Official Factory Produced KotCS AdventureBilt Fedora (Henry)

Bullitt · Post by **Bullitt** » Fri May 16, 2008 8:02 am

Ah, beat me to it, Marc

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Fri May 16, 2008 8:25 am

Cool, Thanks Marc!

Just some follow up questions if you don't mind. And I don't mean to sound like I'm being insulting or anything just so you know, just trying to understand.

Time will tell. Going by where Steve and I sell most hats it'll be in the US.

Cool, I have to ask then, what is the reason for offering these hats out of Germany (I'm just assuming this)? I understand that you tried to get the hat made in the U.S. and it fell through, but would it perhaps make more sense to continue looking for a U.S. based company if the weak dollar is driving up the price?

Ex stock. So let's say 2-3 weeks max.

That sound good!

A class of it's own Laughing No kidding asside. This is meant to be a really good hat that will hold up for many, many years.

Awesome to hear, but do you mean it's a really good hat compared to others in the $280 range, or a good hat compared to the hats in the $180 range?

I realize that the weak dollar is driving up the price which in the original currency is quite reasonable, but I'm having trouble figuring out if the factory hat will have the same benefits of a hat that I might buy locally (or with a similar exchange rate) for $280. If most of the customers are from the U.S. as you have stated, are they getting the same quality hat for the $280 as they have been from AB for 100% beaver hats priced at roughly the same?

We have a few enquiries from resellers and plan to coorporate with them if they are willing to buy certain quantities. However this is not in dry clothes yet. It is planned to be sold to hat wearers all over the World and not limited to the Indygear community.

That's great! Are these hats going to have markup on them as well? For example, if one day I find a local (or trusted online) retailer, will I be able to get one "off the shelf" for the same cost, or will there be added cost on the hats?

This was done by hand from an un-experienced person (from an Indyfan's point of view). This is something that will need further discussion yet Wink

This is my major concern (next to price/quality). It seems strange to me that a factory hat would be hand bashed. When I ordered my AB hats I did so because I trusted that I was going to get a hand made hat from a person that took pride in the Indy name and the product.

There is a reason why I don't buy the official Indy hats and that is because the people making them don't put in the same care as you guys at AB do. If I order a AB factory hat, how am I going to know that I am getting exactly what I am hoping when the worker making my hat might be on his first day on the job.

Are there any plans for making the blocks with the bash so they all come off the line 100% the same?

Two more questions I just thought of.

What will be the return policy/warrenty on the hats?

For $280 I currently can get a hand made AB from Steve, which I can send back and have reblocked for a small fee. Will these hats come with a reblocking service?

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri May 16, 2008 9:15 am

I think the hat looks amazing. Great job Marc

. Obviously, I am picturing it in my head without that crease that was put in, but anyone can tell that with a proper bash, this would turn out to be an amzing hat.

I think that Crazylegs is on to something, however. If the majority of the projected buyers are in the US and not Europe, it would make more sense to continue looking for an American factory. I realize that that the deal fell through with the original factory, but that doesn't mean that there aren't others waiting to snatch up this opportunity. If it were made State side, not only would the price come down for us in the States but in Europe as well, thanks to the exchange rate. I know everyone is excited that this factory may be the original makes of the Raiders hat, but if that means paying $280 for a factory hat, then I'm not sure I want the original makers.

I say the hat looks amazing, but making it in Europe when the target audience is in the States will greatly decrease the number of potential buyers, if based solely on the exchange rate. If you don't want to move the factory, that is fine, and I understand that, but then at least offer a rabbit version that would make the hat more affordable in the States. At this point, many COW members have chimed in on the subject and seem to be double thinking the Henry based on the price. Maybe it is time to go back to the drawing board? Again, not meant to bash, I just want to see the Henry be all that it can be.

Dave

Dr._J · Post by **Dr._J** » Fri May 16, 2008 11:18 am

Marc wrote:And (yet) again, the weak Dollar is what really drives the prices here gents. Not your fault of course, however since we weren't able to get what we want in the US, we had to look elsewhere

Not too many years ago 180Euro were as little as 150$ With that in mind, we hope that the Dollar will soon be worth a Euro again and then it would be 180$ shipped worldwide - which CERTAINLY ain't a bad price for a semi hand made hat. Let's hope for some winds of change here

Regards,

Marc

Once again, we have a product sourced in Europe that is more expensive than it ought to be due to our "weak dollar". This project was originally intended to provide an affordable, readily available, factory-crafted AB. I have a hard time believing they couldn't find what they wanted in the U.S. and had to source the product in Europe. Marc is in Europe and it makes sense that is where he wants to do business but I think the original intent of this project has been misplaced. Just my two cents (what is that in Euros?).

Regards, Dr. J

Dr._J · Post by **Dr._J** » Fri May 16, 2008 11:20 am

I say scrap the "Henry", move the production to the U.S., lower the price and call it the "Hank".

Regards, Dr. J

The Aviator · Post by **The Aviator** » Fri May 16, 2008 11:31 am

I have a hard time believing they couldn't find what they wanted in the U.S. and had to source the product in Europe.

In all fairness if Steve and Mark say that they cant get a quality affordable production hat in the US who are we to question them, they probably know a good bit more about the hatting industry than the average joe

I think we are misplacing the word "budget" hat with that of a "cheaper" hat. If this hat was as cheap as we wanted it to be we would be complaining till our ears bled because of sacrifice in quality.

