... Horsehide Heebie-Jeebies....

mooniteman · Post by **mooniteman** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:11 pm

So heres an odd issue -

I love leather - I have two tooling sides sitting next to me and about 10 leather Jackets

BUT - when I first heard about the Horsehide Jackets - a little thing in my brain went - "Oh my God."

Perhaps it's just me - but does anyone else feel that is up there with dog and Cat Jackets?

lol

Look I'm not an animal activist or anything - I just feel weird about "horse"

Anyone else get the Heebie-Jeebies from Jackets made with Horse?

Cheers!
- AJ

(Keep the discussion light guys - I don't want this to turn into one of those annoying - Leather: Right or Wrong - conversations - savvy?)

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:14 pm

I once heard the only thing dumber than a horse was a smart cat.

PS - I love cats.

SpeedRcrX · Post by **SpeedRcrX** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:14 pm

No, it doesn't bother me since I eat horse steak

for me it's like rabbits or lamb...

Post by **Holt** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:15 pm

mooniteman · Post by **mooniteman** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:31 pm

Ha ha - you heartless, fedora wearing horse Eaters!

Honestly it doesn't faze me - but everytime I wore one of those Jackets I'd think of Mr. Ed

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:31 pm

Hindus would flip about making jackets out of cow.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:31 pm

Maybe you'd be wearing Mr. Ed's great grandson. I think that would be cool.

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:32 pm

I hear you, Mooniteman. I seriously considered getting a horsehide Wested when Peter ran out of the goat. I was fairly certain that horses weren't actually killed for their leather (-- yeah, I admit that's an issue for me). If a horse died and its hide was used for jackets etc., wearing its hide would in a way be honouring the animal, giving it dignity after its death, so to speak. So I was cool with that.

Then I admitted to myself that I was probably just telling myself what I wanted to hear. Coincidentally, Peter happened to come out with his goatskin once again, so I happily went with that.

At the end of the day, horsehide is just another animal leather, so I acknowledge somewhat of a double-standard on my part. I certainly wouldn't blame anyone for wanting one -- the jackets look fantastic.

SD

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:35 pm

Anyone use camel leather? I've eaten camel, why not wear one?

SpeedRcrX · Post by **SpeedRcrX** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:37 pm

Raider S wrote:Anyone use camel leather? I've eaten camel, why not wear one?

is it good ?

As for the Horse Eater, I like to eat it raw with an egg (un Tartare de Cheval) yummy !!

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:42 pm

Dolphin for me! (But only if they're inadvertently caught in tuna nets.)

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:44 pm

SpeedRcrX wrote: is it good ?

Why do you think I ask about using it for leather?

Actually camel is pretty good depending on how it's done - just like anything else. Young camels are best (kind of like veal) and some of the old ones are often eaten by poorer people.

I have quite a few photos of camel butchers (which I won't share). One nice shot of a camel head hanging from a hook with it's tounge sticking out is still in line for next years Christmas card. People like the cards I send...

Cole · Post by **Cole** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:46 pm

My favorite jacket is a horse hide jacket and I never felt bad about it and I love animals (not only as steak and such things

).

Post by **Holt** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:47 pm

all of a sudden I became very hungry while reading this thread...is this a jacket thread or am I at the Chef Ramsey's food forum?

Holt

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:51 pm

That makes me wonder..Is it possible to eat a leather jacket(say, if it was a choice between that or starving to death?),is there any nutrition in it?

BOINKFFD · Post by **BOINKFFD** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:59 pm

My coat is a HH nad I do not have a problem with it. I also have a bottle of Elmers Glue. Do they still use horses to make glue?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:18 pm

i wouldn't have a problem with it. my wife would as she loves horses. as far as i know, HH is a stiff leather that leans more to protection than fashion. i'd buy it for a motorcycle jacket but i don't think it would be my first choice for an indy jacket.

if i ever get a HH jacket, i'd have to keep it's animal origin on the down low.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:32 pm

SpeedRcrX wrote:
Raider S wrote:Anyone use camel leather? I've eaten camel, why not wear one?
is it good ?

As for the Horse Eater, I like to eat it raw with an egg (un Tartare de Cheval) yummy !!

Between you me and Indiana G we should set up the Adventurous Eating Club! LOL!

Piers · Post by **Piers** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:31 pm

or

=

just as

=

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:32 pm

Works for me!

Regards! Michaelson

Piers · Post by **Piers** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:33 pm

hopefully I didn't break all sorts of picture posting rules there

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:34 pm

Probably, but I'm too tired to check.

Regards! Michaelson

CM · Post by CM » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:36 pm

Thats a point very well made, Piers.

