VIDEO! Winston Theory HAT!!

[3thoubucks]

John Isaac, HJ employee, Swales co-worker, recently stated here, that hats were not blocked in the shop, but were shaped there. Usually downstairs by the girls. This probably means you could walk into HJ and buy a preshaped hat off the shelf. He never got back to my question about whether hats ever got telescope crowns, but I think that was implied- "We always called that a pork pie crown as opposed to the puddled crown...." ...... Now, I have insisted for years that the lines from a pork pie existed on the Raiders hat, and I have presented lots of pictures to prove it. And over the years I have always shaped my hats with a pork pie, to get the lines. THE PROBLEM IS, my hats have been too domed to easilly get any serious lines- I have to pick the spots where I want to see them and concentrate pinching the telescope there. I can't get proper 360 lines without doing it in sections. ---- We see Ford don the Raiders hat twice- on top of the Well of Souls and in the Waco plane. Both times he uses 2 hands to incrementaly TUG the thing down onto his head. -It has to be a very tight fit. ---- recently I saw a non-hat related video of myself in my Akubra. I wasn't carefully modeling it for YouTube. The crown didn't look full enough. ...I'm thinking a very small hat with a very full crown is what is needed, not a comfortable fitting hat with a typical crown. Something like Winston's Hat! And, with this block shape, I have the best chance of getting the pork pie lines. Without a doubt, that could perhaps be an HJ Winston is wearing. I'll make a Winston block, too small for me, and see what I get. It's actually not hugely different than what we usually get. I seem to remember 3 or 4 guys RAVING about hats blocked on coffee cans around here

[binkmeisterRick]

He never got back to my question about whether hats ever got telescope crowns, but I think that was implied- "We always called that a pork pie crown as opposed to the puddled crown...."

His whole quote was:

We always called that a pork pie crown as opposed to the 'puddled crown' which was a less severe version .

I don't think it was implied at all. He only responded to the picture of the pork pie you posted, but he never said anything other to imply that the Raiders hat ever had a pork pie bash, or was even a telescope crown. You said it yourself:

He never got back to my question about whether hats ever got telescope crowns...

I think you're putting words in his mouth a bit.

[3thoubucks]

There's a pork pie on the 1990 HJ catalog page. Not hard to believe they sold that style in 1980.

[3thoubucks]

Here's the Video, Here's my Fed 4 reblocked on a Winston 360 stovepipe block. http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3296819/9278103 I thought Winston's hat was a 360 stovepipe, but I needed to find a pic to be sure- I think the slight taper it has is due to being stretched a little on Winston's head. I used my Fed 4. I hadn't even bashed it since I got it, I was busy, but I did sand the crown thinner last month. I soaked the crown in a sink full of hot water with a little soap while almost filling the crown with the tap. Turned around and threw the contents into the bathtub after a few minutes. Barely got a drop on the brim, and soaked up any wetness creeping into the brim with a paper towel. Used long hose clamps to cinch it onto the block. After it dried, The crown height was 5 inches. I porkpied it for a day, this gave it more dome. Now it's just under 5 1/4. This was a size 58 Fed 4. I made a stovepipe hat before, but it had too much reverse taper everywhere. But considering how tight the Raiders hat was when Ford put it on on top of the Well of Souls and in the Waco plane, I figured making the hat small would make a stovepipe practical. So, this hat is blocked down to a sub size 57. The sweat is out of a Regular Fed 57, and I had to shorten it a quarter inch. I have to pull it on with 2 hands, but I still don't think it's as tight as Ford's. It has too much reverse taper in back, but that could be because the felt is stiffer than the Raiders hat. Also, the crown of the Raiders hat bulged over the top of the ribbon in back like a muffin top, which would diminish the taper and mine doesn't bulge. --- So, when I tried to pork pie it, I found I still couldn't get the upper pork pie line easily, and that was one reason I went for a stovepipe, but I noticed I already had it! It came from the corners on the top of the block! So, here you can see three rings on the crown. -----------I love this hat. .....38 New Bond Street is only 1.4 miles from No. 10 Downing Street. I think the Raiders hat might have used this block, maybe a little taller. Maybe a little tighter

[Indiana G]

that is an awesome profile 3thou......i love the reverse taper in the back!

[Fedora]

I always knew the Raiders hat was not very domey on the top. If anyone has the Stetson Book, check out the multitude of open crown hats worn during the period that the Poet was initially created at HJ. There are scores of open crown hats shown there, from an old catalog. It is easy to assume that the Poet was this style of hat, that was prevalent during that period. And all of those hats, the open crowned styled ones had little dome.

It has too much reverse taper in back, but that could be because the felt is stiffer than the Raiders hat.

Yeah, I have found that if the back is perfectly straight, and the radius of where the back becomes the dome is far up on the crown, when you put in the top crease, it kicks the back out, to get that reverse taper. A tapered back, will crease out perfectly straight, UNLESS there is too much taper there to begin with. In that case, the back will still show some taper, which some styles of hats had.