And btw mark that prototype looks awesome and im loving the 3 week waiting bit!!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri May 16, 2008 11:42 am

If the plans/expectations are to sell the hats to only Indy fans, then would it maybe be more beneficial for the AB company to consider employing a few people to get the already well established AB hats out instead of pouring resources into these hats?

I think Marc and the factory are gonna distribute this hat wholesale to existing hat retailers, as well as selling them at retail. Not sure.

Really to me, this hat is being created to take orders away from the handmade hats. A certain percentage of our customers would probably buy an AB factory hat in place of a handmade hat. This means to me personally that our lead times would shrink for the handmade hats. Now, granted, we could add additional folks in the hat shops, but this would eventually lead to what many hatters already do today. They hire some other guy to make their hats. I cannot do that, although I do have my nephew sewing in sweats. But, the rest of the hat is done by me alone. If I were to spend the big bucks to own a handmade AB, I EXPECT the same guy to make these hats as made the film hats. But that is just me.

When I was putting the film hats together, my sister sewed in around 1/2 of the sweatbands for the film contract. It was a necessary evil, from my point of view, and while I had taught her well, she screwed up one sweatband, which I did not catch, and it almost lost us the contract. (I never ever even mentioned it to her)

What I am hoping for is this. If Marc pulls this off, I will hopefully again be able to sew in my own sweats. So, once again, I will be the only one touching my hats. I like it like that. When you add a person to the production, it only complicates things for me personally, and I don't feel like I have total control anymore. I am a control freak, so I am uncomfortable with this current situation. If a factory AB takes away demand, it will be a blessing for me personally. I only want to make a couple of hundred hats a year, max. It will give me time to reclaim my other life, and go fishing, when the urge hits me.

The reason for going with a beaver blend in the first place was to leave a niche for the rabbit hat, provided by other vendors. We really did not want to step on the sales of those other vendors. Some like Ron has been servicing the Indy community long before we started. Why would we want to hurt Ron? So, the reasons for not offering the rabbit hat was in consideration for others. Now, perhaps that isn't good capitalism, but remember, when I started AB, I never intended on competing with Ron, and neither did Marc.(and the main reason, I dropped the rabbit line) What we were offering was not a direct competitor due to the price points. I think Marc is intent on keeping it this way, while offering a hat he feels is superiour in looks and quality, and worth the extra money. A niche of its own, that falls between the other vendors and our handmade hats. The middle ground. Regards, Fedora

hankey01 · Post by **hankey01** » Fri May 16, 2008 11:47 am

Steve,

Did you get my paypal? I paid you on may 13 for a KOTCS fedora!

Have tried emailing a few times...

THANKS

Jason

(sorry to interrupt this thread..but if steve is here...)

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri May 16, 2008 12:53 pm

I think it is great that you guys are respecting the rabbit niche and don't want to take sales away from Ron. I totally understand why you are not going with a pure rabbit fur hat. But, if there is a possibility of having the hat made in the US, I think you should try to. Did you guys simply not recieve good offers from US factories or were they too difficult to deal with? I am sure there is someone in the US willing to make these hats the way you need them to be made.

Dave

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Fri May 16, 2008 12:58 pm

I only want to make a couple of hundred hats a year, max. It will give me time to reclaim my other life, and go fishing, when the urge hits me. Laughing

I said this once, and I'll say it again...if you want to make only 100 hats a year, then only make 100 hats a year!

January 1st, open a first come, first serve list where people can place an order for an AB (limit one per year). Once the list is full, that is that for a year. This way people would at least know the wait time window for their hat. For the others, ya it might be a few years before they get an AB, but that is better than placing an order and then asking on here for the next two years.

So what to do in the mean time?

The reason for going with a beaver blend in the first place was to leave a niche for the rabbit hat, provided by other vendors. We really did not want to step on the sales of those other vendors.

Makes sense, but it also makes no sense. There are 20 guys or something alone that sell shirts around here and each one does something a little different. It also helps keep the quality high.

If you can't get the price of the AB factory down low enough because you're trying not to step on any toes, then perhaps it might not be the best time to put out a factory fedora. I personally love my AB's that you made Steve, but there is no way I would pay $280 for basically a cheap knock off, when I can get one from you for only a hundred more at most, even if the wait time is a lot.

I dunno, I get what is trying to be done, and I think it's awesome...but I'm not convinced the resources are being put into the right place.

I personally think the best idea would be to pull the plug on the "German Made" hats and explore an option that would bring the hat price down to where the price directly reflects the quality. It simply makes no sense to me why this hat should be offered at the price it is...and if I had to go by your statement, your reason for making them is to take the pressure off you by putting anything you can out that will divert the sales for a while.

I don't think that is the way to go. I say put the factory AB on hold. Put a hard limit on the orders taken by AB and AB Deluxe for the time being, and explore some other option. That way you've potentially solved all the problems at once, without driving up the cost of a hat that is nowhere near worth $280.

Just my take.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri May 16, 2008 1:08 pm

I think the high price problem can be solved by simply moving production to the US. Its simple. You guys would have to start your search over again, but I think it is worth it. Already COW members are expressing their dislike of the price. I think you guys should take that into consideration since we would be the ones purchasing the hat. If the hats aren't selling at a very good rate, then it defeats the purpose of having a factory made hat. I don't think it will sell well at that price. Everyone is excited about the Henry, but we want it done right and at the right price. This is not a budget AB, and yes I mean budget and not cheap...I know the difference. To me, and I think most others, it is worth it to dish out another $70 and just get a regular AB from you, Steve. The purpose of the Henry is defeated, at this point.

