`The Turn`

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:39 pm

ok what is mean to happen exactly when the hat is placed on the head and turned to the right? i have tried this countless times now with my fed IV and iv noticed no difference in brim shape at all. i even gave my hat to my dad (same hat size but different sort of head shape) and got him to turn it and there still wasnt any diference.
so what is the turn meant to achive exactly? i put the hat on my head,grab the front of the brim and turn it to the right...and?

iv also noticed that the little swoop you are surposed to get on the side where the bow is, is on the oppisite side on my hat!

gabrielle · Post by **gabrielle** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:50 pm

The swoop is on the non bow side...

And the swoop is a direct effect of the turn...

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:03 pm

There is more to "the turn" than just putting a hat on your head, grabbing the brim and turning it slightly to the right.

You start with an open crown hat or take the bash out of a previously bashed hat. You then turn the hat on your head to the right, enough to cause the brim to warp. You then bash the hat on center from that point. The hat is then worn off center and bashed on center. I wouldn't suggest using the turn except on a quality hat that will mold itself to your head while being worn off center. Using the turn with some lower quality or stiffer fedoras may cause some discomfort or strange feelings while wearing a hat off center.

I suggest that you do a search for the turn if you are contemplating using it. There is a ton of information on this site about it.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:15 pm

Can you post some pics of your attempt?

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:19 pm

BendingOak wrote:Can you post some pics of your attempt?

yeah sure

gabrielle · Post by **gabrielle** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:28 pm

Did you bash it 1st or turn it open crown then bash it? You should turn the hat open crown then apply the bash. When you put the hat on with the pinch in the middle of your forehead the turn will then cause the nice brim swoop!

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:44 pm

gabrielle wrote:Did you bash it 1st or turn it open crown then bash it? You should turn the hat open crown then apply the bash. When you put the hat on with the pinch in the middle of your forehead the turn will then cause the nice brim swoop!

nope i turned it first i followed the raiders style bash i found online. i didnt want to bash the hat until i knew it fit correctly once it did i then tried the turn

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:58 pm

Seeing the hat without wearing it will almost never show the turn. The brim could be completely flat while lying on the table but ounce put on you get the turn. You can tell the best from the front like the pick post here of Indy.

The right way to bash your hat is to put the hat on (open crown) grab the front of the brim and turn it to the none bow side. When you get the brim looking like it should ( like the pick of Indy above). Then put in the center dent and then you can start doing the rest.

I agree with buff that it will work best with a softer hat. Doesn't have to be floppy but not cowboy stiff.

Stand in front of the mirror and try turning the hat a 1/4, 1/2 inch then take your pic. A front shot of you wearing the hat will help.

taking another look at your pics and I can tell you didn't turn the hat at all before bashing it. the ribbon didn't move forward.

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:34 pm

the hat was turned not once but twice before i bashed it as per the raiders style intructions.

heres the hat before the turn

during the turn

and then after

the pinch is slightly off centre as i wanted it that way

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:39 pm

I see where the problem is. The turn goes in before you bash the hat because you leave it turned. You don't turn the hat and then bring it back to center. The hat is bashed off center.

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:44 pm

Well you're not supposed to turn it, then turn it back again and then bash it.
In that second pic, if you'd added the bash at that point so that the front crease was in line with your nose - even while the hat is turned - you could have pushed the brim down a little at the front and it probably would have been spot on. Sometimes you have to pay a little with the brim to help it adapt to the new position.

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:49 pm

ah well i turned it then bashed it...nevermind...anything i can do to save it?

gabrielle · Post by **gabrielle** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:50 pm

You are confused my friend, listen...

All you did was bash the hat, turn it, then turn it back!!!

What you do is put the hat on your head open crown in front of a mirror. Then you turn it to the non bow side, or right, until you get the swoop you want. Then you leave it there!!!!!!!!!!! And make a center dent with the hat still turned on your head. Then you can work on the pinch and side dents. Once you turn the hat though you leave it turned and make that initial center dent while turned on your head. The rest you can do by taking the hat off and working the pinch/side dents from that center dent you created while wearing the hat.

I hope you understand what I'm saying, just trying to help you out!!!

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:52 pm

whiskyman wrote:Well you're not supposed to turn it, then turn it back again and then bash it.
In that second pic, if you'd added the bash at that point so that the front crease was in line with your nose - even while the hat is turned - you could have pushed the brim down a little at the front and it probably would have been spot on. Sometimes you have to pay a little with the brim to help it adapt to the new position.

but was the raiders front crease slightly off centre?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:53 pm

gabrielle · Post by **gabrielle** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:56 pm

Yes it was, that's why Harrison turned the hat to begin with, so the pinch was in the center but the turning caused the brim swoop!

