Zorro Whip

FloatinJoe · Post by **FloatinJoe** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:59 pm

I am looking for some information concerning the two Zorro whips offered on Mark Allen's site Western Stage Props.

The first whip is The Official Zorro Whip. It is made by Joe Strain (though not labeled as such on the site). It measures in at 6' 6". Of course it is black. Cost: $795.

The first whip is The Son of Zorro Whip. It is made Paul Nolan (Corrected from my previous statement that it was Bob Nolan, the lead singer of the Sons of the Pioneers). It measures in at 5' 5". It is also black. Cost: $350.

They both come with ornamental metal bands. The Official Zorro Whip also comes with a butt plate. These pieces of metal are silver, gold, and nickel and engraved. These are also what is probably driving the cost of the whips up. Silver isn't cheap.

If anyone has any information about either of these whips, please post them it here or contact me directly. Pictures would be greatly appreciated, since the ones on the site aren't that good. One thing I am not looking for is a discussion on the quality of either of these whipmakers. I have researched both, and am happy with the reviews on the board. I am just looking for specific research/reference material on these two particular whips. Also, I have gone through the archives and am familiar with the material that is posted there.

Thank you in advance for your help and consideration.

Mike

P.S. In case anyone is wondering what all the questions are about, I'm seriously considering Zorro as my next costume.

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:26 pm

whos Bob Nolan?

Boggstandard · Post by **Boggstandard** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:47 pm

Paul Nolan of Midwest Whips would be a good resource regarding Zorro whips.
I believe he has made various versions of that particular whip.
Joe Strain can make anything you might want and has also made a version of the Zorro whip.
As you no doubt know, you are likely to pay a premium for whips sold by Western Stage Props. In my view, it is always best to go directly to the source.

www.midwestwhips.com

www.northernwhipco.com

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:07 pm

Hi Mike,

I've seen plenty of misspellings of my name, Noland, Nowland, etc..., but never Bob. Lol, No worries though, I got a kick out of it.

Regarding the Son of Zorro whip, it is actually a 4ft whip braided length, and the total length is about 5'5". The Official Zorro whip is 6'6" braided length not including the fall and popper. I'm not sure why WSP does that in the catalog, but I don't have any control over that. If you are going for a Zorro costume I would say to go for the Official Zorro whip, as it would be more accurate. Personally, I've always seen the Son of Zorro whips (or Lil' Zorros as I like to call them) as either a kids whip, or an indoor performers whip due to the short length.

Also, it may interest you that I have the Screen Used Zorro whip, used by Sir Anthony Hopkins in the Candle Snuffing/Cave scene, and it is on the market to anyone who is interested.

Here are a couple of pictures of the Screen Used Zorro whip, which was also the prototype for the Alex Green and Official Zorro whip:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d163/ ... owhip1.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d163/ ... owhip2.jpg

Also, since you asked for pictures of the Son of Zorro whip, here are a couple from my website, although the ones in these pictures are from back a few years ago:

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
www.midwestwhips.com

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:11 pm

Mike, What exactly would you like to know about the Zorro whips? I have one of the Offical whips; it’s a great whip. Very fast and precise with a medium weight. The handle length is about 14 inches and makes it act like an Australian bullwhip or a target whip compared to the Indy style bullwhips. The Official whip Joe makes has 2 plaited kangaroo bellies and a 12 plait kangaroo overly. Its finished with a 6 plait point and has a black “whitehide” fall. Originally the base of the handles on these whips where graphite but Joe Strain has switched to using spring steel, which gives little, more flex to them. They sell them as 6.6ft whips, but they actually used a many different lengths in the movie. I believe you can custom order them in different lengths if needed.

Here are a couple photos of mine.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/244/pa250209ip2.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2544/pa250210zc6.jpg

Paul Nolan (Not Bob LOL) makes the Son of Zorro whips, and since he already posted i dont need to say too much about them, While They never shown up in the movies they were inspired by them. I’ve played around with them a bit and considered getting one my self, it’s a nice little whip. The photo in the WSP site/catalog are actually out dated, it shows a 8plait version of the whip made years ago, the Son of Zorro whips Paul makes for them now look a lot nicer in my opinion and has a 12 plait overlay.

Just to complicate things more, as Paul AKA Bob, said The Bullwhips used in the Mask of Zorro where actually a couple Black 16 plait Alex Green Style bullwhips that where supplied by Western Stage props and where Alex’s Personal whips. Though David Morgan supplied several of his Black 453’s bullwhips to the Mask of Zorro too.

The sterling silver (and gold inlay on the Official whip) band does increase the price, but these are very well made expensive whips to begin with. The official licensing also drives up the cost too as Zorro Productions, Inc who issues product licensing has to get their percent of the cut on them.