Hech, I'll help search for a US factory...for free. As long as this project is, again, done right and for the right price, I will do whatever you need me too.

Dave

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri May 16, 2008 1:22 pm

Well we HAVE tried everything humanly possible in the US and there are just so and so many factories who can actually make the hat we desire to call an Adventurebilt and those that we spoke to weren't up to it. Period. Steve and I tryed HARD to get it done, helping out with tips and hint. Still, what we got were prices that would end up BEYOND 280$ sales price or plain something that was below the quality of what we wanted. This is no where to be eliter or something but what good would it be to ruin the good reputation that took us so long to built up by offering a cheap (in opposite to easily affordable) hat?

Also, please stop poking on that price for now. I have said that we'll do our best in order to make them more affordable and we will do as promised.

Thanks,

Marc

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri May 16, 2008 1:32 pm

I don't understand why any factory would pass up on this great deal. At least you guys did try everything possible to get it done in the US. Sorry about picking at the price. I know you will do everything you can. Either way, I can't wait to see what the outcome will be.

Dave

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Fri May 16, 2008 1:32 pm

Did you try Canada? I dunno who makes what here, but you might have luck here and the dollar is pretty even right now.

I don't think people are really "poking" at the price anymore....If I had to guess, what's starting to happen is that the quality of the hat is starting to get to that point where lowering the price seems like it will adversely effect the quality even more.

Perhaps I might ask this a different way.

Taking the "weak dollar" factor out of the equation. Dollar for dollar, what do you personally feel a hat of this quality should be worth (factoring in shipping, markup, etc.)?

Alan · Post by **Alan** » Fri May 16, 2008 1:36 pm

"Done right" is in the eye of the beholder, I'd think. The hat making community is a small one. I'm sure that US sources were exhausted during their search.

As has been stated there are different options at the $100-$200 price point, particularly with Jersey Jones new AB block offering. It seems like AB is wanting to do something different that are happy to put the AB stamp on. As Steve said, they aren't interested in simply making another Akubra.

Marc, has it been confirmed that this was THE factory?

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Fri May 16, 2008 1:41 pm

I think people need to take a deep breath, a big step back, and stop trying to impose their own personal preferences and desires on to Steve and Marc's business model.

Don't like the new factory AB? Then don't buy one. Problem solved! If the market isn't there for this hat, then Steve and Marc will have to adjust. Until then, let them do what they do best... make great hats for the rest of us.

Alan · Post by **Alan** » Fri May 16, 2008 1:42 pm

that_dog wrote:I think people need to take a deep breath, a big step back, and stop trying to impose their own personal preferences and desires on to Steve and Marc's business model.

Don't like the new factory AB? Then don't buy one. Problem solved! If the market isn't there for this hat, then Steve and Marc will have to adjust. Until then, let them do what they do best... make great hats for the rest of us.

Kittlemeier · Post by **Kittlemeier** » Fri May 16, 2008 1:53 pm

Why can't people just say thanks for the hard work?

Everyone is free to start up their own business. I don't think Steve or Marc are gonna try to tell you how to run it.

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Fri May 16, 2008 1:56 pm

I think people need to take a deep breath, a big step back, and stop trying to impose their own personal preferences and desires on to Steve and Marc's business model.

Don't like the new factory AB? Then don't buy one. Problem solved! If the market isn't there for this hat, then Steve and Marc will have to adjust. Until then, let them do what they do best... make great hats for the rest of us.

Oh Geez...here we go again with the, "If you don't like it, then don't buy it" argument.

(OFF TOPIC)

I wanna say once and for all, that is one of the worst arguments ever really. I mean, what do you want me to say to that..."Ok, I won't then!" and go make myself some French Toast?

I know that this next statement might make a few people around here a bit upset at me, but I think one of the worst things about this place sometimes is when some people seem to accept, and defend anything that comes down the pipes no matter how ridiculous it might be. Just yesterday I saw an Idol being sold on here for like $500+ dollars...that is completely and utterly wrong since I know how much time, effort, and materials it takes to make one.

The reason I for one am imposing my personal preferences and desires on this business model, opposed to e-mailing every business that is selling some random hat they claim to be an Official Indiana Jones hat, is because the people who are offering these hats are on here explaining what they're doing, and asking us if it's working for us.

If Marc/Steve didn't care what we thought, then I would assume they would simply show up one day, say, "Here is the official AB factory fedora, $3000, take it or leave it!"

But since they keep coming back, showing us, and telling us the progress they are trying to get an idea of what we thing as their target market, and sharing the excitement.

So, I can do as you say and go, "I don't like it, so I won't buy one!" or I can voice my opinions that might spark an idea or two that would make this better for everyone in the end. Or, I can sit there with my eyes wide open in awe, fold my hands in my lap, and say, "Yes Mr. Vendor, I have unlimited amounts of cash and I will buy anything anyone puts in front of me that is Indiana Jones related, I will never ever raise any concerns for anything because I know that everyone has my best interest in mind....and if anyone tries to make trouble, I'll grab my whip and gun and defend them till I die because if there is one thing I know it's that it's hard to sell Indy gear, and we should all pay double perhaps.!"