The so called reverse taper as seen in the Raiders fedora was a bulge, and as you said, a muffin top. This was due, IMO to the type of felt used in that particular hat, that is no longer used. One of my vintage HJs had that same type of felt. It just seems that gravity would cause the sides to bulge, and the felt was of such a nature to allow this to happen. That is a rare characteristic of felt, by the way. You don't see much that will actually do this. I have seen only one hat that would, and that was that vintage HJ that I used to own. So the SOC look, really will never be nailed, unless one has that sort of felt. It is part block shape, and part felt that enters into the equation. But this was only one hat in the film. The fresher HJs did not bulge. Probably due to the sizing that was still in the hats. But that is a guess. Fedora

[Kokopelli]

wow. I'm usually not as obsessed with fedora SA as a lot of you guys are, but I gotta say, you're stovepipe reblock looks right on the mark! I definitely think you've got something going there.

[GCR]

Nice work, 3thou...this new blockshape / theory looks pretty promising. That profile is amazing.

[kiltie]

I tend to think the explainations for "the" Raiders' hat tend to fall somewhere between the obsession and something more simple ( recreating an accident ). In any event, this is a handsome hat 3thou, and regardless of the theory's place in the "mythology", it's cool to see it applied. Good lookin' hat.

[Marcus Brody]

I don't think there's any reason to believe the Raiders hat was blocked on anything other than a fedora block. It just so happens that the bowler/derby has a relatively little dome and is non-tapered, thus making it ideal for achieving the Raiders look, but there are fedora blocks that fit that bill. Also, as Fedora noted, the lack of taper on the back and front does create a little too much back and forth reverse taper, because it over anticipates the crease. At least a couple of my vintage hats have blocks that work great for making an Indy hat, and the secret is less dome and untapered sides, but all of them at least have some taper on the back and front. Man, The Stetson Whippet actually makes a great Indy hat because it's block fits the bill and it's a really soft hat, same deal with my Dobbs 15. If someone reverse engineered the blocks for those and got the right kind of soft felt, they would have the right components.

Besides, if you wanna know what the block shape looked like, the scene with the Nazi in Raiders wearing the open crown gray Poet should be enough. It had little dome. Hats with lots of dome like the original Fed look silly worn open crowned.

[3thoubucks]

I was going to post video of Ford putting the hat on, and was queing the Waco scene tonight. Just before it, is this scene, rehearsing the "Trust me" scene. The scene lasts exactly as long as it takes Deborah to say behind it "I had to have a hat that if you saw it in silhouette, would instantly be recognizeable" .... Looks like I don't have too much backtilt! The viewing angle is critical to notice it, I guess that angle just doesn't present it's self much in Elstree shots.

[gabrielle]

Ok I give up! What does it mean to porkpie a hat? And how does this make it look like telescopic lines?

[conceited_ape]

You're no crackpot, 3thou, I'll give ya that. The reason most of us even know about the 'Raiders Turn' is your doing, and you backed that up very, very well. I'm not immediately sold on this but I do like where your thought is headed so you've earned my attention.

[eazybox]

Ok I give up! What does it mean to porkpie a hat? And how does this make it look like telescopic lines?

To "porkpie" a hat means to shape the crown like a porkpie. That refers to the style of hat, which has a short stovepipe style crease called a telescope because of the way the top of the crown is folded in on itself. Think of Gene Hackman as Popeye Doyle in "The French Connection"-- he wore a porkpie.

When you restyle a porkpie wiith a fedora bash, the telescope crease is pushed up, leaving telltale lines that encircle the crown.

Jack

[Fedora]

Looks like I don't have too much backtilt!

Sorry man, but I still see that bulging instead of a true backtilt. If you start a line at the bottom of the ribbon, and extend it upwards, this becomes more obvious. The back of the hat moves in at the top half of the ribbon, and then moves out above it. A true back tilt from a straight back, would start at the bottom of the ribbon and slant rearward all the way up the hat. The pic you posted does not show this. But, only my opinion.

Besides, if you wanna know what the block shape looked like, the scene with the Nazi in Raiders wearing the open crown gray Poet should be enough. It had little dome. Hats with lots of dome like the original Fed look silly worn open crowned.

I agree. With little crease in the top, this shows what the Raiders fedora looked like, almost uncreased on the top. Here is is again.




And this is what one of my vintage HJs looked like from the side. Notice there is some taper in the block, but not near as much as what you see on the motorcycle chase scene in TLC that clearly shows the current Hj side profile that has more taper on the front and back. The degree of taper varies on all blocks. Some have more, some have practically none, but it is still there. This vintage Poet has only a very little, which would definetely give it true reverse taper if sat on its brim, and if the felt was soft. Like that pic we have seen of the Raiders hat sitting by itself in the plane scenes. That pic clearly shows true reverse taper, which indicates the back of the hat was straighter rather than more tapered.



This was an old Poet, by the way. But not the sable color.

I don't think there's any reason to believe the Raiders hat was blocked on anything other than a fedora block.

You know, I highly doubt this was even a "fedora block". I think it was a block intended initially to be worn open crown. The Stetson Book has reprinted catalog pages of hats from the era of the creation of the Hj Poet. 90 per cent of the hats in the catalog were all different open crown blocks, and were worn open crown. I think the Poet was originally worn open crown. As the years passed, folks creased them as the creased hats became fashionable. Conjecture, but conjecture based upon historical facts.