Since your already familiar with what’s been posted here about these whips, you probably seen this thread already but if not here it is
viewtopic.php?t=26168 Anyway, If you decide to go with the Zorro costume, let me know I have some detailed photos of the Antonio Banderas costume from when it was auctioned off, I would be happy to send you, if you like. I've been saving them for ZorroGear.com

Dan

Boggstandard · Post by **Boggstandard** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:15 pm

Hey Paul,

Did you know that Bob Nolan was one of the original Sons of the Pioneers singing group, along with Roy Rogers.

Aside from making amazing whips, do you sing?

FloatinJoe · Post by **FloatinJoe** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:04 pm

Okay, I'm going to start off with this: Paul, I'm sorry about the screw-up. I am a fan of Bob Nolan and the Sons of the Pioneers and this isn't the first time I've made this mistake. Maybe someday I'll learn from it.

As for information that I was looking for, the structure of the whip was definitely part of it. I didn't realize that the whip had a 14-inch handle, or was similar to the target design. Since these are licensed to Western Stage Props, I take it that I can't order directly for Paul or Joe.

Has anyone tried to order a whip in a different length? Dan, I know you mentioned you thought it was possible, but has anyone out there done it? I think what I'd like is a 12-footer. I already own whips in the 8- and 10-foot lengths. I would be using this for both costume and practical use. Because I'm also using it for costume, I'd like to have a longer whip.

Dan, any chance that you'll be making an appearance at the Queen Mary? If by some chance you do, could you bring it along? I'd really like to try it out.

Also, I'd love any information that you can provide about the costume. I haven't fully decided which route I want to go down: Antonio Banderas, Anthony Hopkins, Guy Williams, Tyrone Power, or Douglas Fairbanks. Each holds a special place for me, Tyrone is truly my favorite; though Antonio is the most recognizable (plus I have his sword already); Fairbanks is the original; and Guy Williams' son is offering faithful reproductions of his costume. I've also toyed with the idea of doing a George Hamilton version (the fruit-colored versions are a possibility too).

Thank you everyone for the help and advice. I realize that this was more of an open-ended question just looking for info, than a specific question. As people think of more info, please post it.

Thanks again, and once again, Paul, I'm sorry about the mistake.

Mike

Boggstandard · Post by **Boggstandard** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:16 pm

I don't know for sure, but I can't imagine that Joe or Paul would be precluded from making whatever they want to make.
DM certainly wasn't prevented from making Indy style whips.
But, maybe there is some sort of exclusivity clause/agreement.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:28 pm

Mike, I should have made myself more clear, I spoke to Mark Allen who owns Western Stage props last year about ordering these whips in different lengths, I was thinking about getting an 8ft version at the time. He said no problem but that it would cost about a $100 more. That was before the big price jumped to $795 though so I have no idea how much more a 12ft would run today. While I don’t know any one who actually has ordered one in a different length, Drop them an inquiry, they are always happy to take custom orders for whips.

While you can order the zorro style bullwhips from Paul or Joe, They can’t and won’t be able to include the silver band on them. Those particular bands are made up for Western Stage Props and are exclusive to their whips. I almost forgot though, One of 6ft Joe Stains black Indy stlye bullwhips also made its way into the MoZ film.

Dejahthoris had been twisting my arm to get me to come to the Queen Mary summit this year but at this point I wont be able to make it, if that changes in the next 6 or 7 weeks I’ll bring the Zorro whip with me for you to try. Here is a short clip of it in action though from 0:00 to 0:33; it may give you some idea how the whip performs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrmZBFKGvEg

Needless to say I’m a big Zorro fan too, especially of the whips used though out the different incarnations over the years. I did some in-depth research in conjecture with the Douglas Fairbanks Sr. museum regarding the stock whips used in Don Q, Son of Zorro a while back, and I have one of those United Cutlery swords; it’s a nice companion piece to the bullwhip. Private me your e-mail address and I’ll send you the costume photos I have.

Dan

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:50 pm

I to have one of the earlier United Cutlery zorro swords.
its the "special edition" one, that came with the scabbard, however all the fittings on it are an antiqued silver instead of the bright chrome that the standard model had...

Being more of a swordsman than a whipsman (is that a word?) I have done some research on the Zorro sword.... very interesting..
The hilt is actually a near copy of a historical naval hanger however the original hanger did NOT have the thin Rapier like blade, it was actually a curved saber-like blade....
also, one of the things that is so bizarre about that sword is that they "reversed" the direction of the shell guards.
weird.....

Im a huge zorro fan myself, but the markup on that whip is just a bit much IMO........... who knows....... maybe one day ill give in....

hey Dan, im curious...... what number is yours?

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:15 am

Shagbd, I agree about the price mark up. One thing you’ll notice is that kangaroo whips go up in price every year, but last year Western Stage Props prices really spiked, and it sent the Zorro whip from $595 to $795. Mine is #065.