Yes, I realize it's sarcastic, but man...nothing drives me more insane than when someone starts using the, "We should all just be happy anyone is doing anything" argument.

Everyone is free to start up their own business. I don't think Steve or Marc are gonna try to tell you how to run it.

If I came on here and wanted to start offering fedoras to you guys, and I posted my plan of action on here, I think I would encourage Marc and Steve to chime in.

I wouldn't be looking for a pat on the back and a batch of cookies in the mail for my efforts. I'm an adult doing business and that takes a bit of a thick skin. My praise would come from the sales in the end and the happy customers...if I wanted random praise I would draw pictures and show my mom, she'll always say my stuff is awesome.

I voice my opinions to Marc, Steve, and anyone else on here offering a product I am interested in because I respect them enough to talk to them like adults. I don't need to say thank you 5000 times to Marc/Steve for simply dreaming up ideas because in my eyes they understand that in the end, if I buy their product and love it, I will stand behind it, and recommend it until the end of time.

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:00 pm

I don't think it's a matter of not liking it. I think it's a matter of getting priced out of an affordable and quickly received AB, and that's something people were looking forward to. You can't blame 'em for being disappointed by that.

I'm not looking to start trouble, but what is the beaver content of the Camptown bodies? If it's higher, then you could get the model '57 with the same block for less money. Sure, the lead time is a bit longer, but otherwise it seems like you'd be paying more just for the AB branding?

That said, I think we're spoiled by the affordable hats we've been offered here. The benchmark for "affordable" rises and we get kind of squeamish.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:03 pm

that_dog wrote:I think people need to take a deep breath, a big step back, and stop trying to impose their own personal preferences and desires on to Steve and Marc's business model.

Don't like the new factory AB? Then don't buy one. Problem solved! If the market isn't there for this hat, then Steve and Marc will have to adjust. Until then, let them do what they do best... make great hats for the rest of us.

Agreed

I like what I see in the prototype, and I'm very much looking forward to more pics once the hat is in Marc's hands and he's had a chance to fiddle with the bash. I'd also love to see some shots of the hat in different lighting so we can really get a good look at what seems to be a very nice color of felt.

As for the price...I can't believe how much belly-aching there is over a price that isn't even set in stone, yet!

Like That_Dog said, if you don't like it, don't buy it. In this day and age, the options for a good Indy fedora at a reasonable price are better than they have EVER BEEN. EVER. There is a hat out there in just about every price range to fill just about every niche. When I first got into this hobby way back in the days of the Indyfan forum, the hat options were pretty much limited to Dorfman, Stetson or spend the big bucks on an HJ. Now, in addition to the old DP and Stetsons, you've got Akubras, Millers, PB's, JPD's, Christy's, Kepplers and Camptowns, all around or UNDER the $200 mark. Sometimes I think the newer fans don't know how good they have it!

As for me, I know how committed Marc is to quality and accuracy. I also know how highly he regards the reputation the AB brand has built over the last few years, and he's not about to sacrifice ANY of that just to make a "cheaper" hat. To be honest, I think people just need to cut the guy a bit of slack until the whole project (both the product AND the price)is finalized.

-GCR

Kittlemeier · Post by **Kittlemeier** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:06 pm

Again, anyone is free to start their own company. Magnoli, Steve, Marc, Lee, Jersey, etc. have and it's been great for the community. If you have ideas, use them.

Go and do likewise, gentlemen.

Piker · Post by **Piker** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:07 pm

.....and go make myself some French Toast?

Can I have some? Sounds yummy! Carbohydrate starved here Starting to feel like Gollum: "We forgots the taste of bread," Atkins diet and all.

I'm also sure that Marc and Steve are taking our feedback to heart, we are their best customers I'd wager. But lets not over do it. Too much of a good thing and all that.

They won't let us down.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:07 pm

crazylegsmurphy wrote:
I think people need to take a deep breath, a big step back, and stop trying to impose their own personal preferences and desires on to Steve and Marc's business model.

Don't like the new factory AB? Then don't buy one. Problem solved! If the market isn't there for this hat, then Steve and Marc will have to adjust. Until then, let them do what they do best... make great hats for the rest of us.
Oh Geez...here we go again with the, "If you don't like it, then don't buy it" argument.

(OFF TOPIC)

I wanna say once and for all, that is one of the worst arguments ever really. I mean, what do you want me to say to that..."Ok, I won't then!" and go make myself some French Toast?

I know that this next statement might make a few people around here a bit upset at me, but I think one of the worst things about this place sometimes is when some people seem to accept, and defend anything that comes down the pipes no matter how ridiculous it might be. Just yesterday I saw an Idol being sold on here for like $500+ dollars...that is completely and utterly wrong since I know how much time, effort, and materials it takes to make one.

The reason I for one am imposing my personal preferences and desires on this business model, opposed to e-mailing every business that is selling some random hat they claim to be an Official Indiana Jones hat, is because the people who are offering these hats are on here explaining what they're doing, and asking us if it's working for us.

If Marc/Steve didn't care what we thought, then I would assume they would simply show up one day, say, "Here is the official AB factory fedora, $3000, take it or leave it!"

But since they keep coming back, showing us, and telling us the progress they are trying to get an idea of what we thing as their target market, and sharing the excitement.