AJ - HH is a well known and very well used leather. Perhaps it's just that you've lived a closeted life. By the way - horse sausages are delcicious.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:48 pm

nice work piers.....i think the kangaroo is more for our bullwhips though

you can add calfskin to our slaughter list as that is what the alden 405's are made from.

i'm gonna show this thread to my oldest so she knows what fluffy animals get chopped up to make indy g look so good

if we had a vegan mod, this thread would have been locked down looooooong ago

scot2525 · Post by **scot2525** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:16 pm

Indiana G wrote:nice work piers.....i think the kangaroo is more for our bullwhips though

you can add calfskin to our slaughter list as that is what the alden 405's are made from.

i'm gonna show this thread to my oldest so she knows what fluffy animals get chopped up to make indy g look so good

if we had a vegan mod, this thread would have been locked down looooooong ago

LOL

The only reason I would stay away from HH is because of how stiff it is, I think I would feel like I was wearing "body armor".

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:33 pm

If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them all of meat.

I'm sure the horses were old and died of natural causes, quietly, in their sleep.

When the farmers hear the "whuummmmmp!" in the night, they know it's time to call Tandy.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:41 pm

That WOULD explain why the leather is all wrinkly...

Piers · Post by **Piers** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:48 pm

Indiana G wrote:nice work piers.....i think the kangaroo is more for our bullwhips though

It's not unheard of tho, I figured as it's tougher than goat and probably horse, it's only a matter of time on getting the leather to a popular manufacturer

http://www.harpersraceshop.co.uk/item2891.htm

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:01 pm

My tofu jacket absorbs too much water. Even pecards doesn't work.

Cowboy · Post by **Cowboy** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:07 pm

there has been more than a few broncs ( and a mule named custer) in my days that I wished had been turned into a jacket......guess the rough stock suppliers (who encouraged their behavior) figured different. I still say that no hammer-head horse could ever be worth over a qtr million......period. I would wear one in a heart beat. BTW......I just put a mare down two weeks ago......

Road Warrior · Post by **Road Warrior** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:08 pm

Horsehide was a hugely popular jacket material in the US from the 30's through 50's when millions of horses were replaced by tractors and cars. World War II era A2 jackets were specified to be made of horsehide, and vintage specimens can fetch thousands. They were also made into biker jackets by legendary manufacturers such as Buco and Schott. Horsehide is known for toughness, water resistance (without treatment), and a unique grain and patina. It's unlike any other leather.

Since the late 50's in the US, it's been required that horsehide leather comes only from "natural death" horses, not from slaughter. I don't know who would enforce such a law, but that's what it is. That being the case, there are very few tanneries that even bother with it. I understand that Horween in Chicago is one of the last (maybe THE last) horsehide leather tannery in the US. Not so in much of the rest of the world, where horses are still considered livestock like a cow or a goat. I've eaten horsemeat sashimi in Japan a couple of times, but mostly because I was being a polite dinner guest. It tastes pretty much like the sauce you dip it in. Some Japanese call it "new beef".

I own two Aero front quarter horsehide jackets. They start at about 800 bucks, but they're a bargain at that price. Unbelievable quality and workmanship -- truly a lifetime purchase. Front quarter horse is stiff and requires a real commitment from the wearer to break it in. If you like lamb and goatskin jackets, then FQHH might not be for you. But when you break one in, the jacket is YOURS, and conforms to your body.

When I recently ordered my Wested Raiders in horse (my first Indy jacket), I was really surprised that they didn't have an upcharge for the horsehide. Most jacket manufacturers charge a 15 to 20 percent premium. The Wested leather is not front quarter, and feels like about 2 to 2.5 oz. Not wimpy, but not like the 4 oz. FQHH in an Aero. But, the Wested will be a breeze to break-in, so that's fine.

I've received many compliments on my Aero's, and I never worry about telling somebody that they're made of horsehide. They even have a label inside that says so. I think it honors the horse. Nobody has ever said anything derogatory to me about it yet (like I would care if they did!)

I'm enclosing a couple of photos of my Aero's. Note the grain on the sleeve of the black jacket. That was only after a couple of months, and the jacket is about 2 years old now. Just keeps getting cooler and cooler. It's styled after a 50's utility jacket. There's also my long half belt, which is a 40's style. And of course, there's my brand-new Wested, but with temps in the 90's it's not getting much wear yet.

Horsehide, baby!

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bobjones · Post by **bobjones** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:12 pm

I went up to some mounted police in my city recently, who were sitting on some very fine equine speciments - I am sure Aero and Lost Worlds would have been drooling over both - and said to the police that they would have made outstanding jackets.

