The most screen accurate Raiders seaplane/washington hat YET

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:22 pm

It has been a long time I have been dreaming to get myself a grey "seaplane hat" that would match the famous and beloved grey hat from Raiders.

The first problem was the colour... but I'll get back to that.
The second problem was the price... I have plenty of AB/ABDs so I couldn't really afford anymore of those and I looked at cheaper offerings.
I wasn't really too convinced by the grey tones of Akubra (moonstone or charcoal) plus I'm not a fan of tall crowns so I placed my faith again into Christy's hands which, as many of you already know, is one of the cheapest rabbit felt hats on the market and as we have seen they can quite easily imitate the IJ hats. The pound-euro rate was favourable so I decided to do an experiment.

After some colour analysis which I left to a friend of mine and expert of the field, it came out that Christy's Burma colour was the closest to what we see on screen (you can argue with this as much as you like but this is what colour testing prooved). Not 100% match but the closest within their catalogue (we're talking of a very close match on pantone here).
The problem was, I could not find an actual picture of what the burma colour looked like in real life so there was still a huge amount of risk.

With my beloved temporarly away, this was perfect time for experimenting!

Before talking some more, I'll show you my results and I let you see the hat first then let you know some more details of this purchase.

Of course I bashed it accordingly....

This was a standard adventurer model but with some special requests: the size of the ribbon (slightly bigger than 39mm) and the shape of the knot (anything but what they currently put on their hats!).
The requests were met partially. They only had 1 leftover of the ribbon size I requested in a dark brown colour (I asked the usual indy colour but they had none in that size, it's still nice though) and the knot didn't come out as I asked but still different from the usual Christys.
I'm already planning to redo the knot so that will be soon fixed and eventually to get a new ribbon of the indy colour and the same size of this one (kindly provided by my all-time-favourite hatmaker).

Aside from little inconveniences that I expleined I'm very happy with Christy's customer service and how the hat came out. The colour as perhaps some of you guessed is not properly a gray colour but it seems to work great (again I remember Steve mentioning a "Grey Sable" of the original grey hat, or something along those lines).

I leave you with a comparison picture with my Adventurer sable as reference and I hope you won't criticize it too harshly. Afterall it was just a modest experiment to find a good raiders hat and I hope someone will benefit from it since there are no Burma hat pictures around.

(A VIDEO SHOWING THE COLOUR CAN BE FOUND HERE)

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:36 pm

I would love to comment on the colour, but there's been enough of that already in the past

;-)

Nice colour though, whatever it exactly is

Regards, Geert

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:42 pm

Thanks gwyddion. I personally love the colour too. I was very surprised by the tone and how nice it looks in pictures too, but please if you have any comments don't feel threatened by the controversies

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:52 pm

YES it is THAT colour the seaplane/washington hat was too !!

congrats, hey may I ask the specs on your hat? what hieght did you order it?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:58 pm

Thanks Dutch. I didn't request any specific height. I was only specific regarding the ribbon and the knot. The rest is just a standard Adventurer model in the Burma colour from their catalogue. I'm glad you liked it D ;-)

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:09 pm

Erri wrote:Thanks gwyddion. I personally love the colour too. I was very surprised by the tone and how nice it looks in pictures too, but please if you have any comments don't feel threatened by the controversies

Well, you asked for it

I think your hat is grey, only not the blue-ish grey we see on other hats, but one with a brown-ish undertone. kind of like a darker version of the CS grey. Well, that's how I see it from those pics

I must say, I realy like that colour

Regards, Geert

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:13 pm

I can only agree with you my friend. This hat has no blue undertone whatsoever. That's why I was a bit uneasy to call it peroperly "grey" because it's not the grey colour that everyone would picture it in his mind.

I believe the burma colour from Christy's is a very very good match and at least a nice looking lid which I'm planning to wear very often when travelling with style since it matches blue clothes very well too

NOTE: But before suggesting people to buy it though I must warn that it's not a tone of grey which people are used to, hardly grey at all... actually let me say IT'S NOT GREY so you won't blame me if you dont like the colour

...but it sure does look like it and it does its job in colour accuracy.

Still unsure about the ribbon colour (I would have preferred the same that they put on the sable) but it will do for a while.

