Toughest Lamb

[Heyjude7]

Hello Gents.. just wanted to know, thinkin about another jacket( ihave a ToD wested in goat) who makes the toughest lamb indy jacket? iwant a soft lamb indy jacket but didnt wanna get a jacket that was lamb that would rip if i brush against a wall.
any suggestions?

[Indiana G]

i vote for wested's preshrunk veg tanned lamb. very thick and durable imo.

[VP]

The regular Wested Authentic Brown Lamb doesn't rip if you brush it against a wall.

[Doug C]

I'd put my US Wings "Antiqued Lambskin" (which is a really thick New Zealand lambskin) up against any other for toughness. It's quite unlike the lambskin your used to, and read about around here. I'm trying to get another as we speak. Check out the US Wings site and look at the examples of this leather in an A-2, G-1 and Indy.

Doug C

[G-MANN]

I'd put my US Wings "Antiqued Lambskin" (which is a really thick New Zealand lambskin) up against any other for toughness. It's quite unlike the lambskin your used to, and read about around here. I'm trying to get another as we speak. Check out the US Wings site and look at the examples of this leather in an A-2, G-1 and Indy.

Doug C

AGREED 100%



G-MANN

[coronado3]

G-Mann

WOW! That relly looks like the Smithsonian LC Jacket! Did you do any additional distressing or is that the way it came?

C3

[CairoIndy]

G-Mann

WOW! That relly looks like the Smithsonian LC Jacket! Did you do any additional distressing or is that the way it came?

C3

I agree!..G-mann,that is a BEAUTIFUL jacket!

[Doug C]

Yep, I'm tellin' you guys it's awesome leather. G-MANN.. would you have a matching back shot for us to gawk at ?

Doug C

[G-MANN]

Thanks guys.

This was a gift from a friend so I am the second owner. I have not put it through much. Just every day wear.

Here is the back as per your request:



On a final note this is one of the older jackets and has the Cooper Label inside.



G-MANN

[Guardian Devil]

I think I just fell in love with a jacket!
G-Mann, thats very cool looking

[Heyjude7]

Why are there so many threads and posts saying that wested's lamb is thin ? should i trade my goat in for a lambskin? i dont have the $$ to spend on a new jacket so i would sell it to get a new one? any suggestionS? the problem with my goat is that it is a lil short for my taste.. i wore it for a year and ive noticed that it is too short for my clothing style... i wear it all the time so and also wested doesnt offer goat anymore.. what should i do gents? help meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Dr.Seuss]

HJ7:

If you determine which of the custom makers (Wested, Todd, etc.,) has the "sturdiest" lamb, kindly pass that on.

I would like something a bit more substantial/weighty than my Todd's Custom, but less meaty than a Wested HH.

Sincerely,

[indy89]

Nice jacket, G-MANN

[Heyjude7]

my wife has a lambskin jacket and it feels like it would rip with just one wrong turn ormovement..like high fashion leather..is that the type thats out there? as soon as i find out Doc Suess i will pass it on

[indy89]

my wife has a lambskin jacket and it feels like it would rip with just one wrong turn ormovement..like high fashion leather..is that the type thats out there? as soon as i find out Doc Suess i will pass it on

High fasion leather isn't something you'll get with an Indy jacket. Especially with a USW jacket.

[Doug C]

Heyjude7 wrote : ..is that the type thats out there?

Dude, did you read the part above, about the US Wings jacket and see G-MANN's pictures? That's atleast one answer to your inquirey. But I think that even the lambskin that the other manufacturer use gets a bad rap as being too delicate.

Doug C

[Heyjude7]

everyone makes the wested lambskin out to be super delicate.. i own a goat and i beat the @#$% out of it and it hasnt aged one bit or shown wear.. except the lining... i want something light for the summer but i dont wanna stretch my arms up and rip.. there goes 300 bucks!