So, I can do as you say and go, "I don't like it, so I won't buy one!" or I can voice my opinions that might spark an idea or two that would make this better for everyone in the end. Or, I can sit there with my eyes wide open in awe, fold my hands in my lap, and say, "Yes Mr. Vendor, I have unlimited amounts of cash and I will buy anything anyone puts in front of me that is Indiana Jones related, I will never ever raise any concerns for anything because I know that everyone has my best interest in mind....and if anyone tries to make trouble, I'll grab my whip and gun and defend them till I die because if there is one thing I know it's that it's hard to sell Indy gear, and we should all pay double perhaps.!"

Yes, I realize it's sarcastic, but man...nothing drives me more insane than when someone starts using the, "We should all just be happy anyone is doing anything" argument.

You might have more of a point if you didn't question the quality and price of the hat, sight unseen, and if your advice to Marc and Steve wasn't to (and I quote) "pull the plug" on the factory hat into which they've put so much time and effort.

Essentially, you're making Marc and Steve the victims of their own success. "No good deed goes unpunished," as they say. You're comparing the prices of a premium quality beaver blend factory hat with 100% handmade beaver hats that have been sold from the beginning at under-market rates as a favor to the fans. What would an AB cost in the open market without a fan discount? Much more than $225, or $250, or $280, or even $350. So the price comparison doesn't hold much water with me.

It boils down to consumer choice. Feel free to exercise yours, but when your "advice" to a businessman is to shut down his operation just because he's not making his product cheap enough for you, don't expect a slap on the back and a hearty "Thanks!"

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:11 pm

I don't think anyone here was suggesting to have AB throw mud on their reputation just to have a more affordable model. They were opinions. I don't want a "cheap" AB and I don't think anyone else does. Marc says he is working on the price. Great. We got the price thing down. I'm sure he is going to do everything humanly possible. And lets not forget that Steve said they were planning on selling wholsale (I think). This would reduce the price of the hat at whatever store buys them. Anyone every shopped at BJ's? Why are the prices lower than Winn-Dixie...because its wholesale. But those were opinions and just as it was the opinion of some to have a "don't like it, don't buy it attitude" it is the opinion of others to give their two cents.

Dave

IndyBrit · Post by **IndyBrit** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:12 pm

Gents,

I think everyone is getting bit carried away with the price issuse. Steady on chaps!

Granted that as I live in Europe I don't have the problem. But the dollar is where it is now and there is not much Marc can do about it.

The core issuse here is the AB brand, to downgrade quailty to get the price down would be damaging to the AB brand. I am convinced that the Henry will be worth it. If factory could not be found in the US that could meet the quality standards so be it, work with one that can.

The current SAB HJ Poet is not far of the price point. Which do you think will be the better value? My money is on the AB. I have an HJ and while it has the cache of being " the" Raiders brand it is not really worth the money. ( unless of course Mr. Delk has worked on it)I have just got a Christy Adventurer for a friend, at the price point it is fine, and as dicussed eslewhere it is to all intent and purpose an HJ

Do the reseach and you will find plenty of quality hats at around this price, but of course not the indy block, ribbon etc. If you don't want to pony up for the Henry, fine get a Fed. Also bear in mind that Marc has clearly stated that he will do what he can to get the price down. Let him work on this but don't expect to much.

Marc, I salute you. The prototype looks great, bash not withstanding. Please ignore those who advocate dropping this project. Press on, don't compromise on quality and protect the AB brand values. You have a customer for the Henry in me and I am sure that others will follow.

With regard to the point that a handmade AB is only a few dollars more. A fair point, but offset that against the waiting time.

I'll take the Henry and come back to Marc for an hand made AB some day, but not an Indy, I have fallen in love with the special Marc recently made for a friends father.

Regards to all of the Indy fans across the pond. I really hope that the dollar turns around. You have to elect a new President soon, close wisely

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:13 pm

Keep it civil, guys. It can be a spirited debate, but don't let it get uncivil.

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:19 pm

You might have more of a point if you didn't question the quality and price of the hat, sight unseen, and if your advice to Marc and Steve wasn't to (and I quote) "pull the plug" on the factory hat into which they've put so much time and effort.

Umm, so you're saying that I should simply order one no matter what the cost, and then come back here and voice my opinion good or bad once everything has been said and done?

If you noticed I waited until I saw the prototype, Marc posted a potential price, what the beaver content was, and all that. I think I have a pretty good idea of what the hat is going to be like, and instead of waiting any longer, I figured I would put in my two cents now as I personally feel it might be better served to "Hold off" and come at it from a new direction perhaps.

Essentially, you're making Marc and Steve the victims of their own success. "No good deed goes unpunished," as they say. You're comparing the prices of a premium quality beaver blend factory hat with 100% handmade beaver hats that have been sold from the beginning at under-market rates as a favor to the fans. What would an AB cost in the open market without a fan discount? Much more than $225, or $250, or $280, or even $350. So the price comparison doesn't hold much water with me.

What I am doing is asking questions. I am asking if it's in the best interest of the consumer to produce a hat in a place that drives up the price to equal that of higher quality hats. I think that is a legit question to ask when many people only have enough in the budget for one hat.

Offering the hat out of Germany doesn't do anything for the stated target market. There is a reason why many businesses move factories to China and that's because it's not really the best for business if the product you're offering is selling for twice as much, but has the same quality as the rest of the market.

