject and form their own ideas before embarking on the endeavor...Instead of just taking something at face value. Whether it be something they saw in a movie...Or someone's opinion.
As in life, there's always more than one way to skin a cat...Just do the research before you jump in.
Even in that context, I'm not so sure it's black or white, either.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's easier to learn on a short handle than a long--if it's just cracking a whip that you want to do. The longer handle will dictate that a whip is easier to crack versus a shorter-handled model of the same build quality...But...
What sort of whip are you going to be using? A short or long handle, predominantly? I can imagine a school of thought that professes a student should learn on what they're going to use---Not always the 'easiest' way, but who's to say the easiest way is necessarily the best? Sometimes it's just not the case. I can think of many, many things I wouldn't have learned about whips until much later, simply because I learned on a 12' with an 8" handle, as opposed to a 6' or 8'...Or on a stockwhip of some kind.
I'm not condoning in any way trying to learn from scratch on a 12' of any kind...In fact it was particularly difficult. But it illustrates a point.
I didn't have any sort of resource to draw upon, and cost was a factor...Bear in mind that many who are just starting out can only afford one whip, if even just the one...And if they're into IndyGear, that makes the choice even the more limiting. Not many have the luxury of buying a stable of whips to suit every purpose...But must settle with one that will do multiple jobs.
I guess when it comes down to it...All I can say is that we have two different takes on the same subject. And anyone who is getting into whips for the first time should study up on the subject and form their own ideas before embarking on the endeavor...Instead of just taking something at face value. Whether it be something they saw in a movie...Or someone's opinion.
As in life, there's always more than one way to skin a cat...Just do the research before you jump in.
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hollywood1340
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rjallen70
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At the end of the day...an Indy fan should get a whip with an 8" handle.
For Cowhunters the handle length matters even less. If it flys true and cracks you can drive the herd. In fact, the cow whip is the traditional whip here in FL, but there are now many short handled whips in use here as well, probably due the mobility of people and there ability to relocate. My own are in use on ranches in FL, AL, and GA.
Your style of whips are spawned from an agricultural society that has transcended into an age where the tool has become a toy, or a form of entertainment. I had an old former cowhunter call one of my 6 ft 12 plt 12" handle whips "cute". He purchased a heavy as heck 10 ft 16 plt and loved it.
6-8 plait latigo whips were the norm...many of them quite crude. Even the Aussie's generally use 4 plait redhide whips for rugged real work.
So if your goal is to entertain and "perform" for people, a skinny 10-12" handle whip is perfect. If you are a backyard cracker, or a REAL cowboy, get what you like, snake, stock, or Bull it's all the same in the end.
That being said I agree with you in that that whip is best for what you are doing with it...but it is relative. Most people have no delusions of grandeur, and probably don't want to be the next DeLongis, Winrich, or Camp they just want to have some fun about the yard.
Ron
My 3 cents. There are no absolutes.
For Cowhunters the handle length matters even less. If it flys true and cracks you can drive the herd. In fact, the cow whip is the traditional whip here in FL, but there are now many short handled whips in use here as well, probably due the mobility of people and there ability to relocate. My own are in use on ranches in FL, AL, and GA.
Your style of whips are spawned from an agricultural society that has transcended into an age where the tool has become a toy, or a form of entertainment. I had an old former cowhunter call one of my 6 ft 12 plt 12" handle whips "cute". He purchased a heavy as heck 10 ft 16 plt and loved it.
6-8 plait latigo whips were the norm...many of them quite crude. Even the Aussie's generally use 4 plait redhide whips for rugged real work.
So if your goal is to entertain and "perform" for people, a skinny 10-12" handle whip is perfect. If you are a backyard cracker, or a REAL cowboy, get what you like, snake, stock, or Bull it's all the same in the end.
That being said I agree with you in that that whip is best for what you are doing with it...but it is relative. Most people have no delusions of grandeur, and probably don't want to be the next DeLongis, Winrich, or Camp they just want to have some fun about the yard.
Ron
My 3 cents. There are no absolutes.