His Raider hat was bashed off center so to get the pinch in front he turned the hat about a 1/4" - 1/2" right. This causes the brim to swoop like you want. But you need to bash the hat off center and then put it on and with the pinch centered...abbra kadabbra....SWOOP!!!!!!!!!!!

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:58 pm

gabrielle wrote:You are confused my friend, listen...

All you did was bash the hat, turn it, then turn it back!!!

What you do is put the hat on your head open crown in front of a mirror. Then you turn it to the non bow side, or right, until you get the swoop you want. Then you leave it there!!!!!!!!!!! And make a center dent with the hat still turned on your head. Then you can work on the pinch and side dents. Once you turn the hat though you leave it turned and make that initial center dent while turned on your head. The rest you can do by taking the hat off and working the pinch/side dents from that center dent you created while wearing the hat.

I hope you understand what I'm saying, just trying to help you out!!!

oh yes i understand that

what iam saying is that its really having no effect on the brim...it just looks the same afterwards.
i dont think i could change the pinch now as its quick a tight one

thank you kindly for your help

gabrielle · Post by **gabrielle** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:08 pm

But you are wrong my friend. Look at the photo marked "during the turn", the second of three you posted. The swoop is there!!!! You should have done that open crown and then put the dent in while turned. Then added the pinch and side dents. In the second photo you can most definitely see the swoop on the side opposite the ribbon. If you had bashed it like that on your head you would have a nice swoop...

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:28 pm

i see now!!!

ah well cant really change it now as the pinch thats already in is quite tight. il have to gether another hat at some point

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:43 pm

Didn't 3 Thousn' (I think that is the correct person), make a video somewhere about "The Turn"?

Michaelb

Marcus Brody · Post by **Marcus Brody** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:54 pm

Actually there's also a good possibility that the turn won't work correctly for your head. Depending on how narrow or wide your head is, the turn is either easier or harder to achieve accordingly. For example, I can't achieve the correct results of the turn unless I turn it significantly (liked 45 degrees) more than the actual Raiders hats were turned, and by then I'd need to change the ribbon around.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:06 pm

the turn did work for him, he got confused and turn it back before bashing it.

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:20 pm

correct i was confused. i thought you turned the hat to shape the brim and then bring it back to the front position. it never said antyhing about keeping the hat turned and bashing from there. it didnt look or feel right anyway so perhaps it was for the best

, im just going to leave the hat as is. the instructions i read said nothing about turning the hat leaving it there and then bashing it though. at least this way the hat feels comfortable and i can wear it with no problems

it might not have the swoop i wanted but theres a little bit there

the front of the brim swoops down quite nicely i just dont have much at the sides.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:28 pm

Don't give up, it is possible to get a very pronounced swoop by turning.

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:48 pm

really? how is it done?, the pinch i have on my hat is quite tight so when i pop the dents out you can still see the pinch really

.

thanks everyone by the way

gabrielle · Post by **gabrielle** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:57 pm

Before I became enamored of the turn I bought a Jimmy Pierce rabbit in Raven Bar style. Once I bought my HJ from a member here that was turned and I fell in love with the swoop I decided to work on my JPD. Although it's not turned I keep working the brim by holding it down over my right eye with my left hand and pushing up on the brim from underneath almost above my right ear until the brim touches the crown. It's starting to get a little swoop there now, though not nearly as pronounced as on my HJ with turn...it's still got a bit of a swoop going on.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:22 pm

Kt!!! The Wire was hungry!!!!

Post by **Holt** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:25 pm

!!!!!

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:26 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:Kt!!! The Wire was hungry!!!!

Nope, no wire... but it did feel like someone turned out all the lights.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:10 pm

As long as you only have one shadow, my friend.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:48 pm

morethanatimelord wrote:correct i was confused. i thought you turned the hat to shape the brim and then bring it back to the front position. it never said antyhing about keeping the hat turned and bashing from there. it didnt look or feel right anyway so perhaps it was for the best , im just going to leave the hat as is. the instructions i read said nothing about turning the hat leaving it there and then bashing it though. at least this way the hat feels comfortable and i can wear it with no problems it might not have the swoop i wanted but theres a little bit there
the front of the brim swoops down quite nicely i just dont have much at the sides.

I guess you just didn't understand me back at the beginning of this thread.