I'm not saying take this to China by any means, but I think maybe there might be something else that can be done to take the pressure of of Steve and Marc, without resorting to a factory hat.

It boils down to consumer choice. Feel free to exercise yours, but when your "advice" to a businessman is to shut down his operation just because he's not making his product cheap enough for you, don't expect a slap on the back and a hearty "Thanks!"

That's a pretty distorted summery of what I am saying. I'm not saying shut it down because it's not cheap enough for me, I have bought 3 AB hats in my time which cost me almost $900, so it's not really about ME personally....I have no problem waiting for a genuine AB hat....what I am doing is voicing my concerns with the current status of the hat on behalf of anyone here (and there seems to be a few) that feel that the price increase isn't justified and perhaps there is another way to go about this.

Dr._J · Post by **Dr._J** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:39 pm

Ah, the old "If you don't like it, don't buy it" argument. Does that mean if I can't afford the product, I can't discuss it? What if I thought it was a great idea and perhaps had ideas how it could be more affordable so "poor folks" like me could buy one? Could I discuss it then?

We're living in a new age of $700 Aldens and $150 Holsters. I'm happy as a clam with my "close-enough", regular ol' Aldens and Keppler holster but I still feel entitled to discuss the development of new products (even ones I can't afford). This IS a forum after-all. Let's not ignore the opinions of those less inclined to drop vast sums of money at the drop of a fedora.

Regards, Dr. J

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:52 pm

Fedora wrote:A factory Ab needs to sell for 185.00 tops. Beyond that, you are no longer competitive. And I am not interested

I think it's perfectly fair to discuss the pricing as a potential customer, especially considering Steve's own benchmark for pricing.

rrhanselka · Post by **rrhanselka** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:55 pm

I'm sure glad some of you guys aren't on Adventurebilt's Board of Directors. You all act like this is your company. I'm just proud that Steve and Marc share their ideas with us. They seem to have done just fine without our input. I would like to thank them for a fine fedora and the patience to listen to some of us complain, gripe, and worry about the new factory hat project.

BTW, I just got my KofCS fedora yesterday. It'sa beauty. Sign me up for one of the new factory hats, please, sight unseen and price unseen. I trust you guys in all of your efforts.

Many Thanks
Randall

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:55 pm

By all means, discuss pricing to your heart's content. I'd be very curious to see everyone's suggestions on saving money on materials, labor, overhead, and distribution costs, all while maintaining a reasonable rate of return for the factory and for Marc and Steve.

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:58 pm

You know, it's funny. I was on the other side of the fence from crazylegs over in the $700 Alden thread, but a lot of what he said there (and now here) makes sense.

There are a lot of AB fans here, that's obvious. Can we not discuss things objectively without resorting to cheerleading or lambasting the people who don't simply want to fall in line?

Piker · Post by **Piker** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:02 pm

WeeMadHamish wrote:
Fedora wrote:A factory Ab needs to sell for 185.00 tops. Beyond that, you are no longer competitive. And I am not interested
I think it's perfectly fair to discuss the pricing as a potential customer, especially considering Steve's own benchmark for pricing.

Sounds like a good price point and after all, we COW members are a bit like those test panels of early adopters that the computer and electronics industry uses.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:04 pm

What is objective about calling a hat you've never seen in person "a cheap knockoff" and "a hat that is nowhere near worth $280"?

IndyBrit raised a good point... the benchmark for the AB factory hat is the HJ. Lots of people bought HJs for as much or more than $280 -- hats that were not from the original Raiders blocks, were of lower-quality, fast-tapering felt, and were cheaply assembled. By all accounts the AB factory hat will be superior in almost all respects to the HJ, yet people question whether it's worth it before it's even in production. Tough crowd!

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:06 pm

There are a lot of AB fans here, that's obvious. Can we not discuss things objectively without resorting to cheerleading or lambasting the people who don't simply want to fall in line?

Doesn't seem that way. It always seems like someone has to make it personal by adding the ol' "I would sign my kidney away to that Vendor just for posting here!" comment in the middle of the conversation.

This isn't about Marc or Steve personally. If I had the chance I would take em both out for a steak and a beer and have none of this talk, but I'm not here to give group hugs and kiss hands...I'm here to see if I can't get some conversation going (opposed to the "Wow, thanks for even getting up this morning") and see if there is something that can be done to make this work for everyone and not just you guys out there who actually have jobs!

Piker · Post by **Piker** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:10 pm

that_dog wrote:By all means, discuss pricing to your heart's content. I'd be very curious to see everyone's suggestions on saving money on materials, labor, overhead, and distribution costs, all while maintaining a reasonable rate of return for the factory and for Marc and Steve.

There are guys and gals that do just that for a living, they are called consultants and they don't work for free.

Will Work for Hats!

Need to paint me up a sign and stand by the roadside!!!

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:10 pm

that_dog wrote:What is objective about calling a hat you've never seen in person "a cheap knockoff" and "a hat that is nowhere near worth $280"?

No one said that. This sort of comment is what I meant about objectivism.

that_dog wrote:IndyBrit raised a good point... the benchmark for the AB factory hat is the HJ. Lots of people bought HJs for as much or more than $280 -- hats that were not from the original Raiders blocks, were of lower-quality, fast-tapering felt, and were cheaply assembled.