I still enjoy this 3M$, even after all of these years. At least you are in the camp of thinking the Raiders block was straighter than what we see today coming out of HJ and the other UK. hatters. All of those hats are made by one factory in Spain. Fedora

[3thoubucks]

Call it tilt or bulge, I don't have too much of it. This "making of" shot is unusual because it is at Indy's eye level. Most shots in the Raven are at shoulder level or lower, and the brim hides the base of the crown. --Another thing about a true 360 stovepipe- it's the way to go to get the channel under the ribbon in the front dent just by tightening the ribbon. More on that later.

[Fedora]

Oh, that last pic you posted 3M$ sure looks like it is showing true reverse taper. Which of course comes from a straight, or almost straight back of the hat in the open crown state. It could still have a low amount of taper on the block, like the vintage HJ I showed from the side above and still lend that reverse taper in that last pic you posted. I think we agree more than we disagree. Fedora

[Fedora]

Here is that same vintage HJ from the front. I took this one AFTER I had changed out the ribbon and cut the brim. But, this is the stock block shape as recieved. And the blockshape I have been copying.






Definetely stove piped, but with a bit more dome than yours. Fedora

[3thoubucks]

Fedora, you, Marc and I got sensitive about 360 stovepipes a couple years back. ? We've all gone there instinctively. I stopped because, when the side view looked good, the front view was too reverse tapered. I guess that's why you and Marc abondoned it also. The Wildcard we never considered is a very tight fit, which means a smaller hat, which means a smaller crown circumfrence. I don't think the Cairo Grey could give you backtilt, like the Raiders hat, and the Raiders hat needs to have a little fuller block than a Poet.

[Fedora]

Fedora, you, Marc and I got sensitive about 360 stovepipes a couple years back. ? We've all gone there instinctively. I stopped because, when the side view looked good, the front view was too reverse tapered. I guess that's why you and Marc abondoned it also. The Wildcard we never considered is a very tight fit, which means a smaller hat, which means a smaller crown circumfrence. I don't think the Cairo Grey could give you backtilt, like the Raiders hat, and the Raiders hat needs to have a little fuller block

Yep, we ran into the same thing with the front and back being stovepiped. You just get this impression(the stove pipe look) when you watch not only the film, but the behind the scenes videos of the hat on Ford and the stuntman. Of course, we see hats that don't look quite that way as well....but I still say those HJs tapered from the heat, etc.

On the gray hat, that side shot looks more LCish to me, but unless it was creased like the brown hat, it is really hard to say it was not the same block. Photo angles sometime distort reality.

Personally, I am just glad you, me and Marc are seeing the same things when it comes to this fedora. I would love for you to get a Christy hat and give us your appraisel. I have seen some pics of the hat that look great. Others look like I expected it to look, i.e too tapered. Which makes me think it is a @#$% shoot when you order one. Some look like the current tapered HJ, some look to be rather straight, from the front. Just curious if you can pull off the nuances you are so familiar with this hat. I think the price is pretty cheap too, so very affordable. Fedora

[Marcus Brody]

That gray appears to have too much front back taper, but mostly due to how he's wearing it. He's got that thing pulled down really far down and it's definitely got some brim distortion as a result of turn. It shouldn't normally have that much taper.

The stove pipe look has too front back reverse taper but without the usual consequences in most hats including even maybe the Raiders hat. The larger degree of reverse taper seems to be a result of more side taper. The Raven bar in particular is a tapered hat, and the example given of a hat with more front back reverse taper is from the Raven bar scene. Even though the SoC look is the one most associated with reverse taper, the side view isn't exactly known for that.

[3thoubucks]

That gray appears to have too much front back taper, but mostly due to how he's wearing it. He's got that thing pulled down really far down and it's definitely got some brim distortion as a result of turn. It shouldn't normally have that much taper.

Exactly. It's a tight fit. The videos of Ford putting the hat on show that his fit is very tight. But it's not making his hat look tapered.

[Marcus Brody]

But what if this guy has a larger or more long oval head than Ford. The way it looks, he's getting a lot more brim distortion than Ford. Not to mention he's got it pulled down way more, just check out the profile shots. Doing that to any hat would make it taper. He also doesn't have a center crease. That leaves the possibility that Ford's hats were still not stovepiped 360.

I can't be 100% sure, but in general, most hats meant to be worn with a center crease seem to have front back taper.

Check out this homburg I have.


From the side it's pretty tapered, but from the front it's stove piped. If I were to have the hat tapered from the front view like in the Raven scenes it would be heavily reverse tapered from the side.

Despite it's heavy default taper from the side, with a crease it's hard to tell it was tapered open crowned.


In this example, the hat's profile is way more tapered than Steve's vintage HJ's profile. In other words, back tilt is even more likely.

[3thoubucks]

He also doesn't have a center crease.

Yeah, put a nice tight Raiders front pinch and a Raiders top bash in that Grey hat, the front view would be tapered too. ...(Friends, get a Winston 360 hat here- viewtopic.php?t=33266