[Kt Templar]

everyone makes the wested lambskin out to be super delicate.. i own a goat and i beat the @#$% out of it and it hasnt aged one bit or shown wear.. except the lining... i want something light for the summer but i dont wanna stretch my arms up and rip.. there goes 300 bucks!

Some people expect all leather to be like biker leathers and call everything else tissue paper.

You are unlikely to rip any of them but if you are hard on your clothes maybe avoid the 2 "budget" offerings! (JMO)!

The thinnest currently seems to be the Todd "Standard",
Then Wested "Special Offer" (Which is about the thinness of a ladies fashion jacket)

then probably the Todd Custom lamb,
Next is the Wested "Standard" lamb.

then
Novapelle Cow
Distressed Cow

veg tanned lamb,
goat,
horse,

cow.

The ones that have similar weights I've sort of grouped closer together.

Note: a size 40 cowhide weighs about 5lb, a standard wested lamb about 2.5lb.

I don't know where the Wings lamb fits in in that list. I have a distressed cowhide A2 of theirs and it's comparable with a distressed cow wested indy in weight.

[Heyjude7]

so a Wested standard lamb is mid list..not too shabby.. a birdie told me that wested's dark brown lamb is tougher then the authentic brown lamb...any thoughts anyone?

[Doug C]

Well, I personally don't think there's much difference in the two, I actually think it may be the other way around based on the ones I've owned. They're just not as delicate as some make out, it's mostly an urban legend. I will concur with KT though about the Todd's standard is very thin (but it's at an awesome price), his custom lambskin is also thin but I wouldn't say it's delicate at all, it's made to age quickly and has no sheen what so ever (I'm lovin' mine BTW!). Again tough lamb = Wings and the off colored vegetable tanned from Wested... everythin else is less so.

Doug C

[Heyjude7]

dark brown lambskin = veg tan leather ???? is that correct?
can one order a vaeg tanned lambskin raiders jacket from Wested?do they do that?

[The Pilot]

who makes the toughest lamb...?

Well, I made a roasted leg of lamb a couple of weeks ago... (Actually it wasn't tough at all but I couldn't resist the joke.)

[Heyjude7]

yummmmmmmmmmmm...

[The Pilot]

You should have had the shepherd's pie that came after.

Incidentally, Trader Joe's has nice leg of lamb. Preseasoned, so all you do is thaw it and stick it in the oven for an hour.

[Heyjude7]

+1 for a new Wested lamb....

[Kt Templar]

dark brown lambskin = veg tan leather ???? is that correct?
can one order a vaeg tanned lambskin raiders jacket from Wested?do they do that?

The dark brown and the authentic brown are the same leather just different colours.

The veg tanned is still experimental, the colour is too light, Indiana G has one, looks great but just too light to be right. (I think it was sort of reddy caramel)

I had a sample from Peter in a slightly darker colour but he didn't get enough of it to make many jackets. He is still trying to source the right colour AFAIK. (See pic).



If you want a heavy lambskin right now, the Wings is probably the route to go, if you like the way they are cut. Their lamb looks nice and rugged.

[Doug C]

Heyjude7 wrote : dark brown lambskin = veg tan leather ????

Where'd you get that? I suggest going back and slowly re-reading this entire thread that you started, it's pretty easy to follow really.

Doug C

[Michaelson]

Considering you PM'd me and told me you were 'hard on your jackets in actual use', this question is kind of parallel to someone asking what marshmellow is the toughest in actual use!

A marshmellow is a marshmellow, and is only as good as how it's used and treated. If used hard, it will fail. Period, so take your pick of vendors, you can't go wrong in 'toughness', just proper fit.

Regards! Michaelson

[Heyjude7]

"Heyjude7 wrote : dark brown lambskin = veg tan leather ????

Where'd you get that? I suggest going back and slowly re-reading this entire thread that you started, it's pretty easy to follow really.