People are willing to pay a premium for the HJ brand alone, just because of its roots. I have no doubts that the factory AB will be vastly superior in quality, but I'm wondering if people are being more accepting of a price roughly $100 over the point where Steve considered that it would no longer be worth offering simply because of the Adventurebilt name. It's fair to wonder if people would be as quick to snatch them up if it were a different vendor when you can get a handmade hat of the same quality for a lower price.

Piker · Post by **Piker** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:19 pm

This sort of comment is what I meant about objectivism

Didn't John Gault wear a hat?

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:20 pm

WeeMadHamish wrote:
that_dog wrote:What is objective about calling a hat you've never seen in person "a cheap knockoff" and "a hat that is nowhere near worth $280"?
No one said that. This sort of comment is what I meant about objectivism.

Ahem.

crazylegsmurphy wrote:I personally love my AB's that you made Steve, but there is no way I would pay $280 for basically a cheap knock off, when I can get one from you for only a hundred more at most, even if the wait time is a lot.

snip

That way you've potentially solved all the problems at once, without driving up the cost of a hat that is nowhere near worth $280.

Objective, indeed.

WeeMadHamish wrote:
that_dog wrote:IndyBrit raised a good point... the benchmark for the AB factory hat is the HJ. Lots of people bought HJs for as much or more than $280 -- hats that were not from the original Raiders blocks, were of lower-quality, fast-tapering felt, and were cheaply assembled.
People are willing to pay a premium for the HJ brand alone, just because of its roots. I have no doubts that the factory AB will be vastly superior in quality, but I'm wondering if people are being more accepting of a price roughly $100 over the point where Steve considered that it would no longer be worth offering simply because of the Adventurebilt name. It's fair to wonder if people would be as quick to snatch them up if it were a different vendor when you can get a handmade hat of the same quality for a lower price.

You can only get a handmade hat of the same (better, probably) quality because Steve and Marc sell their hats at a steep discount for the fans. What is the hat actually worth on the open market?

I'm fine for discussing the merits of hats, and price is certainly a part of that, but given the situation, I don't think it's fair to engage in the kind of criticism that's been leveled here without a basic understanding of the economics of the project. I certainly don't pretend to have such an understanding, but I'm not telling anyone they should or shouldn't buy this hat. That's up to you. Just be careful telling people what the fruits of their labor is or isn't worth.

Dr._J · Post by **Dr._J** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:26 pm

"Sign me up for one of the new factory hats, please, sight unseen and price unseen."

Now who can argue with that?

Do you think this makes you a better customer? Are you more appreciative of Steve and Marc's efforts than the rest of us? I don't think so. As for AB sharing their ideas and product development, let me ask you this: Who do you think they're making these hats for anyway? John Q. Public can walk into any hat shop at the mall and buy a Dorfman Pacific for $42. WE are the AB customer (or a VAST part of it). As a collective community we've offered advice (some welcomed and some ignored) for ALL of our vendors. If it wasn't for some people on this forum we'd be wearing bellhop jackets (use your search button if necessary) and hiking boots. I think AB welcomes our feedback. Some companies pay big bucks for market research.

I'm not on the Board of Directors; I'm not even a shareholder. I'm just a customer. I think that makes my opinion important enough.

Dr. J

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:26 pm

WeeMadHamish wrote:
that_dog wrote:What is objective about calling a hat you've never seen in person "a cheap knockoff" and "a hat that is nowhere near worth $280"?

No one said that. This sort of comment is what I meant about objectivism.

Heh..I think I said that....but what I meant was that the "weak dollar" excuse doesn't justify the cost when as you said in your second part that there are many vendors who are trying really hard to sell hats, but might be losing business to the AB name alone when they might have a better product (in the price range) in the end.

Having a great reputation is awesome, and wanting to offer stuff to a community of people at the highest quality possible for the best price is extremely noble, but I think it's been well established that it's simply not cost effective to have these things produced in Europe when the majority of customers are in the U.S.

Marc isn't "screwing" anyone with his offerings, but he's unfortunately in an unfortunate place to be doing this kind of thing. Do I wish the dollar was better, ya, of course, but do I think it's a good justification for the drastic price increase....not really.

Here is a quick example. Lets say as a Canadian I wanted to get a genuine Scottish kilt from Scotland. Now, those are a pretty impossible thing to get here in Canada so I automatically assume I'm going to have to pay more for the real deal.

I don't complain, because it's something specific I'm looking to get. However, lets say that I wanted to get me a bottle of genuine Canadian maple syrup (for my French Toast I was making before), does it make sense for me to go online to a Scottish website and order the product? Does it even make sense for the Scottish business to make the product there as they have to build special factories just to grow the trees.

My point is, if your target market is having to pay more for your product because of where you are, then I think it's time to look for somewhere else to produce it. If the product is specific to the country then ya, people expect to pay more for that luxury, but using the "weak dollar" excuse on everything you sell, eventually becomes quite annoying.

AB has a great reputation, and I am happy for the success, but I am wondering if all these "European Imports" will change the reputation of AB from what it currently holds, to that of offering awesome stuff, but at a price that simply doesn't make sense for the typical customer.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:28 pm

I know the Henry will be worth every penny. I wrote that earlier. It was just somewhat disheartening to see the projected price so much higher than initially intended. I am still excited about this hat. Though it will cost more than initally planned, we will still be recieving a great hat and a better alternative to an HJ. I know myself, and I will probably end up purcahsing one. I really like it and that alone makes it worth the money.