You start with an open crown hat or take the bash out of a previously bashed hat. You then turn the hat on your head to the right, enough to cause the brim to warp. You then bash the hat on center from that point. The hat is then worn off center and bashed on center. I wouldn't suggest using the turn except on a quality hat that will mold itself to your head while being worn off center. Using the turn with some lower quality or stiffer fedoras may cause some discomfort or strange feelings while wearing a hat off center.

But, now that you understand "the turn", I am sure you can understand why I said you would only want to wear a hat "turned" that was a soft, high quality hat. Some hats are very stiff and it would feel very weird and may even be uncomfortable to wear "turned". I personally would never wear a hat that felt lopsided on my head. It would drive me crazy. (some say I already am, but that's not true)

An AB is not the only hat that can be turned, but I have more of them than any other fedora. I have two ABs that are turned. The AB is such a high quality felt, that you absolutely cannot tell that the hat is turned while you are wearing it. I know that is hard to believe, but it is true. It feels like it is fitting your head perfectly, but it is sitting up there cockeyed, but feeling like it is perfectly symetrical and properly placed on your head. It is because the felt on that hat is so wonderful, it just molds itself to your head. Even though it doesn't feel like it is turned, it is, and it is causing the brim to distort and swoop. A cheaper quality hat would most likely give me a head ache with the turn. (Actually, I have never had a headache so far in my life. I have known people that I thought were headaches, but I have never actually had one.)

gabrielle · Post by **gabrielle** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:52 pm

My HJ made by Marc Kitter is also turned and it's so soft and floppy it also molds to my head. You just can't tell it's being worn turned, it conforms like gel to my head. I love it. And now I really am drooling for my AB if it feels the same way and it's beaver!!! My HJ is rabbit...

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:03 pm

morethanatimelord wrote:it didnt look or feel right anyway so perhaps it was for the best , im just going to leave the hat as is. the instructions i read said nothing about turning the hat leaving it there and then bashing it though. at least this way the hat feels comfortable and i can wear it with no problems it might not have the swoop i wanted but theres a little bit there
the front of the brim swoops down quite nicely i just dont have much at the sides.

If that particular hat didn't look or feel right when it was on your head and it was turned, you are probably better off this way. You would have never been happy with it because of the way it felt. You can still have a very nice looking Indy fedora without the turn. If it felt bad on your head, you probably would never wear it. What would be the point of that? Having a really swoopy hat that you would never wear.

I was very skeptical and very leery of turning my first AB. Steve told me that I would never be able to tell. I trust Steve, but I must admit that I found it hard to believe. I felt like Indy taking a leap from the Lion's head. It was a leap of faith. Dang, if Steve wasn't telling me the truth. And now, I am telling it to you.

Kentucky Blues · Post by **Kentucky Blues** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:09 pm

You may still be able to pull off a turn, morethanatimelord. I know the tight pinch makes it so that you can't pop out the dents without not seeing the crease, which ultimately prevents you from doing a different shape in the same spot. BUT once you turn the hat, you'll have a new "canvas" to bash on, because you won't be putting it back in the same place.
Here's what you should do:
1. Pop the dents out (even the top center dent)
2. Put the hat on, and turn it to where you want it.
3. Use your finger to mark where the new front is, and take the hat off.
4. Using your finger as a guide, put in a new center dent, and then put in a LOOSE pinch at the new front of the hat, which should cause the old pinch to be dented in.
5. See how it looks. If you like it, go ahead and tighten the pinch to your liking. If the old pinch shows too much, don't tighten the new one, and just be happy with your old pinch on an unturned hat

If you still don't feel ready to do this, just give me a few minutes, as I'm about to take pictures of my old fed deluxe to illustrate what I mean

-KB

Kentucky Blues · Post by **Kentucky Blues** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:25 pm

Okay, this isn't perfect, because I have holes in my pretty much permanent pinch. Hopefully you can still see what I'm getting at.