Tremolo · Post by **Tremolo** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:42 pm

Congratulations on the new hat!
To me that looks pretty close and it really seems to be a very nice color on it´s own.
Is that a 45mm ribbon?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:51 pm

Thanks Tremolo. It's a 42 or 43mm. I took the measures from a vintage HJ from the right period that I own.
Since it's very hard to measure it from screengrabs I decided to go through deduction:
I knew that it was wider the standard ribbon that we see on the indy hat although not eccessively so I went through my collection of HJ hats to get I had an idea of which ribbon they used to have in stock in the old shop and which one was the closest to what I was looking for and bingo... 43mm ribbon from a hat made in the right period and place seemed to be the perfect match (the rest were either too tall -50mm or over- or very very narrow).

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:58 pm

what a great hat....nice bash in the crown erri

i do love that colour and it is veeeeeeeery close to what i see in the movie.

just a humble suggestion....you will notice that the clipper hat has little to no flanging on it (curl). if you iron that puppy flat, i think she'll be bang on..........but then i again, i know how much you love your brim curls ;-)

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:30 am

Ah yes G, I'm actually planning to "massage" the brim for a long time and let it go soft. These hats come with a certain stiffiness in their brims but it wears off rather quickly after some time and handling. I would prefer the natural way to the iron... it might take a few weeks but yes it's in the plans of course! But if you guarantee me that the iron is harmless I might actually try it... but I will need some instructions.
Thanks for the compliments G!

Dutch, I forgot to mention before that I also asked for a dimensional cut since they usually come 3" all around.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:35 am

Erri wrote:Ah yes G, I'm actually planning to "massage" the brim for a long time and let it go soft. These hats come with a certain stiffiness in their brims but it wears off rather quickly after some time and handling. I would prefer the natural way to the iron... it might take a few weeks but yes it's in the plans of course! But if you guarantee me that the iron is harmless I might actually try it... but I will need some instructions.
Thanks for the compliments G!

Dutch, I forgot to mention before that I also asked for a dimensional cut since they usually come 3" all around.

ahhhh, the natural route....i like it. i did that with my first hat and i really liked what it looked like in the end.

but, for those who want to accelerate the effects of time ;-) ......lightly spray your brim with distilled water and then put a cotton cloth (old t-shirt with no emblems....preferably white on top), then simply just iron on medium to high heat

......viola.....a pancake brim ;-)

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:16 pm

Thanks indiana G, I'll probably give it a try

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:56 pm

erri,

a couple of things to take note of. in using the cotton cloth between your hot iron and felt, you will avoid any of those 'felt burns' where it looks like you pounced the felt to a mirror finish.

also, in flattening the hat with heat, you will activate the stiffener so you will have to mold the brim a little bit to get the right look. it will give you a very flat 'mounty' look at first, but you can rework the brim beak back to where you want it with just a spray bottle or some light steaming (i would avoid steaming with a christy's ;-) )

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:03 pm

Well I would avoid steam with ANY hat but considering that we're talking of a rabbit felt and not too dense either yes I'll definitely stay away from the steam.

About the iron... I was thinking to put in between a kitchen cloth (also called "tea towel") which are usually thicker. Should I spray with water that too?

Does it really go very stiff using heat? I would have imagined the opposite!

Thanks again G, you really sound like a pro. Your successiful new hobby is paying off ;-)

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:17 pm

Erri wrote:Well I would avoid steam with ANY hat but considering that we're talking of a rabbit felt and not too dense either yes I'll definitely stay away from the steam.

About the iron... I was thinking to put in between a kitchen cloth (also called "tea towel") which are usually thicker. Should I spray with water that too?

Does it really go very stiff using heat? I would have imagined the opposite!

Thanks again G, you really sound like a pro. Your successiful new hobby is paying off ;-)

ohhhh, too many things that i don't know about your kitchen my friend...especially what tea towels you use

i do use a tea towel that is tacked onto a board for working on though.

i use a normal cotton t-shirt for this job as it is thin enough to absorb the excess moisture from the brim and also transmits the heat i want adequately. it maybe just a matter of playing with it i guess.

with the distilled water, and the iron, you will form steam on the brim which quickly dissipates as it is not soaking through the felt. the felt stiffener will be activated and in say 1 to 2 minutes, it will become quite stiff again. when you crush and scrunch a hat around, you break the stiffener within the hat and how it 'keeps the felt together'. steam will make the stiffener realign itself with the felt and hence a new rigid support system. a good measure of quality for a stiffener is its penetration into the felt. i have heard that some folks add alcohol to the stiffener for better penetration and so that it does not just sit on the surface.....providing little to no support on the shape.

this is my take of what i've learned so far. if i'm wrong, i love to know and get educated.

cheers,

G

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:07 pm

I think that the Burma color is spot on. In the old Christy's thread I said that none of the grey colors were SA, though I love the light grey, but that the burma color seemed to be right. Well, it is. Great job on the bash and requesting that ribbon.

