my "close enough" (pre-)model 10

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:31 am

Howdy,

After searching with no success to find a 1917 within my budget, I just picked up an older Model 10. The best thing: it has 1917-style correct Indy grips:

Did the Model 10s ever come standard with this grip?

Now: could/should I install a lanyard ring (or have someone else do it)?

RaiderZee
armed & slightly dangerous

Jakob Emiliussen · Post by **Jakob Emiliussen** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:34 am

Very nice, and it sure looks the part...

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:55 am

Hey that is one of the best close enoughs I've seen yet. Very nice piece!

Nibs

191145 · Post by **191145** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:30 pm

You can install a lanyard loop (get a real one and have it done by a gunsmith) IF the serial number is offset enough that the work will not touch it. It's a very big deal to obscure or alter a serial number, and another big deal to move it to another location. The Victory Model had the number offset for this purpose, and some early M&Ps like yours still had an offset number. I plan on doing the same thing as you, except I'm using real Victory Model grips (plain walnut - I like yours better) and a small sling swivel that looks just like a lanyard loop.

ETA: Those grips must be for a 'K' frame (your gun) because the 'N' frame (1917) grips are a little larger.

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:02 pm

Yeah, this is his is actually a pre-model 10. It was misidentified by the place from which it was purchased. Serial # has "C" on one side of the butt, then a space (for the future lanyard ring) the "424xxx". Anyone with a S&W reference who can give me a year on this one?

RaiderZee
Better to be lucky than good . . .

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:22 pm

thats actually BETTER than a real 1917........ Cheaper ammo!

dr. tyree · Post by **dr. tyree** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:06 am

Sweet! One of the first guns I ever fired was an old Model 10. For pretty much any purpose one can imagine asking a handgun to realistically fulfill, they just don't get much better. Congratulations, that's a beauty and the grips do look terrific. Personally, I wouldn't even bother with the lanyard. It already looks great.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:08 am

I've always liked the old M&P Smith over the Model 10, as it had the smoother 'long action' rather than the short action of the 'improved' 10. The M&P was originally created by Smith and Wesson for delivery to our 'boys' during the Spanish/American war in 1898, but the war was so short, the guns were literally sitting on the loading dock when the end was announced, so they had to find another buyer. That's when the police purchase option was added, as it was a 100% military contract to begin with. THAT'S why it's was called 'Military and Police' revolver, and had no number designation until the action was redesigned and assigned the Model 10 model number. This occurred after WW2.

It was rumored that Teddy Roosevelt was partial to this revolver, and one of the stories told was the revolver he carried up San Juan hill was one recovered from the Battleship Maine that sank in the Havana harbor. Others have said it was actually a Colt New Navy (one gosh awful revolver in it's own right, but that's another story ;-) ), but either way, Teddy DID have a M&P with ivory grips and a 6 inch barrel in his personal collection of carry guns. You have a piece of history there, my friend.

VERY VERY nice gun, regardless of the reasons you purchased it. It's a sweet shooter, and one you'll love owning as the years go by. They just don't make 'em like that anymore.

Regards! Michaelson

Solent MKIII · Post by **Solent MKIII** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:19 am

Two thumbs WAAAAY up

- a great purchase!

191145 · Post by **191145** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:43 am

I just received my 'M&P' last night. It's C 240xxx and has a little more wear than yours, but is still about 70% I'd guess. I've never had a revolver before, and it's true that these early ones have a great action. I'd really like to find a set of grips like yours, though! These are not really 'early' ones which would be around 1900.

Deleted +P reference

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:09 pm

Howdy,

Yeah I figured mine to be made later than 1952. Did they continue to make these AFTER the Model 10 was introduced in 1957-8? And where did you get your info on using +P ammo, if I may ask? Does S&W say this "officially" or is it kind of tacitly understood?

RaiderZee

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:11 pm

I believe it was about 1955 (when the 44 mag came out) the modification to the model 10 was made, so yours would have been 'current' for 1952. The M&P long action was stopped when the 10 was introduced, so I'm sure they still had a bunch on the shelf at the factory that they sold for years afterwards, but no, no more were made after they re-tooled for the 10. They were completely different actions.

Plus P ammo was really created for guns made with better metalurgy in the late 1960's and newer, so though I bet your gun would take the pressure, it would eventually wreck the frame and crane. I'd just use standard pressure rounds in that fine old revolver. It will last forever that way.

As a final thought from me, if I had to choose between a model 10 and your gun, I would take your gun. They were just a better made and finished revolver. Not taking a thing away from the 10. The M&P was designed and produced by a completely different generation of gunmakers, and it showed in their work and design. It was just a better made gun.
It wouldn't stand up to the pressure of todays high powered ammo, that's true, but using it's own designed pressure ammo, it can stand with the best of them day in and day out. It began as a military revolver, and HAD to be tough for field use.

Regards! Michaelson

191145 · Post by **191145** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:12 pm

Sorry about the misdirection on +P. That was definitely concerning the later Model 10, not the M&P. With the wide assortment of standard-pressure .38 Special loads, there should be no need for it anyway.

'The M&P was designed and produced by a completely different generation of gunmakers, and it showed in their work and design. It was just a better made gun.'