A interesting bit of trivia about the swords, Tony Swatton who made the original Zorro swords for the film, also made Spalko’s swords for KotCS.

FloatinJoe · Post by **FloatinJoe** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:05 am

I own the United Cutlery sword too. It in a fine decorative piece, but I wish it had been made well enough to be used. It will be nice to have a black whip with it.

At work now, will post more later.

Mike

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:01 am

Hey, I actually met Tony Swatton! His shop was really cool. There were swords, guns, and metal bikinis all over the place!

Mike,
(and Dan Borton can correct me on these details if I'm wrong

),

If I remember correctly, Anthony Hopkins was the only character (in the first new movie) to use the 'official' Zorro whip sold by Western Stage Props. I think the whip that Banderas used in that movie was a 6 ft Strain Indy-style bullwhip with an 8" handle and no fancy metal rings. Also, in the opening scene with Hopkins fighting as Zorro and using the whip in various stunts, it looks like a short-handled Indy-esqe bullwhip in black.

I'd guess that the short-handled bullwhips were used in those scenes because the whip was also worn on Zorro's belt, and the shorter handle looks better on a belt. In the second Zorro movie with Banderas I remember seeing the longer-handled 'official' whip on Zorro's belt, and I think it didn't hang as well as a shorter-handled bullwhip.

Though, since you're considering the costuming from earlier movies, a stock whip wouldn't be out of the question. Douglas Fairbanks uses a stock whip in at least one of his Zorro movies ("Don Q, Son of Zorro"?).

If you're looking for a 12 footer, I'd say get an Indy-style whip in black, as opposed to getting an 'official' whip made to the extra length. Of course, the main problem would be getting a custom whip made in time for Halloween. I know several whip makers who have waiting times of 3-4 months at the moment.

-Adam

FloatinJoe · Post by **FloatinJoe** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:06 am

Adam,

That's what I thought for the movies as well. It always seemed to be a standard "Indy" whip in MoZ. As for the Halloween deadline, there isn't one. I'm just looking to put this all together for possible usage at any Cons I might attend. Plus, this is a good excuse to learn how to use a sword.

Also, I think we should have a ZorroGear.com like Dan said. There's plenty to talk about. I can just imagine the discussion around what shade of black was worn.

Mike

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:41 am

winrichwhips wrote:Hey, I actually met Tony Swatton! His shop was really cool. There were swords, guns, and metal bikinis all over the place!
-Adam

ya know, I actually had a sword on order from Tony last year, but he said he was wrapped up in making stuff for Indy 4 and would be delayed....... i still havent heard back from him...... lol

myrddin · Post by **myrddin** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:37 pm

Whenever I can scrape the money together, I've going to comission a Zorro-like whipe from Joe. I don't need the authentic silver band or anything. Just a nice black 10 footer with the double knots and unique braiding on the handle.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:28 am

Adam is right, Anthony Hopkins was the only one in the Mask of Zorro using the "Alex Green" long handled bullwhips (not counting Alex) The “Official” Zorro whips weren’t actually developed until after that film was released. The AG whips where the ones used in the cave scene’s and is the one that Paul now owns. They decided to use Alex’s personal whips for those scene basically just by choice. Alex having grown up in Australia was never as keen on the heavy weighted, shorter handle American style bullwhip David made, So his own whips would have been preferred for the candle snuffing set up.

The AG whips of today are made somewhat differently now then they where in 1997-98, now they are made just like the Official Zorro whips. But back then the handle section was a couple inches shorter and the whips where shot loaded. Also as mentioned these where 16 plait as opposed to the normal 12 plait, I believe they weren’t finished with shellack either.

The bullwhips used both at the start of the Mask of Zorro and towards the end in the mine scenes were the black David Morgan bullwhips.

This is one of the 8ft bullwhips they used, sans the popper.

As I mentioned a 6ft black Joe Strain Indy style bullwhip made it into the film too. As I understand it that whip was more an after thought. The prop master made a mistake and they needed a 6ft bullwhip in a hurry and that’s the whip they ended up getting. I think Gery Deer owns it now, Indecently that same 6ftbullwhips was later used by Halle Berry while she trained for the Catwoman role with Alex Green.

When the Legend of Zorro sequel started preproduction they went to Western Stage Props to order the new whips and ended up ordering Zorro whips this time. Since they needed many and in different lengths, Joe Strain who makes them ended up producing a total of 14, four 6fts two 8fts, a 10ft and three 12fts as well as the 16 and 25 ft stunt whips for the swinging sequences. Not that there was that much real whip cracking in that film.

By the way, Paul Nolan can make a pretty good copy of a Cecil Henderson Stock whip similar to the ones Douglas Fairbanks Sr. was using in 1924’s Don Q, if you want one of those

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:36 am

I just wanted to add a little to what Dan was saying.