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gsolideogloria
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I am pretty new to whipcracking so I'm not sure that my opinion is even worth two cents - but - after quite a bit of reading/reasearch I purchased a 6-foot, 12-plait with a 10-inch-handle from Louie Foxx. I wanted one to work toward doing greater multiple cracks. This is the whip he recommended, agreeing with the research I had previously done (much of it here on indygear). I really was not all that concerned with screen accuracy, I wanted a whip for regular use (but I do like that it looks similar to the one used on screen).
Thanks for the great comments guys. I am enjoying learning from experienced whip-crackers like you.
Happy cracking,
Ryan
Thanks for the great comments guys. I am enjoying learning from experienced whip-crackers like you.
Happy cracking,
Ryan
My friends (who arnt into whips..) ask me why i have so many differnet whips....
My answer?
Same reason Golfers have more than one club....
Different tools for different Jobs...
you mentioned the Jacka whip whip with the longer transition, but they do not exactly handle like a long handled bullwhip...
they are.....well... they are just totally different due to their larger diameter, flexing transition, light handle/heavy thong balance etc... so to say that Terry made a long handled whip in disguise is not really accurate either....
My answer?
Same reason Golfers have more than one club....
Different tools for different Jobs...
you mentioned the Jacka whip whip with the longer transition, but they do not exactly handle like a long handled bullwhip...
they are.....well... they are just totally different due to their larger diameter, flexing transition, light handle/heavy thong balance etc... so to say that Terry made a long handled whip in disguise is not really accurate either....
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hollywood1340
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True, but only because the handles were 8 inches long on the KOTCS whips. The principle is leverage no matter the whip. 'The direction I received for the style of the bullwhips was "The same as your 10 inch handled whips but with the handle measuring 5 inches between the turks heads and about a one third larger main turks head." I sent two eight ft. bullwhips and the rest were ten ft.long. I wasn't happy to lose the leverage that a 10 inch handle gave me but I made the binding longer and I stiffened the transition at the end of the handle by adding a short tighter bound section and that went a long way in helping to retain the action.
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Indiana County Jr.
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My answer?
Same reason Golfers have more than one club....
Different tools for different Jobs...
I couldn't agree more David, you nailed it,
No one whip will do it all. At the end of the day, it all boils down to what you are happy with. I enjoy all my whips and would really have a hard time saying which one i would keep if i had to own just one. Many different personalites with those little gems.
Crack On!
Allen
Yes, it's mostly a case of whatever you enjoy best. And if you can afford lots of different types, then get lots of different kinds. If I had just one whip it would be the Morgan style 8" handle bullwhip, only because I enjoy cracking this type the best. I'm not cracking it for a job anymore though. One good thing about the Indy whip is that it is basically as compact as a snakewhip but with lots more leverage in the handle.
Speaking of whips and a job, when I did use a whip for work, as a jackaroo, I used a stockwhip every day. They are great from horseback because they are a breeze to use. Oftentimes just a flick of the forearm and wrist. They are also very easy to carry when riding. The sharp bend at the keeper, combined with the thin thong, makes them very easy to hold both the whip and the reins. In popular imagery they are often shown slung over one shoulder but this isn't often done in real life, as the handle falls off your shoulder too easily if the horse moves suddenly (as many 'rough' bush horses are prone to do). The long handle also makes it very easy to swing the thong out away from the flank of the horse.
Redhide or latigo (sometimes whitehide, or greenhide - untanned cowhide) 4 plait, or much less commonly 6 plait, is the usual industry standard for a work stockwhip in Australia, with about a 7 foot thong on average. I used to use an 8'. Roo hide stockwhips, often 8 or 12 plait, are also used but being expensive are less common. The handle is most often cane in Australia as it is less dangerous if you fall on the handle (it doesn't split when it breaks, reducing the chance of being impaled by a sharp splinter).
I enjoy a short handle bullwhip because I have to use more of my body to crack it, which I like. With a stockwhip it is mostly a case of a mere flick of the elbow - too easy I reckon, but then I'm not into flash Aussie multiple cracking. If I was, I'd use a stockwhip for sure.