Dave

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:14 pm

Thanks for your help Indiana G. I'll let you know how it goes, perhaps I'll post more pictures since I have a dedicated thread.

DR Ulloa wrote:I think that the Burma color is spot on. In the old Christy's thread I said that none of the grey colors were SA, though I love the light grey, but that the burma color seemed to be right. Well, it is. Great job on the bash and requesting that ribbon.

Dave

Dave I'm very sorry for not pointing out the Burma earlier, I had in my mind this colour for a while but I till few weeks ago I hadn't actually seen it in real life so I refrained from suggesting it to anyone since I wasn't sure it would have been a great match myself.
I'm glad that my expectations were met. The colour is beautiful in my opinion, it matches what we see in Raiders at a level of accuracy that none of the real greys ever really did. I'm sure that the original hat was very close to what I have in my hands right now and it makes sense why it has always been so long debated. As a matter of fact the colour is so elusive that I don't even know how to describe it.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:42 pm

Since it is quite hard to give a good idea of a colour through pictures I published a video of this hat. It can be found following this link

viewtopic.php?p=521950#521950

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:08 pm

That's perfect, Erri! You know I'm the PRESIDENT of the 'not even close to being grey hat, there is no grey hat!' club, and your Christy's hits it home just perfect! That is the color I have always seen, that brownish hue to it. Great job in finding it and posting. And you're right- you can argue all you want about it being grey, but this is the color on screen!

TR

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:22 pm

Thanks TR

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:23 pm

Forgive me if anyone hit this point. I haven't read the whole thread.
Did anyone hit upon the ribbon color? Wouldn't you have to have the same ribbon color as the one in the movie to know that you have the right lighting.

If the Christy's hat is the color than why doesn't the ribbon have that brown undertone? Maybe because it's not the right color. Maybe it's the lighting giving it the brown undertone. Erri, can you match the lighting so the ribbon has a brown tone to it?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:24 pm

Read the thread Oak

Ahh I knew that my new and provocative title would have stirred more interest than it originally did.

... ok I feel nice today so I'll summarize for you (but please go and read at least my first message). The ribbon colour is supposed to be the same as on the Sable but they didn't have that colour in the ribbon size I asked for so I thought that having the right size was for now more important than the colour. I already asked Marc to provide me the right colour of the right measure. Marky, a part from being a hat-nutcase and proud of it, is also the nicest guy and a good friend and he said he would provide it to me, I only have to wait for a while. For now I enjoy the wrong ribbon colour but in the right size

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:36 pm

I'm a little lost. What color is the ribbon? brown or black?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:41 pm

The colour is brown, dark brown. A bit lighter than the normal indy colour that goes on the sable hat. As I said, it will be changed eventually to the right colour, for now it will do

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... pared2.jpg

rover smith · Post by **rover smith** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:27 pm

Hey Erri,

Nice hat. Did you specify any dimensions other than the ribbon size or is that just the standard specs?

Scott

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:29 pm

Adventurer model (open crown), burma, wider ribbon, dimensional cut. That's all ;-)

rover smith · Post by **rover smith** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:22 am

Cool cool. thanks.

Scott

The Aviator · Post by **The Aviator** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:11 am

f the Christy's hat is the color than why doesn't the ribbon have that brown undertone?

That logic doesn't really prove anything as we know the current felt used by both HJ and seemingly Christie's is among the most or the most accurate colour we can find to replicate the Raiders shade of brown. Yet the ribbons are totally different in colour...as we know Steve and Marc have found the origional ribbon. So just because the ribbon is off doesn't detract from the view (at least in my mind) that this colour is close...very very close to the Seaplane and Washington hat.

Cheers

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:24 am

Thats not what I'm saying.

what color is the ribbon in the screen grabs of Ford wearing the grey hat??

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:42 pm

BendingOak wrote: what color is the ribbon in the screen grabs of Ford wearing the grey hat??

