Indy's screen used whip from Temple of Doom

ScreenUsed · Post by **ScreenUsed** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:28 pm

Hello again, I also posted my fedora today in the fedora message area. This is one of the whips that Harrison Ford used while filming Temple of Doom. I acquired it from the same source as the screen used TOD fedora that I posted here at COW a few years ago.

Desi

Shtick · Post by **Shtick** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:09 pm

Very nice. Love the display rack. Does the whip ever see use? It would be a shame for it to dry up and become brittle. Was the damage to the wrist strap from the filming? Or was that after the fact?

Nebraska Brad · Post by **Nebraska Brad** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:11 pm

Totally cool

-Nebraska

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:14 pm

Very cool!

If you don't mind my asking, what is your authentication of this whip?

It's definitely an older DM but made new for the film because the 'Raiders' whips were all well worn and used prior to production. So I'll bite that this is a ToD whip.

I'm just being cautious is all. But after seeing the hat you posted in the Fedora section I'm of a mind to trust that this is indeed what you say it is.

It is an amazing looking whip though. Thank you very much for sharing.

—Kyle

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:22 pm

You're my hero.

Beautiful, subtle and very clean display.

If you don't mind my asking, what is your authentication of this whip?

I'll bite that this is a ToD whip.

I'm just being cautious is all. But after seeing the hat you posted in the Fedora section I'm of a mind to trust that this is indeed what you say it is.

I know what you're getting at and that it is generally harmless to ask those questions but perhaps this time we can stay away from questioning the authenticity of any of these items and just enjoy that someone is sharing them with us. It's gotten ugly in the past when some people more or less thought it was within their right to demand provenance from members who were sharing their collection pieces with us when in the end it really didn't matter. What mattered was that it was being shared with the community. So, please take anything pertaining to authenticity as you will, but we should probably leave those types of questions out of the new 'screen used' threads to avoid any of the usual commotion almost always associate with those types of threads.

Just enjoy.

IndyFrench · Post by **IndyFrench** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:04 am

Well said Agent5. I agree completely.

Weston · Post by **Weston** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:08 am

Wonderful! Thank very much! I am also curious about the wrist strap; these whips are tough items and wrist straps don't just fall off. You were swinging by it weren't you! Don't try to deny it! I'm not sure I could resist the temptation myself.

Again, thanks for sharing your collection with us.

Weston

ScreenUsed · Post by **ScreenUsed** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:46 am

Shtick, I know its a shame, but it does not see any use at all - I have never even handled it with my bare hands. I know, I know, but because of it's value, I'm stuck - I can't take the change of damaging it. For example, let's just say that there is some particular scratch on it somewhere. for the 50th anniversary DVDs (they keep making them over and over), in the "making of videos" they show a close up of Harrison Ford holding this whip, and the scratch shows. If I would have added additional scratches, or worse yet somehow changed the way that scratch looks, I just radically damaged not only the value, but more importantly the historical value. The wrist strap was broken when I recieved it - it was that way when it left the set. Maybe it was the one that went up into the ceiling fan and got caught?

The_Edge, authentication, yeah well as some other mentioned, I can't get into it. With my fedora and the pistol, they were easy to match on screen. With the whip, you never get a good enough shot to pic out flaws on it. So the only reason I purchased this is because it came from the same source as the TOD fedora I posted here a few years ago. That also was a dead on screen matching, mark for mark, fedora from TOD. Same authentication, same paperwork, same source. If it didn't have that history with it, I would not have purchased it.

Weston, how did you know? Did someone tell you? That was supposed to be a secret.

)

Desi

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:51 am

How certain are you that the whip WASN'T used in Raiders and re-used in Temple?
I would imagine you're up on treating the whip for longevity, yes? The last thing you want is for that thing to dry up.

ScreenUsed · Post by **ScreenUsed** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:54 am

agent5, well that's one of the reasons I'm here. I have not touched it, so please let me know what is the best way to treat it. I don't want it to look any different or change color. And I can't have it all dripping with oil or something, or it would have to be in it's own case away from the fedora and gun. The case actually has a custom plexiglass cover over it at all times.