That was my thinking when I finally got my hands on it. I don't know when C 240xxx was made, but it sure has that quality look and feel. I'm sure glad I got a M&P rather than the Model 10s I was looking at. I'm now rethinking drilling the butt strap for a lanyard loop. These guns are going to start getting valuable one day.

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:21 am

I really wanted to install a lanyard ring myself, but won't the collectors' value of the gun be reduced if we do this? Not that that is why I bought it. ;-) Did the M&P come with this option originally?

RaiderZee

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:02 am

It looks great. How much did it set you back?

191145 · Post by **191145** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:13 am

Commercial M&Ps (C prefix) did not have the lanyard loop, but the serial number was offset to allow for it just like the 'Victory Model. Yes, you will destroy any collector value by by making any permanent alteration, including refinishing. That's why I said above that I was rethinking the lanyard loop myself. Now, in reality, these guns were mass-produced and many thousands of them exist. It's quite possible that only pristine examples 'in the box' will ever have any real collector value in our lifetimes, so if you make such a modification, it's quite possible that your only loss will be a portion of the price you paid plus the cost of the gunsmithing and lanyard loop, which I think will be about $100. If you do the loop, get a real one for the 'Victory Model' and have it installed professionally. If you simply don't care about 'value', you could use a small sling swivel with a short machine screw (looks just like the lanyard loop for all practical purposes). Have the gunsmith drill a blind hole and tap it for the screw. At some future time, a set screw could be put in the hole instead of the lanyard screw - everyone would know it's not original, but at least it wouldn't be disfiguring. It could even be completely covered with a set of 'target grips' which cover the bottom strap.

As to price for a vintage M&P, mine cost me $268 including shipping and transfer fee. There are not many functional firearms you can get for that price today.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:33 am

The space was also left for after market application for a lanyard ring for law enforcement, so if you have a gunsmith install a lanyard ring in the space allotted, it will NOT detract from the value of the gun as it was a catalog option. It was also carried forward for a few years for the model 10 and model 13 .357 mag version.

Regard! Michaelson

191145 · Post by **191145** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:41 pm

Michaelson; thanks for the info. In that case you would have to use the real part and it would have to be installed correctly. I found a couple of them on Gunbroker, and the design would indicate one large hole to be drilled into the butt strap with a smaller cross pin hole to retain it and allow rotation. Maybe I'll put one in after all!

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:54 pm

Numrich has the parts online: S&W M&P Butt Swivel and Butt Swivel Pin. $21.00 including shipping.

RaiderZee

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:10 pm

WELL . . .

I purchased the above referenced firearm online from a respected dealer. All the descriptions I have given about this weapon came from a phone conversation. Well, the gun arrived at my local FFL dealer today. I went to pick it up, and it is a BEAUT, even better than the picture indicates: clean, tight action, etc.

At the end of my inspection, I checked the serial # on the butt. It was NOT the one the dealer told me over the phone. He told me "C 484xx", but this one read "551xxx".

HUH??

Turns out the online dealer had TWO earlier M&Ps in his store. The piece I received was in fact the one pictured, but his assistant had read me the wrong specs over the phone. Mine was not made in the 1950s, but instead is an M&P of 1905, 4th change, circa 1922-24!

WOW! It's not exactly $15 Aldens, but . . . "me so happy"!

RaiderZee

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:03 am

Wow! That's a fantastic "mistake!"

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:06 am

Agreed. You got the best of the two, in my opinion.

Congratulations!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

191145 · Post by **191145** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:51 pm

That explains the grips, which would be original for the '20s. That's a great buy! Mine (c 240xxx) must be '40s or early '50s, but I still will look for a set of those grips to put on it in lieu of the plain 'Victory' grips. They are just so 'right' for this purpose. I finally got around to cleaning mine today and installing the grips - it really is nice, with a beautiful bore. Looks like a gun that was carried a lot and shot little, with perfect finish wear for an IJ revolver. Mine came with a set of huge S&W 'target' grips which along with the 'Victory' grips I'll probably sell eventually.

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:45 pm

Check this link out for "S&W K Frame Revolver Square Butt Pistol Grips":

http://vintagegungrips.net/ao-s78.html

They're hard plastic, but they are the right pattern, including medallions. You'd have to paint 'em though.

RaiderZee

191145 · Post by **191145** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:53 pm

I just found a S&W site with a serial number list, and my C 240xxx is 1953. That's cool because I also have a Colt Government Model from '53. It's a '5-screw' like Raider Zee's.

191145 · Post by **191145** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:39 am

Hey, Zee; A pair of grips like the ones on your revolver just sold on ebay for $101.76!!!

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:26 pm

Just the GRIPS? Man that's insane. I was looking on a gun board on a post dated from 2001. They were saying M&Ps in good condition were fetching $150-$175. They're $375 and up on GunBroker right now.

Now, if I sold my grips and replaced them with plastic ones that have the Indy-style medallion insert . . , NAH!

RaiderZee
heading to the shooting range in about 10 minutes

Solent MKIII · Post by **Solent MKIII** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:50 am

I had to pay somewhere around $80.00 for a near-pristine pair of WWII P-38 grips a while back.

Figures that later on, someone was making repros for half that price!

Be sure to give a range report when you get back, Zee - let us know how the old girl performed.