Some cops have laughed, some younger ones looked at me strangely, until I explain what I was talking about.

It seems that only the older cops knew that even their jackets were once made of HH.

IMHO, a G&B goat is an awesome jacket, but a FQHH is simply, unbeatable.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:24 pm

Piers wrote:
Indiana G wrote:nice work piers.....i think the kangaroo is more for our bullwhips though
It's not unheard of tho, I figured as it's tougher than goat and probably horse, it's only a matter of time on getting the leather to a popular manufacturer

http://www.harpersraceshop.co.uk/item2891.htm

gi canuck has a roo us-wings indy. wings did offer these for a while but sadly, no longer.

i'm told that the underlying hide is very dark (almost black).....thats what the story was from those taking some sandpaper to it.

JimL · Post by **JimL** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:40 pm

I love horse hide (and horse steak is pretty good too- I've had it several times in Switzerland). it is really the best leather for a jacket, when you have only one in your life time.

Front Quarter Horse Hide is by far the best 'cut' of the best animal for a jacket. (Schott leather is tanned and imported from Italy)

I agree it is not right for an Indy jacket, but it is outstanding for a moto jacket.

If you are REALLY bored some time, check the blog at Schott. There are several real life testimonials of those unfortunate guys who have gone down with Schott HH jackets on (pictures of mine new too- look for "Bubba Zenetti" as a user name). Many of those guys still use that SAME jacket even after the road rashing. I was always leaning toward the traditional Horse leather (more for nostalgia), but reading those stories really sealed the deal for me... Pound for pound, you can't beat it for protection, and that is the primary goal of leather on the bike. The Indy jacket is to protect me from rain, wind and thorns, but not 65 MPH pavement with pebbles and broken glass on it...

The Schott HH jacket is not cheap; however I figure it is MUCH cheaper than skin grafts...

Chewie Louie · Post by **Chewie Louie** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:13 am

Anybody catch HBO's Real Sports segment on what they do to race horses when they can no longer compete? Pretty sad and despicable stuff going on. I'm not a card carrying member of PETA. I love steak and I love my leather goods; however, there has to be a humane way of doing things. What is being done to horses is pretty sad.

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2008/05/064.shtml

mooniteman · Post by **mooniteman** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:40 am

I'll admit t after reading all the posts I really want a steak...

but not horse...

And I love the beaver and rabbit pics above the fedora - hilarious!

Vegeta · Post by **Vegeta** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:43 am

I've been a hunter my whole life...Wacked a hog with my bow 2 weeks ago...I have no problem killin' and grillin', so naturally horse hide doesn't bother me.

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:36 am

Road Warrior wrote:They even have a label inside that says so. I think it honors the horse.

LOL. I never looked at it that way. My FQHH has an alpaca lining (and also has a picture of an alpaca). I practically have a shrine to the animal kingdom on the labels of my Highwayman.

What people who are unfamiliar with the Aero 4 ounce FQHH may not realize - and I have tried to stress this over the years - is that even a stiff heavy horsehide like the Aero can be broken in very nicely. Mine is practically as soft as flannel. It has been wet and dried too many times to count and oiled after each time. I may make a short movie sometimes to show folks how it drapes. You will not believe you are looking at a FQHH, trust me. I would give my right 'you know what' to see this leather used for an Indiana Jones jacket. It may not be screen accurate, but it would be one awesome jacket that is built like a tank.

I love horsehide and I am looking for a pillow that is made from FQHH and has that new leather smell. Then life would be perfect.

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:03 am

Piers · Post by **Piers** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:00 am

Vegeta wrote:Wacked a hog with my bow 2 weeks ago...

wouldn't it be easier to shoot it with an arrow, as opposed to clubbing it with your bow?

jk

JimL · Post by **JimL** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:09 am

Piers wrote:wouldn't it be easier to shoot it with an arrow, as opposed to clubbing it with your bow?

...that depends greatly on how good a shot you are (as well as how many arrows you have left). You gotta do wat ya gotta do!

(also, J/K)

Vegeta · Post by **Vegeta** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:48 pm

Funny you mention that!! That hog is a rusult of my first miss!!! I've bow hunted for years and have never ever missed! EVER!!! But before I took this porkchop I missed a bigger hog at 40 yards!!! I was shocked!!! Then this beauty showed up and I got a 25 yard shot on her and now I have a full freezer!!

HDRnR · Post by **HDRnR** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:14 pm

Prior to the 1960's most leather work jackets were made from horse. I think wearing its hide honors the mighty beast.

JimL · Post by **JimL** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:05 am

Horse is the best- hands down...