Desi

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:55 am

ScreenUsed, I'm not sure if this has ever been done, but for a prop such as this, have you considered vacuum-sealing it in a clear container? I know that may seem extreme, but the last thing you want is bacteria in the air doing damage to a treasure such as this. :junior: -M

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:08 am

ScreenUsed wrote:agent5, well that's one of the reasons I'm here. I have not touched it, so please let me know what is the best way to treat it. I don't want it to look any different or change color. And I can't have it all dripping with oil or something, or it would have to be in it's own case away from the fedora and gun. The case actually has a custom plexiglass cover over it at all times.

Desi

ScreenUsed... this is my opinion. If this was in my possession, I would treat it with Pecards. I would put on those museum white cotton gloves and dress the whip with a light coat of Pecards. Pecards is a product commonly used by museum curators to preserve leather artifacts stored in archives or museum display cases. It's totally inert.

And Agent5 brings up a good point, this whip certainly has the STRONG possibility that it might have been around during the Raiders shoot. It does show the same build characteristics that David Morgan used for that era.

You probably don't know, but I did authenticate a Raiders whip.
viewtopic.php?t=1796&highlight=tale

We were not able to fully able to proof that the whip Mark Allen sold at his auction was screen used. But the provenance of that whip was fully documented that it was owned by Glenn Randall Jr. down to Fay Schneider down to Mark Allen. In detail, I was able to authenticate that it was a whip made by David Morgan. And that the whip was made according to the specs David used for that era (late 70's, early 80's). It's a style that is dissimilar to his current work for good reasons as established by David Morgan.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:46 am

Hey, Serg. Nice to see you.

Desi,
Serg's advice was what I was going to give you. Dave Morgan told me personally that Pecards is all he will use on his leather products. It breaths immediate life into old, dry leather in an amazing way. It's a Vaseline type of consistancy so it's easy to apply and it soaks right in. Just don't load it on and rub it in gently.

Speaking of museums, member Currator Rick is a museum currator and he may also be able to give you some insight into the best, long-term preservation methods.

I'm pretty sure that outside of sealing it without oxygen and keeping it out of light, it will continue to darken if left out. This is one of the properties of the leather. I'm sure Sergei can tell you better.

ScreenUsed · Post by **ScreenUsed** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:12 am

As for being used in Raiders, I really did not think to look through to movie to see if I caught something that might point to that. The source was related to all 3 movies, so it could have very well been used in Raiders first. Until I can prove it, I usually stay on the safe side of what the documentation states and the previous owner. They proved themselves out with the matching TOD fedora. But if it was used in Raiders also, I would need to run to the restroom.

Cool, thanks for the info on the Pecards. I will look into that. As for sealed cases, they are a different animal, and usually require nitrogen. The case cover we made is a tight fit, and it is always 100% covered, and I have UV tint on all my windows in that room as well. I have many other pieces that I would worry about before leather, so I would rather not take that next step. If I recall, when I researched it, the Smithsonian does not user sealed displays on most items, except maybe Lincoln's hat, and things of that nature. The 4-5 years I have owned it, it looks like it has not changed at all.

Desi

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:17 am

Pecards requires at least slight rubbing to apply, this would possibly be a risk to his 'marks and scratches' to which he was referring. It usually darkens and sometimes completely hides these kind of flaws in leather. Maybe look into a light spray on leather conditioner that doesn't require any 'mechanical' application with your hands,,only spray from a slight distance. I don't know of one righbt off hand , but there's gotta be something. LOL..the obsession with these self made 'idols' just blows my mind. ;-)

TR

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:42 am

Very Impressive Desi. Thank you for posting this here. This is one of the Indiana Jones bullwhips I haven’t seen before, and It’s always a pleasure to get to see one of the movie whips.

Indecently it does have a lot of characteristics of a Raiders era bullwhip, but from the thickness of the thong as it leaves the handle as well as a few other very minute details, I’d be more inclined to say it was one of the bullwhips made from the Temple of Doom. Thought it can be difficult to distinguish some of the individual whips epsecally from the from the first two films they are very similar but there are also slight variations in each whip itself. You might want to have it professionally examined to determine if the leather was Kangaroo or kip side calfskin, which was was used to make some of the bullwhips from Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Given its value I understand your caution. I’ve seen the way several well known auction houses have handled screen used whips before and they don’t take nearly as much care as you are with your bullwhip. I also agree with Agent5 and Sergie on the care of this whip. I understand wanting to preserve its current integrity but at the same time its 25+ year old leather that has probably lost most of its natural oils, its going to stiffen up and be subjected to oxidation. With out any treatment at all, it will deteriorate over time.