Dave

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:34 pm

that_dog wrote:Objective, indeed.

My mistake. To be fair, though, in context it is arguable that the factory AB is a knockoff... after all, neither Steve nor Marc are producing them with their hands. They are being outsourced to a factory, and the AB label stuck on them. "Cheap" was probably unfair.

that_dog wrote:You can only get a handmade hat of the same (better, probably) quality because Steve and Marc sell their hats at a steep discount for the fans. What is the hat actually worth on the open market?

Given competitive prices, ABs are certainly worth easily double the asking price. But we're no longer talking about a handmade hat built to individual specifications. We're talking about hats created assembly-line style in off-the-shelf sizes. They're completely different products.

that_dog wrote:I'm fine for discussing the merits of hats, and price is certainly a part of that, but given the situation, I don't think it's fair to engage in the kind of criticism that's been leveled here without a basic understanding of the economics of the project. I certainly don't pretend to have such an understanding, but I'm not telling anyone they should or shouldn't buy this hat.

I don't pretend to have any such understanding, either. But it will never be obtained by simply smiling and nodding and handing over the credit card.

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Fri May 16, 2008 4:17 pm

I guess that answers our questions. Maybe someone has some leads in Canada, New Zealand, or Australia to reduce costs. I know it's much easier said than done, and we're all "Monday morning quarterbacks" here. Plus, we have no idea of what you've already gone through, but everyone knows the cost of living in much of Europe is off the wall crazy theses days. Why don't you strike a deal with Hatsdirect or Akubra? I guess there are reasons, maybe they don't actually supply or provide the services or materials you are looking for, and they only are a middle-man? I can understand not wanting to take business away from other pure rabbit dealers, fair enough and thoughtful.

Kittlemeier · Post by **Kittlemeier** » Fri May 16, 2008 4:29 pm

WeeMadHamish wrote:To be fair, though, in context it is arguable that the factory AB is a knockoff... after all, neither Steve nor Marc are producing them with their hands. They are being outsourced to a factory, and the AB label stuck on them.

The Henry will be a knockoff of a handmade hat...that's a knockoff of a factory produced hat from thirty years ago...possibly by the same factory that'll be producing the Henry. Sounds good to me and I'm not one who buys everything I see by any means.

The cost is not that prohibitive. It's more than we thought but nobody's whining about Nowak's prices. Maybe Marc should have started a rumor the Henry was gonna cost $560 and then we'd all be praising him. Maybe he should adopt the policy. It seems he gets grief for whatever he brings us. Nowak was looked at like a saviour for cutting the rumored price in half. This is not a knock on Nowak BTW.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri May 16, 2008 4:42 pm

That may have helped. I think it was just the shock of seing and extra $100 over the price Steve wanted. Even if Marc can't bring the price down at all, it is still a great value, though not necessarily a budget AB. It would not fulfill its original purpose, but it will fill a niche that is monopolized by HJ and that is awesome. It is a beautiful hat and I think that once we see more photographs and get over the initial "whoah, that is more than I thought it was going to be" we will all be very happy with this.

I don't, however, agree with this statement:

Sign me up for one of the new factory hats, please, sight unseen and price unseen. I trust you guys in all of your efforts.

Sorry, rrhanselka, but I would never purcahse anything unless I know what I am getting. I trust Steve and Marc as much as anyone else, but I still wouldn't buy this hat without seeing it. To put things into perspective, I love the tone and feel of a Gibson Les Paul guitar, but quality of Gibson guitars was on the decline and didn't improve until about three years ago. I was not about to pay a premium for an average guitar just because it had a name on the headstalk. I did end up purchasing one about two years ago, but I made sure that the quality of the guitar was above standard. Even though I am loyal to Gibson, I will not buy a sub-par guitar and neither will I do the same with a fedora.

Dave

Shishak · Post by **Shishak** » Fri May 16, 2008 4:48 pm

I'm wondering how big a part this particular factory plays in all this. Here is what I mean: is it the fact that this factory is the one where the original hat was made? Is that why it is so important to have the AB hats produced there? So that one can say, "my hat was made at the same factory as the original Raiders hat." I understand that a lot of research was done in U.S. to find a factory, but once this original factory was found, did all that stop? Are people interested in having an AB made at THE factory, or an AB made elsewhere that might be more affordable?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri May 16, 2008 4:54 pm

Glad all you guys have an opinion on this. I really can't add a thing except to say that if Marc pulls this off, and gets what he is aiming for, this factory hat will do the AB name proud. That's all I am concerned about. The hat will either sell, or it won't, at what he retails them at. If they sell, I will be happy. If they don't, I will still be happy. It's a win, win for me, either way it goes.

I am afraid nothing can top supplying those film hats. Everything else to me takes a back seat.

But you guys have fun with this, and I am sure Marc is listening closely to the input, which we always appreciate! Regards, Fedora

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri May 16, 2008 4:56 pm

Honestly, to me the factory is just a bonus and more of a conversation peice than anything else. If the hat can be produced somewhere else for less then I think it should be, without compromising quality, of course. It seems that a search for a US factory is futile but I think the search should go on, just in case a factory is found that can produce this hat at AB standards and want to produce this hat at AB standards at a good price. From what I understand, though, no such factory exists in the US. So, to Europe it is. Either way, we are getting the Henry which I know will be a phenominal hat.

Dave