Browning and FN?

Alkali Jones · Post by **Alkali Jones** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:33 pm

Hey All,

As best as I can tell from my research, the F.N. had a very small rear sight, just like the ones pictured higher up, or they had the tangent rear sight. But Indy doesn't have a tangent sight. Nor does he have the tiny F.N. sight. Nor does he have the "half moon" front sight. The take down "thumb print", the lanyard ring, and the plastic grips were used by every manufacturer at one time or another. It's that rear sight that tells us "Inglis".

Dan S

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:53 am

You guys are WAY too high tech. for me. All I know is I love the look of the high power and when I picked one up years ago, it was as cool as I always thought it would be. Plus, it shoots like a dream.

191145 · Post by **191145** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:39 am

There's no doubt the Hi-Power is a classic design and sweet shooter. Even the FEG clone (PJK-9HP) is great. I had wanted an Inglis for a long time, and after the revelations in this thread I found a MK 1 No. 2 and bought it. I should get it this week and will post. This is the model with the exact features of the Raven bar Hi-Power. Although it is a total anachronism in ROTLA and could not have existed then, it's still a 'real' Hi-Power made under FN license to John Inglis and was used in WWII.

191145 · Post by **191145** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:21 pm

Whoops, make that a 'No. 2 MK 1'. I'm really liking this Inglis HP. For all who may not know, the Inglis has the old original HP-style 'internal' extractor (like a 1911). Post-war Brownings have the 'external' extractor (that thin bar behind the ejection port on the slide). This one is too nice to belong to Dr. Henry Jones Jr., and I'm not going to 'distress' it. In this pic you can see that it has the wrong grips - these all have black composite grips. These are very nice original Browning grips that are cut for the lanyard loop fitting. I actually like these grips on it so I'll probably just leave them there. The other side of the slide has the 'crescent' cut for take down.

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RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:38 pm

Wow, great purchase! You're right, it's TOO nice to monkey with. Congratulations!

On another thought, too bad no one makes repro No. 2 Mk. 1 slides. Stick that on one of the Hungarian HPs and we'd be in business for a very close enough Indy HP.

RaiderZee

191145 · Post by **191145** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:06 am

Just a note on the Hungarians; FEG has been out of the gun business for several years now. This has eliminated a source for inexpensive new HP clones. You can still find them, sometimes new-in-box, but sooner or later they're going to start appreciating in value. A good alternative is the FM HP, originally made under FN license. They recently made a 'Classic' model that looks like the post-war HP except the slide doesn't narrow near the muzzle - stays straight like a 1911. There are still plenty of used FEG PJK-9HPs out there, and there may even be an Inglis slide floating around from time to time. A quick 'spray-n-bake' job with matte black Gun Kote and you'd be in business.

Alkali Jones · Post by **Alkali Jones** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:07 am

Hey 191145,

Wow! That's B-E-A-utifull. Can you show a photo of the other side? Can you show a picture of the sights from the shooter's point of view? I always wondered how the rear sight looked from behind. How's it shoot?

I already did the ring hammer and I bought a lanyard ring for my 1988 Hi Power. I found a guy in England who is helping me to get a "thumbprint" put on the slide. I'll refinish in black Parkerizing, change the sights to night sights, and voila, an Indy gun, sort of.

191145 · Post by **191145** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:25 pm

I'll put up some detailed pics soon, as I'm waiting for some correct black grips.

191145 · Post by **191145** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:12 am

Okay, here's the corrected pistol (grips and magazines) , but with the WWII repro holster - the new holster without mag pocket isn't in yet. I'm keeping this holster too, as functionally it's a great HP holster.

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:33 pm

That's a sweet rig, 1911! I had that same holster for my Hi-power to carry in the field in Nevada. I sent it to Our Bandit Leather, a (bad) holster 'maker' to copy with a suede lining in it. All he did was steal it from me along with $100.00 of my money! There's one out there that is a dark brown I've been meaning to get.