I was just speaking to Joe a few days ago on the phone and he informed me that the whip that paul owns, the one used in the cave "snuffing" scene is actually a one of a kind whip.
its a 16 plait as Dan mentioned, but also the handle is a fiberglass rod which is flexible.
its the "AG" prototype whip, and, as Joe told me a few days ago, the only one he ever made that was 16 plait and had the fiberglass handle foundation.
he said everyone after that one had a steel foundation and was 12 plait...

i guess thats something that makes the whip that paul has even MORE special........... TRUELY one of a kind

kooniu · Post by **kooniu** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:20 am

BullWhipBorton wrote:.....

By the way, Paul Nolan can make a pretty good copy of a Cecil Henderson Stock whip similar to the ones Douglas Fairbanks Sr. was using in 1924’s Don Q, if you want one of those

I found such a photograph.

http://users.telenet.be/zorro-themanyfa ... /donq4.jpg

do you have better one pictures this whip ?

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:32 am

Zorro's Black Whip

http://www.videodetective.com/?publishedid=194103

~It made me smile~

Tony

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:37 am

Here are a couple publicity stills that show the Henderson stock whips used in the Don Q film. Doug Sr., was actually quite good with those whips too.

kooniu · Post by **kooniu** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:46 am

it is a beautiful whip. Thank you

suburbancomics · Post by **suburbancomics** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:04 pm

I have been trying to put together a Family Channel Zorro costume for some time now, I bought my whip from a little vendor in Mexico for $20.00. The whip looks really good and I have even gotten a few really nice cracks out of it. And by the way FloatinJoe I think you should give the Family Channel Zorro costume some consideration for the style you want to go with, it is simple and classic all in one!!!!

[img][img]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a314/ ... titled.jpg[/img][/img]

Oh and I think a zorrogear.com would be great, there would probably be countless threads on the proper way to grow a proper Zorro mustache!!!

One last thing just so i'm not stepping on any toes here I got this zorro image from http://fansofduncanregehr.com/

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:43 pm

THANK YOU for bringing up the Family Channel Zorro
I used to watch this show as a kid and LOVED IT

its a total mystery to me why this hasnt been released in a boxed set...

suburbancomics · Post by **suburbancomics** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:40 pm

Shagbd, I am always ecstatic when I meet a fellow Family Channel Zorro fan, I too have many fond memories of watching this show. I don't know why they were never released on DVD but here is an excerpt from newworldzorro.com about the currant status of this. Ok sorry to get too off topic, I know this tread is supposed to be about Zorro's whip!!!!!

"I am sorry to say that I am extremely pessimistic about this series ever being available again, either on television in the United States or on DVD. Zorro Productions is not interested, and they and everyone else always says that they do not know who has the rights to the show. I think that we are given this response so that we will leave them alone. How can they NOT know who owns the rights?"

FloatinJoe · Post by **FloatinJoe** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:17 pm

suburbancomics wrote:I have been trying to put together a Family Channel Zorro costume for some time now, I bought my whip from a little vendor in Mexico for $20.00. The whip looks really good and I have even gotten a few really nice cracks out of it. And by the way FloatinJoe I think you should give the Family Channel Zorro costume some consideration for the style you want to go with, it is simple and classic all in one!!!!

Suburbancomics, honestly, I'm not that familiar with this one. I never watched it. Maybe if I could see a few episodes things would be different. What I'm kinda thinking of doing is melding all of the different portrayals and using the features I like best from each to create a representation that is truly my own.

Mike

suburbancomics · Post by **suburbancomics** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:15 pm

FloatinJoe: You can check out pretty much every episode of the Family Channel Zorro on youtube, as a Zorro fan I think you would like it. Good luck with your costume, I think it is very cool that you want to make it your own style.

FloatinJoe · Post by **FloatinJoe** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:24 pm

suburbancomics wrote:FloatinJoe: You can check out pretty much every episode of the Family Channel Zorro on youtube, as a Zorro fan I think you would like it. Good luck with your costume, I think it is very cool that you want to make it your own style.

I'll have to check out YouTube and see what I find.

Back to the whips for a moment... Is Dan the only person on the board that owns one?

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:32 pm

A couple other members have the Offical Zorro whips too, but they are not as active on the board.

FloatinJoe · Post by **FloatinJoe** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:05 pm

Dan,

Do you know if Tony Swatton made the dagger/knife that Zorro carried in The Legend of Zorro? I checked his website and didn't see any reference to it. There are several other items shown there from the movie, but not a dagger for Zorro.

Mike

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:23 pm

thats a good question

shoot Tony a email, hes a really nice guy and im sure he'd be eager to make one for ya!

looked like a pretty simple ebony handled dagger to me...... any good screen grabs of it?

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:37 pm

Can't say for sure, Tony would probably know.