Pecards classic leather dressing is a museum endorsed product and will not negatively affect the ph of the leather or turn rancid. It's also a neutral color so it won’t darken the whip any more then by just adding back some of those lost natural oils. It’s a thick Vaseline like product so you can apply a light coat that will soak in to the leather with out over saturating the whip like light oils would. Sergie and I are hardly misguided when it comes to whip maintenance and care, but you might want to drop David Morgan a line about this bullwhip. He is one of the undisputed experts on leather whip care and restoration, and maintains a very impressive collection of Whips. Considering he made the whip, He could give you some sound advice on how to look after it for the long run. It’s your choice of course but it is something to consider and look into.

Thanks again for posting it

Dan

Solo · Post by **Solo** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:26 am

Hey Screen Used! That is a very nice display! I don't even want to ask how much all that cost. But I am curious as to how did you get those items. Was it like a Christys auction or something?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:34 am

Great advice, Dan.

Desi,
Dave Morgan will talk your ear off. He's such a nice guy with a wealth of information. I too recommend giving him a call. His number is on the main site and he should be able to answer all of your questions.

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:16 pm

agent5 wrote:
I know what you're getting at and that it is generally harmless to ask those questions but perhaps this time we can stay away from questioning the authenticity of any of these items and just enjoy that someone is sharing them with us.

Just enjoy.

The line of thinking (or lack there of) behind this statement is absurd. So is it now the official policy of this board to sit back and take everything at face value like a bunch of suckers? Ridiculous.

As far as I am concerned, this whip that ScreenUsed has posted is what he says it is. That's where I stand.

I would like to extend my sincere gratitude to ScreenUsed for addressing my question though. Thank you, sir.

As for preservation, let the man do what he wants to do. If he doesn't feel comfortable putting dressing on it, then so be it.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:49 pm

All we're doing is giving him advice, not putting a gun to his head while handing him a tube of Pecards.

As for my lack of reasoning, why not just look at the pics and do your own homework. It's obvious people who own this type of stuff don't want to divulge everything and I know you know why. What always happens is someone says it doesn't look real and wants proof. When the owner won't provide the proof, he's now a liar and then he leaves and who can blame him when people are trying to tear him down and all you wanted he do was share. Some dumb-assses ruin it for everyone before it began.

He posts, you look. You then make a conclusion, either you think it's real or you don't. Why the need to question the validity when the person posting is already stating it's validity and in the end whether it's real or not makes no real difference to you anyways, now does it? Of course not, you don't even need to answer that, I'll just tell the truth for you. No need to thank me.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:20 pm

1. Lets remember to keep this conversation civil. These situations have a way of turning ugly fast, and I will not allow that to happen here.

2. No one is saying you can’t question the validity of an item presented as a screen used prop. The question should always remain no matter what proof the owner can present. The fact is there are many fakes out there some that are meant to fool us others that are simply cases of mistaken identity many of which include very convincing credentials. David was making these bullwhips for anyone who wanted to buy them so unless the whip comes directly from George Lucas, Steven Spielberg or Harrison Ford and they say it was used in one of their films, we have no way of knowing for sure if its authentic. That goes for any of the so-called screen used whips. Unfortunately even a certificates of authenticity do not guarantee anything in the movie prop trade.

3. Desi is presenting these items in his private collection as what they are, nothing more or nothing less. As far as he knows they are authentic, he received the whip from source he trusts along with authentication that he believes to be valid. He does not owe us any more proof or any in-depth detail on how he acquired the item and if he does not choose to divulge that information that is his business. Believe him or not, that choice is up to the reader to make their own judgment call. If you want to question him on an item, you are welcome to do so as long as its done with professionalism and courtesy. This goes for anyone, as I will not allow public personal attacks to any member of this forum.

4. As for care, we are simply offering options and opinions. The bullwhip is his property and it is his decision alone to decide how to take care of it.