The hat as it started out

the hat with the dents popped out

the "open" hat turned

turned with a loose pinch put it

the pinch tightened

-KB

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:53 am

Kentucky Blues wrote:You may still be able to pull off a turn, morethanatimelord. I know the tight pinch makes it so that you can't pop out the dents without not seeing the crease, which ultimately prevents you from doing a different shape in the same spot. BUT once you turn the hat, you'll have a new "canvas" to bash on, because you won't be putting it back in the same place.
Here's what you should do:
1. Pop the dents out (even the top center dent)
2. Put the hat on, and turn it to where you want it.
3. Use your finger to mark where the new front is, and take the hat off.
4. Using your finger as a guide, put in a new center dent, and then put in a LOOSE pinch at the new front of the hat, which should cause the old pinch to be dented in.
5. See how it looks. If you like it, go ahead and tighten the pinch to your liking. If the old pinch shows too much, don't tighten the new one, and just be happy with your old pinch on an unturned hat

If you still don't feel ready to do this, just give me a few minutes, as I'm about to take pictures of my old fed deluxe to illustrate what I mean

-KB

thank you everyone for the interesting tips i shall see how it goes. iam tempted to turn the hat correctly as i really do want that classic indy swoop. however i think it would turn me crazy if the hat didnt feel right on my head

it appears iam on the horns of a dilemma and its abit sore

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:26 am

i do get a little bit of shape when i put the snap back brim down at the back

Jones Boy · Post by **Jones Boy** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:27 am

I posted this in another thread although it is applicable here. In the photos of Raiders (see thread below), Indy's had is obviously stretched lengthways and this distorts his hat and brim even more. This distortion is more obvious in the second photo (SOC) - check this thread

viewtopic.php?t=18189

For what it is worth, the swoop is possible on the Fed - see my pic below - although on the head it stretches and looks much better.

Cheers
Jonesy

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:01 pm

the Indy swoop is very possible on a fed. I won't show up while laying down on a table or anyplace very well like it does when wear it.

morethanatimelord,

question for you. Are you talking about the curl of the back of the brim that goes all the way around the hat. The reason I ask is I don't think we are on the same page .

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:58 pm

Jones Boy: yeah i have started streching my hat lengthways ihavent noticed much change yet though

bendingoak: yeah thats what i mean

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:57 pm

that's not the turn/swoop. I think your talking about the flange curl.

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:02 pm

well whatever its called it gives the hat a nice look

it looks (when viewed from the angle of which i took the picture) as though the brim is going over my ear rather than just being flat and straight

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:07 pm

There is a big diference between the two. The flange curl is put into the hat by the hat maker. The swoop is done by turning the hat and bashing off center.

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:13 pm

oh i agree, however we have already established that i didnt bash the hat off centre or correctly manage the turn. what iam trying to discover now is, is the swoop or even somthing that resembles the swoop possible without doing the turn?

i simply mentioned that by putting the brim down at the back gives the hat a different shape

Indiana Venkman · Post by **Indiana Venkman** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:06 pm

Methinks you are confused, morethanatimelord.

JimL · Post by **JimL** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:10 pm

This was good for me; I wasn't fully understanding what the turn was either.

After reading through this, now I know...

Now all I need is a hat...

MustangLoverMex · Post by **MustangLoverMex** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:44 pm

Me too!

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:47 am

Indiana Venkman wrote:Methinks you are confused, morethanatimelord.

hmmm...yes because its all very simple to someone who hasnt bashed or turned a hat before...thanks for your unhelpful contribution to my confusion

webhead73: it may have been covered here before but iam certainly not going to trawl through loads of old threads to search for any reference to the turn. this is the trouble i have had with this site since i joined, practically everyone here is an expert in bashing,shaping or even making hats and some people (and i use some very loosely) do come across as partonising however alot of people do genuinely want to help. this thread has clearly been of help to myself for realising my mistake with the turn and to j!m as he wasnt clued up on the turn either.

a big thanks to

bendingoak
Kentucky Blues
Bufflehead Jones
gabrielle
Kt Templar

all of who have actually been very helpful indeed, thank you

not all of us are expert hat bashers or makers. novices like myself dont know all the terminology linked to hat bashing etc

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:02 am

send me a PM and maybe we can talk on the phone clear things up.

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:54 am

webhead73:

no a joke is when 2 people laugh im not doing that so the joke appears to be on me.

so theres a problem with new members is there? would you rather have no new members at all? i think you will find the problem is not with new members

i certainly could not see any thread that exclusively dealt with the turn method. i mean completely covering the terminology that goes with bashing a hat into an indy style. its not a new members fault that he doesnt know all this and the best way to find out is to learn about it from threads like this from more experienced members and not to be given very unhelpful posts telling me im confused? how does that help?

i agree with you totally that threads like this one should be pinned to the top of the board so that new members who wish to bash a hat can learn quickly an easily without having to trawl through endles threads about comparing and AB to a FED IV or AB waiting times etc etc

theres really no need to tell me to take it easy im fine thanks

i just wanted this thread to be helpful and not to be used as a well of unhelpful comments