It's supposed to be the same colour that we see on his brown hats

The Aviator · Post by **The Aviator** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:58 pm

sorry misunderstood

Cheers

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:41 pm

Erri wrote:
BendingOak wrote: what color is the ribbon in the screen grabs of Ford wearing the grey hat??
It's supposed to be the same colour that we see on his brown hats

How do we know this?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:48 pm

I could say that I know this as I knew that Burma was the closest match to the Raiders grey... from what I showed I seemed to be quite right so I could say "trust me" (with the cheekyness of Indy talking to Marion).

But without making too many mysteries...

of that I know because so it is according to a friend of mine who made for me an accurate study of the images, as I wrote in my first post.

Now, feel free to argue about my friend's expertise but from what I've showed till now I believe we have to give him at least some credit considering how close the burma colour actually appears to be in comparison to the original grey hat.

Tremolo · Post by **Tremolo** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:09 am

Now after some time has passed, I´m even more impressed with this colour! Has anybody else ordered one by now?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:16 am

I'm not sure if I buy this color idea or the ribbon height.

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:04 am

I'm very tempted to order one. It's a great look.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:18 pm

BendingOak wrote:I'm not sure if I buy this color idea or the ribbon height.

I don't "buy" the greys from other brands either

but I understand concerns about my choice of colour because I was concerned first! What's wrong with ribbon height though? Isn't it generally known and accepted that the ribbon on the grey hat was higher than on the regular Indy hats.... or was it just me supposing it? Just curious. It's just a few millimiters more nothing special, it's not 50 or 60mm

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:41 pm

Erri wrote:
BendingOak wrote:I'm not sure if I buy this color idea or the ribbon height.
I don't "buy" the greys from other brands either but I understand concerns about my choice of colour because I was concerned first! What's wrong with ribbon height though? Isn't it generally known and accepted that the ribbon on the grey hat was higher than on the regular Indy hats.... or was it just me supposing it? Just curious. It's just a few millimiters more nothing special, it's not 50 or 60mm

i believe that the clipper hat did have a larger ribbon......so you're not alone erri......

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:43 pm

Glad we're not alone in this Universe

. Your avatar always cracks me up G, so cute

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:47 pm

Erri wrote:Glad we're not alone in this Universe . Your avatar always cracks me up G, so cute

........hey.....that's my serious face!!!! it show's that i'm 'bulldog tough'!!!........oh oh......now i gotta send oak some royalties for using his trademark.........

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:49 pm

Indiana G wrote:
Erri wrote:Glad we're not alone in this Universe . Your avatar always cracks me up G, so cute
........hey.....that's my serious face!!!! it show's that i'm 'bulldog tough'!!!........oh oh......now i gotta send oak some royalties for using his trademark.........

definitely your trademark. I can spot at once when you write something because of the dog on the side. No need to read your nickname. Don't ever change if you can

Well anyawy... going back on topic... whatever I said previously is still valid

jkdbuck76 · Post by **jkdbuck76** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:31 pm

Don't know if this fits, but I wonder why they did the grey hat in Raiders in only two scenes?

Any thoughts (other than they shot both scenes at the same time and place)?

rover smith · Post by **rover smith** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:38 pm

Its his dress hat and the brown is his adventure hat?

Scott

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:42 pm

rover smith wrote:Its his dress hat and the brown is his adventure hat?

Scott

I believe that was the original concept but I never understood if we were supposed to notice that the hat was different or not. It took years only to get some confirmation about its existance.

rover smith · Post by **rover smith** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:03 am

I never realised there was a doubt about there being a grey and a brown fedora until I found this place. I'd always noticed the difference, I never really gave it a second thought

Scott

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:07 am

You should read some of the old arguments on that one. The debates were quite spirited!

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:14 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:You should read some of the old arguments on that one. The debates were quite spirited!

I remember I was originally in the Brown Team... eventually betrayed and converted to the Grey Team

It's quite a laugh when we think back to some issues of years ago but back then many of us were ready to stab people for an opinion

... well I guess it's still is the same way, just different topics, some old some also new.

rover smith · Post by **rover smith** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:21 am

haha, I can imagine. Still havnt ordered my christys yet, major slow down at work this month.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:30 am

rover smith wrote:haha, I can imagine. Still havnt ordered my christys yet, major slow down at work this month.

Are you getting a Burma? Or just a normal Sable? You will surely stick out in Glasgow my friend