Speaking of whips and a job, when I did use a whip for work, as a jackaroo, I used a stockwhip every day. They are great from horseback because they are a breeze to use. Oftentimes just a flick of the forearm and wrist. They are also very easy to carry when riding. The sharp bend at the keeper, combined with the thin thong, makes them very easy to hold both the whip and the reins. In popular imagery they are often shown slung over one shoulder but this isn't often done in real life, as the handle falls off your shoulder too easily if the horse moves suddenly (as many 'rough' bush horses are prone to do). The long handle also makes it very easy to swing the thong out away from the flank of the horse.
Redhide or latigo (sometimes whitehide, or greenhide - untanned cowhide) 4 plait, or much less commonly 6 plait, is the usual industry standard for a work stockwhip in Australia, with about a 7 foot thong on average. I used to use an 8'. Roo hide stockwhips, often 8 or 12 plait, are also used but being expensive are less common. The handle is most often cane in Australia as it is less dangerous if you fall on the handle (it doesn't split when it breaks, reducing the chance of being impaled by a sharp splinter).
I enjoy a short handle bullwhip because I have to use more of my body to crack it, which I like. With a stockwhip it is mostly a case of a mere flick of the elbow - too easy I reckon, but then I'm not into flash Aussie multiple cracking. If I was, I'd use a stockwhip for sure.
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midwestwhips
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Re: Flame Suit On
Hi Hollywood,
Interesting videos, and a good discussion. Each whip has its' purpose, it just depends on what the person is wanting to use it for. The whips commonly available nowadays are available for a reason, they fit the most popular uses. Lately I've been seeing more and more Long handled bullwhips, and Stockwhips being used in the U.S., and less long Blacksnake whips, which is the sign of the times. The Blacksnakes were developed for cattlemen to be able to easily fit into their saddle bags, but since traditional cattlemen are fewer and fewer, there becomes fewer and fewer requests for Blacksnakes...
By the way, I just thought that I would mention that the pair of 4ft whips that Karen Quest has are not made by Morgan. I don't think he has ever offered any 4 foot bullwhips. The whips are actually Lil' Indys that I made for Western Stage Props. John Leonetti posted a pic of them on his photo gallery, and mentioned them in this post:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34316
Paul Nolan
www.midwestwhips.com
Interesting videos, and a good discussion. Each whip has its' purpose, it just depends on what the person is wanting to use it for. The whips commonly available nowadays are available for a reason, they fit the most popular uses. Lately I've been seeing more and more Long handled bullwhips, and Stockwhips being used in the U.S., and less long Blacksnake whips, which is the sign of the times. The Blacksnakes were developed for cattlemen to be able to easily fit into their saddle bags, but since traditional cattlemen are fewer and fewer, there becomes fewer and fewer requests for Blacksnakes...
By the way, I just thought that I would mention that the pair of 4ft whips that Karen Quest has are not made by Morgan. I don't think he has ever offered any 4 foot bullwhips. The whips are actually Lil' Indys that I made for Western Stage Props. John Leonetti posted a pic of them on his photo gallery, and mentioned them in this post:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34316
Regards,Lion Tamer wrote:Last weekend I attended the 3rd Annual Wild West Gathering in California. I snapped a few photos, cracked a few whips, and had the chance to meet and swap stories with the attendees.
Many people brought their own whips, and I photographed a few including a vintage Wheatley, a variety of Jackas, and a set of Paul Nolan "Little Indys."
You can check out the photos here:
Whip Cracking Galleries
John
Paul Nolan
www.midwestwhips.com
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hollywood1340
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Re: Flame Suit On
Thanks for the info Paul, I'll add a note on the current video and when I re-shoot the video I'll make sure to correct that. And again, thank you all for your input!
Re: Flame Suit On
The short handled bullwhip was not invented by Morgan, nor was it invented for Indiana Jones. The bullwhip has a long tradition in the States as a working whip in its own right.
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hollywood1340
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Re: Flame Suit On
True, but it was Morgan who combined the attributes of the American short handled working with with the finer artistry of the Australian tradition to make the whip we all know and love as the Morgan 450 series. And this is the whip I'm talking about, so it was a Morgan creation.