TR

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:35 pm

What can you say? Except for the serial #, that IS Indy's HP. Hard to get more SA! Congratulations!

RaiderZee

191145 · Post by **191145** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:43 pm

Thanks. Tell you what, this rig fully loaded with 27 rounds (13+13+1) weighs a LOT more than the loaded revolver - another reason why IJ probably would not have bothered with carrying it plus the revolver (IMO). Even without the extra mag it's heavier.

Alkali Jones · Post by **Alkali Jones** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:44 pm

WOW! I want one. ;-)

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:44 am

191145 wrote:Thanks. Tell you what, this rig fully loaded with 27 rounds (13+13+1) weighs a LOT more than the loaded revolver - another reason why IJ probably would not have bothered with carrying it plus the revolver (IMO). Even without the extra mag it's heavier.

LOL, that's pretty much what I carry every day concealed! It ain't THAT heavy. Actually one of the lighter guns I carry. You should feel a fully loaded Glock 20, with 18 rounds of 10mm in it,,,now THAT'S heavy. ;-)

TR

191145 · Post by **191145** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:03 pm

I didn't say it was HEAVY, I said it was HEAVIER than the loaded 4" Model 1917. The implication was that TOGETHER these two guns would represent a weight and handling problem that a 'high speed, low drag' guy like IJ would not encumber himself with. One or the other, IMO, but after all, IT'S ONLY A MOVIE!

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:57 pm

I would think a loaded Hi-Power should weigh about the same as an unloaded N-frame. A few ounces over 2 pounds.

In any event, absent a pending bar fight with Nazi thugs, I agree carrying both would be a pain.

191145 · Post by **191145** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:49 pm

Fully loaded with the extra mag and holster = 58 ounces! 3 lbs 10 ounces. With just one mag + loaded chamber (14 rounds) it's still 48 ounces (3 lb.). The Inglis is definitely a hunk of steel - maybe that's why they have endured and are still in service in several countries.

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:47 am

It's not the fact that two guns and extra ammo would weigh a lot. It's what was needed in a scripted movie. Reality doesn't play a part in a movie. Heck if it did, why would you carry two two different caliber guns? One gun with plenty of extra ammo would be more than sufficent.

I'm sure someone will say something about back up guns, because anything can argue anything. Bottom line - this is a Movie! They have to do what the script says they must do.

191145 · Post by **191145** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:08 pm

It's been suggested that the whole BHP deal was a gag anyway. Heck, they had no way of knowing the movie was going to be watched and talked about forever. 'Star Wars' was full of the same kind of stuff, like one storm trooper calling to another one inside the Millennium Falcon 'THX1138, come in'. You see, THX1138 was the name of an early Lucas sci-fi movie (1971).

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:56 pm

What's the gag? I thought they just substituted an HP for the 1911 because the HP blanks were more reliable.

RZ

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:02 pm

I think we sometimes over do this stuff and think things into the ground.

191145 · Post by **191145** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:07 pm

Imahomer wrote:I think we sometimes over do this stuff and think things into the ground.

Good grief, man, have you checked the jacket forum lately? Admittedly, I've had enough of this Inglis Hi-Power discussion. At least a 1911 existed in 1936!

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:23 pm

LOL!!!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:40 pm

Yeah, this section is TAME in comparison to the jacket section!

;-)

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:48 pm

Ahhhh the jacket wars section!?!?

Yep, people do get... err.... excited there! ;-)

Alkali Jones · Post by **Alkali Jones** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:05 pm

Hey RaiderZee,

What's the gag? I thought they just substituted an HP for the 1911 because the HP blanks were more reliable.

If I'm not mistaken, Indy does not shoot the S&W dry, then switch to the Hi power, rather, the Hi power just shows up now and again, unpredictably. Remember, GL and SS have this obsession with "B" movies. (I've never understood it!) Indy can loose his gun and whip to Belloq and have them right back in the packing sceen. He can shoot his S&W some, then his HP, then go back to his S&W. It's some sort of tip of the hat to those old "B" movies. They had poor continuity checking, so funny things might happen. That's why Indy almost always has his hat on, the oldies always left the hat on so as not to have to contend with continuity problems. So It's a Lucasian gag. (Same with Star Wars, too.)