Is it the best for an Indy jacket? It is if you plan to be (all but) dragged by a truck. If you want the screen-accurate look, Lamb, and possibly Goat) are the only choices.

Tron7960 · Post by **Tron7960** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:56 pm

Have one HH jacket and love it.

No heebie jeebies here.

bobjones · Post by **bobjones** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:03 pm

J!m wrote:Horse is the best- hands down...

Is it the best for an Indy jacket? It is if you plan to be (all but) dragged by a truck. If you want the screen-accurate look, Lamb, and possibly Goat) are the only choices.

Agreed, unless maybe you go with a really thin HH, like maybe 2-3 oz.

michaeljcr · Post by **michaeljcr** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:34 pm

According to the Aero website, the horsehide they use is sourced from a US tannery that only uses hides from animals that have died naturally - mainly because it's illegal in the USA to do it any other way. I imagine leather sourced from other countries isn't as animal friendly. So, if you're feeling weird about the HH, go with Aero and sleep easy! Now if only they did an Indy jacket....

Road Warrior · Post by **Road Warrior** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:02 pm

I know that horsehide can bring out strong feelings in people more than others. As mentioned previously (including by me), horsehide in the US must be sourced from "natural death" horses, but I somehow doubt that the law is stringently enforced. How could it be? Who certifies the death was "natural"? Does euthanasia of a terminally sick or injured horse count as a "natural" death? Seems to me to be a BIG potential gray area.

We have the law in the US to appease animal lovers. You can be sure that the cows, goats, sheep, etc., that are slaughtered here don't get put to a gentle, restful slumber when it's their time, and they get made into jackets with no qualms by the some of the same people who are outraged by even using horsehide for a jacket. Please.

I'm for humane slaughter, wherever it happens, and for whatever is on the receiving end.

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:25 am

michaeljcr wrote:According to the Aero website, the horsehide they use is sourced from a US tannery that only uses hides from animals that have died naturally

It is natural to die once you are shot in the head with a bullet, right?

Road Warrior wrote:As mentioned previously, horsehide in the US must be sourced from "natural death" horses, but I somehow doubt that the law is stringently enforced. How could it be? Who certifies the death was "natural"? Does euthanasia of a terminally sick or injured horse count as a "natural" death? Seems to me to be a BIG potential gray area.

Since life is basically a terminal illness, one could argue that any killing of a horse is in fact euthanasia.

On a serious note, I cannot find any indication of what a current "natural death" law might entail. Maybe horses cannot be slaughtered specifically for their hides? We have a bunch of lawyers who read these posts - maybe they can clarify?

I think there is a loophole because although we (supposedly) cannot unconditionally slaughter horses in the US and we are prevented from shipping horses overseas for slaughter (U.S. Code Title 15; Chapter 44; Section 1824) our horses are still finding their way to Mexica and Canada by the thousands each year for slaughter.

I may take mental leap and guess where the tanneries are getting the hides from? Any bets that some are coming from Canada or Mexico?

In fact, the US is still trying to pass laws to prevent the slaughter of horses for food. While it might be illegal to slaughter horses in the US, the House Of Representatives most recently intiated HR 857 - the American Horse Slaughter Prohibition Bill. This passes and went to Senate (S 311) where they failed to act before the end of 109th Congress, so as far as I know this "law" does not exist.

Bush went and signed the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2005, which seems like a death sentence to wild horses and burros. Section 119 gives the Secretary of the Interior the right to contract helicopters and motor vehicles to capture and transport wild horses and burros. Section 142 states that animals can be sold if they are greater than 10 years old or have been offered for adoption at least 3 times.

The last 3 US horse slaughterhouses were shut down in September 2007, but as recently as this year (2008), South Dakota was making attempts to open a horse slaughterhouse (via S.B. 170 - a bill that would give a state-funded loan of up to $1 million to anyone wishing to construct and open a horse slaughtering facility in the state.).

I would not be naive enough to give creedence to horsehide being acquired from horses dying of "natural causes."

JimL · Post by **JimL** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:32 am

For many years, the noble horse was our tractor in the US, as well as our transportation method. Once the car and mechanised tractor came to be (adding to our pollution, but working longer and travelling faster) the horse was used more for recreation than work and main transport.

Horses were injured doing this hard work, and many had to be put down for it. Those horses continued to serve man, with their hides, long after they could not do physical work for us.

If I personally had a farm, with horses, and one died, or had to be put down, I think it would be fitting to have that horse's hide utilized for protective cloting for me. If the horse was branded, having the brand over my heart would be the right place for it I think...

... Horsehide Heebie-Jeebies....

... Horsehide Heebie-Jeebies....

What's the diff? They're all animals.. and now I'M hungry!