Dan

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:39 pm

What a treat to see this whip - I love seeing good photos of Morgan's earlier whips.

ScreenUsed · Post by **ScreenUsed** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:48 pm

Thanks for the comments everyone. I do appreciate the information about treating the whip, David Morgan, etc. I will be following up on those when I have a chance.

Desi

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:15 pm

Here's another nod for the Pecards as well. It started out as a museum product for preservation and now gearheads everywhere are using it on holsters, jackets, whips, Aldens, anything leather. They have multiple products (some with the beeswax, some without). I'd double check with Michaelson (our Pecard expect) beforehand as to which one to puchase if you're so inclined. Pecard's is easy to order direct from and quick shipping from what I recall. Just trying to give ya some more info on it. Beautiful whip. Again, like I posted in your fedora thread, thank you so much for sharing this item!

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:28 pm

You know what you should do? Now hear me out now 'cause this is going to come directly out of left field. You should ... I hate to give this little secret away ... you should put some Pecards on that whip. It is used by 100% of all museum curators in the world for treating leather items as well as minor scrapes and burns. DO IT! DO IT NOW! Look at what the oxidation has done to that wrist loop!

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:48 pm

The_Edge wrote:... Look at what the oxidation has done to that wrist loop!

Kyle... some people call it oxidation and some people see the Virgin Mary.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:54 pm

I just call it a broken wrist strap

At least no one recommened using mink oil

Dan

LemonLauren · Post by **LemonLauren** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:42 pm

ScreenUsed,

Thanks for posting the pics! It looks like a beautiful whip - I love the color. You're very kind to take the time to post your Indy collection for all of us to see.

)

-Lauren

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:53 pm

BullWhipBorton wrote:I just call it a broken wrist strap At least no one recommened using mink oil

Dan

Or, Neatsfoot...

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:45 pm

agent5 wrote:He posts, you look. You then make a conclusion, either you think it's real or you don't.

Aww! You sure we can't dust it for fingerprints or have it sent away for DNA analysis. Just for a little bit, please?

Canada Jones · Post by **Canada Jones** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:55 am

Screen Used. this is a great post. Wonderful to see actual screen used items. Loved the gun you posted a few months ago and now this one and the hat. As a member of the COW community it is a real treat to see posts like this.
best and thanks again for sharing this.
Canada

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:56 am

ScreenUsed wrote:As for sealed cases, they are a different animal, and usually require nitrogen. The case cover we made is a tight fit, and it is always 100% covered, and I have UV tint on all my windows in that room as well. I have many other pieces that I would worry about before leather, so I would rather not take that next step.
Desi

I think the main thing with leather whips is to of course be sure the humidity does not get extremely high since mold spores become active. The pecards will probably do for the bulk of the needed preservation work. It's good to hear about the UV protection.

thatguyno1 · Post by **thatguyno1** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:58 pm

bigrex wrote:
ScreenUsed wrote:As for sealed cases, they are a different animal, and usually require nitrogen. The case cover we made is a tight fit, and it is always 100% covered, and I have UV tint on all my windows in that room as well. I have many other pieces that I would worry about before leather, so I would rather not take that next step.
Desi
I think the main thing with leather whips is to of course be sure the humidity does not get extremely high since mold spores become active. The pecards will probably do for the bulk of the needed preservation work. It's good to hear about the UV protection.

Please forgive me if I am stating something that may already be obvious to everyone here but mentioning the UV protection on your windows reminded me of something regarding exposure to light. Flourescent lights bleach colors. I have seen colorful pictures faded into almost complete sepiatone by office flourescent lights. Since you mentioned that the windows of the room had UV protection I was wondering if the case itself had the same filtering on the glass (if it is glass and not plexiglas). You may not have any standard flourescent lights in that same room but a lot of people are converting to those new "curly" flourescent light bulbs in their home light fixtures. Would hate to see the colors affected by the lighting inside the room where it is displayed.

Also would like to add my appreciation for your sharing these pics along with the fedora.

Paul ô¿ô

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:21 pm

Bump.

This ToD bullwhip thread and Sergei's RotLA bullwhip thread should be stickys at the top of the main page, IMO.

rjallen70 · Post by **rjallen70** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:22 pm

I'll second the sticky nomination.
R