Dan S

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:57 pm

That's an interesting read on it, but I'm not sure I'm buying it.

Alkali Jones · Post by **Alkali Jones** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:59 pm

Hey Imahomer,

What don't you buy? Most of this is public record. Watch the extras on the various films. They both (GL & SS) say as much, give or take a smidge. ;-)

Dan S

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:39 am

Hey 191145

Where did you get your plastic black grips for your hi-power? I'm looking for a set of those to put on mine. Let me know! Thanks!

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:37 am

They came on his hi power. The lanyard grips are harder to come by, but black plastic grips for hi powers are all over the place. You can get them here for $19.00. Scroll down to find them.

TR

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:15 pm

TR

191145 wrote:I'll put up some detailed pics soon, as I'm waiting for some correct black grips.

So I don't think they were on his gun originally. The wood grips were on his gun.

Also there is no "link" in your post, so where can I find the black plastic grips?

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:56 pm

Indiana Bond wrote:TR

191145 wrote:I'll put up some detailed pics soon, as I'm waiting for some correct black grips.
So I don't think they were on his gun originally. The wood grips were on his gun.

Also there is no "link" in your post, so where can I find the black plastic grips?

OOps! My bad! ;-) too much tequila ;-) Here's the link

http://www.sarcoinc.com/bhp.html

Also, if they weren't on his gun, than I assume they were changed out by someone else before he owned it. I believe the lanyard notch grips were always black plastic. (though I could be wrong- there's so many versions of the hi power out there it boggles the mind. I remember awhile back I was searching for wood lanyard grips and was never able to find any. I was going to try to add a lanyard to one of my hi powers.

TR

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:42 pm

TR,

No problem! Thanks for the info!!

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:54 pm

191145 that's a very nice looking Inglis. Appears to have the original finish.

BTW, as an aside I think you'll find they weren't made by Inglis under license from FN. FN was under German control at the time.
No license was part of the reason they weren't continued after the War. The Inglis is still my favourite HP though.

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:07 am

Check out the classifieds, I have one of these for sale

TR

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:48 am

Here it is

TR

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:23 am

I was just back home in Hawaii for a couple of weeks and had a chance to dig out my Browning Hi Power. It is a modern version with parkerized finish, spur hammer, and an extended ambidextrous safty and slide release. Had a chance to get a pair of classic style grips so I installed those. Gives it a more vintage Indy look. Here are some pics!

Here it is with the modern grips:

And here it is with the classic grips:

Alkali Jones · Post by **Alkali Jones** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:55 pm

Hey All,

I just checked the "Main Page" and saw that we're still calling Indy's back-up a "Browning Hi Power." Since the discussion has died down, and there appear to be no "nay-sayers", do we change the "Main Page" to say Inglis Hi Power? I think we should. Hey Mods, how does this work?

Dan S

Oh, and Indiana Bond, B-E-A-utiful gun. I did that to my Hi Power, too. But I guess I got Inglis grips, because now I need new grip screws. I also got a ring hammer from Midway USA, and it worked as a drop in replacement for the spur hammer, probably had 100 - 150 rounds through it and no hammer follow yet. Mine is still glossy/polished, though. Your matt looks much nicer.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:10 pm

I don't see any problem calling it a Browning hi-power. That is after all basically what the Inglis is a version of.

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:59 pm

Yup, it's a Browning Hi-Power, Inglis contract, Model Mk. II No. 1. Perhaps the main page should be a little more specific?

RZ

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:30 pm

except the contract part. Inglis didn't have a contract from Browning/FN, they just built them for the Allied cause. (Seems the Nazi controlled Browning-FN plant wouldn't authorise one

)

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:51 pm

True, there was that copyright thing (merely "a scrap of paper"). But didn't Inglis have a contract to make the pistol from the Canadian government/Commonwealth?

RZ

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:05 pm

RaiderZee wrote:True, there was that copyright thing (merely "a scrap of paper"). But didn't Inglis have a contract to make the pistol from the Canadian government/Commonwealth?

RZ

Yes they had that Crown contract or warrant. One of the reasons they didn't continue production after the War though was they did not have FN/Browning approval, and I think FN wanted to be the only manufacturer.

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:20 pm

Yes, Inglis didn't have the rights to continue making the pistol. And remember, Inglis was a generic manufacturing company that retooled for the war effort (a la Detroit). After the war Inglis went back to their primary business: manufacturing home appliances.

So what's the correct terminology: BHP, Inglis contract/production/model?

RZ

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:48 pm

RaiderZee wrote:
So what's the correct terminology: BHP, Inglis contract/production/model?

RZ

Good question. Probably BHP Inglis production (followed by model because they did manufacture the tangent site version as well)

The problem I have with 'contract' is (to me anyway) it implies a contract with Browning/FN, and that's misleading.
Of course most people won't know or care it's an 'Inglis'

Alkali Jones · Post by **Alkali Jones** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:24 pm

Hey All,

I mention the need to change the "Main Page" because an Inglis is quite distinctive in appearance from an FN. The rear sight was never made that way by FN. All Inglises had plastic (bakelite) grips, never wood. All Inglises had that matt finish and a "thumb print". They had lanyard rings. Some of those features appear from time to time on FNs, but all those features always appear on Inglises. It seems to me if we can distinguish between Stembridge and Bapty, (both are S&W, both have lanyard rings, and the only real difference is the stocks and front sights) we should distinguish between Browning, FN, and Inglis. Yes?

Dan S

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:47 pm

Alkali Jones,

I agree 100%. This site has always been one to promote total accuracy thus we should make sure we have the most cuurrent and up to date info presented to the general public on the main page. So I agree it should be presented as the Inglis. And while the Mods are at it they need to change the TOD revolver info also since it seems quite sure now that the handgun in the car chase scene is a COLT Official Police 4 inch .38 special. Check out the following thread for that discussion!

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=38086

BrandonA18 · Post by **BrandonA18** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:29 pm

Hi guys,

I wanted to chime in here as this is another one I have researched extensively.

Film armorers almost always have two examples of a given firearm on set, in case one breaks down or malfunctions. This is especially true for automatic style pistols, which have to be specially modified to work with blank ammunition and frequently jam, etc. Revolvers are less of a problem as their action is all mechanical, so if the round does not go off, the gun will not jam.

It's no surprise that for Raiders, armorer Simon Atherton had two pistols on set. One of these is indeed an Inglis model as has been pointed out here - with the higher rear site, and the thumbprint in the slide. The other model used on set (at least during the Raven Bar sequence) is the gun photographed in the "Making of Indy" book as Indy's FN pistol.

So both were guns were used and are "Indy correct". The discrepancy between the book photo and some of the screen captures is posted is the result of this use of a pair (in this case a slightly mismatched pair) of guns being used.

See attached screen captures of the FN pistol without the high rear site, and without the thumbprint in the slide.

Brandon Alinger
The Prop Store of London
www.propstore.com

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:06 pm

I'm not sure we can tell definitively from those photos. In the first the pistol is in motion and blurred, but appears to me could have a raised rear sight. The second is too dark to see any detail.

Alkali Jones · Post by **Alkali Jones** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:07 pm

Hey BrandonA18,

Well, I certainly see the sense of having two guns on set "just in case", however, I'm afraid I must agree with RCSignals on this. The first photo could be a blurred Inglis. The second photo does seem different from the Inglis because it lacks the obvious "hook" front sight, this could be the diminutive half moon sight many FNs have. If the first photo was an FN, then the second one seems like it couldn't be because of the missing sight. Follow? Do you have better screen caps? I'm interested.

Dan S
(The rightful highjacker of this thread)

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