Doug C "

..i was asking a question not sayin that is was.. im not too savoy on all the info you guys know so i was asking a question.. i have read through the thread and from all the answers its still not clear how durable a wested lamb is.. being that i dont know what you dudes do to your jackets and how you treat them.. some say that its great and strong and some say different.. i thought that this place was all about giving and gettin info and thats what i was doin..
sorry to annoy anyone.. didnt mean to

[Doug C]

No, I'm sorry that my post came across with an annoyed tone. I know it did and I appologize. It just seemed to me that you were ignoring the answers you were getting. Pay no attention to me . I understand your POV.

Doug C

[Heyjude7]

apology accepted Doug C.. im all about peace through Indy i have a mild case of OCD so hearing alot of things help me decide...

[Texas Jones]

I asked for my jacket to made with "thicker" hides of lamb, and that produced a pretty thick n' tough jacket while keeping with the lamb softness.

[Doug C]

Texas Jones wrote :

I asked for my jacket to made with "thicker" hides of lamb,

Who, Texas.. who'd you ask? Wested perhaps? Apparently they complied...Got Pics?

Doug C

[rick5150]

Also consider Magnoli Clothiers. I believe Indy Magnoli stated his lamb is a bit thicker than the standard Wested offering. Without knowing the density of the leathers, I am not sure if that translates into 'tougher' though... I just wanted to add another option to the list.

[The Pilot]

To KT's point - I've never torn any kind of leather with respect to my jackets. The only problems I've had were with the seams...

I have an Avirex lambskin 'Patroille de France' jacket. It has a tear in the leather just below the left handwarmer pocket. I don't remember how it got there. Maybe I snagged something? Anyway, in this case the stitching was stronger than the leather.

Not mine, but this is what the jacket looks like:

EDIT:viewtopic.php?t=9524

[Doug C]

I just tried to order my second Antiqued Lambskin from US Wings. Unfortunately they are out of stock until around the 7th :evil: . Dang-it! I have no patients. But anyway the girl on the line was like "no, our jackets don't have seems down the back" - I felt (from the tone) like she was implying they never did , so I had to educate her on the one I already have. Hope the price doesn't go up when the stock shows up.

Doug C

[Indiana Joe]

Hello Gents.. just wanted to know, thinkin about another jacket( ihave a ToD wested in goat) who makes the toughest lamb indy jacket? iwant a soft lamb indy jacket but didnt wanna get a jacket that was lamb that would rip if i brush against a wall.
any suggestions?

Heyjude, I think you need to decide which of your criteria is most important. Michaelson is right, you know (as always ) in that lambskin is lambskin is lambskin. It's just not a tough leather. You want a good drape go for lamb. I'm almost wondering if you may be asking for the thickest lambskin Indy jacket.
But you also mentioned that you don't want the jacket to rip if you brush against a wall. Well, you may want to stick to goatskin or try a cowhide or horsehide--by composition they are much more durable hides than lambskin. Just some things to consider.

G-MANN, that is one outstanding jacket! I've always loves that Wings antiqued look. You just have to make sure the jacket fits you. It's just simply beautiful.

[Rambler]

I just tried to order my second Antiqued Lambskin from US Wings. Unfortunately they are out of stock until around the 7th :evil: . Dang-it! I have no patients. But anyway the girl on the line was like "no, our jackets don't have seems down the back" - I felt (from the tone) like she was implying they never did , so I had to educate her on the one I already have. Hope the price doesn't go up when the stock shows up.

Doug C

I just received my US Wings Lamb yesterday. I was shocked at how sturdy this hide is. It is definitely comparable if not thicker to my official issue A2 in goat for thickness and weight. I had to double check the tags because I expected the lamb to feel much thinner and fragile.
The texture is very smooth and the alligator-like patterning visible on the broken-in jacket depicted above is there except it is still perfectly smooth.
The sale price of 10% off is good through the end of January.
I got an email from them that the price increase will hit February 1 so expect the price to go up for 2 reasons! This would make the lambskin $379 as opposed to $305 (before sale $339).

Here is the quote from the email:

"US Wings Sale Items...

IMPORTANT: Starting February 1, 2008, all leather jacket prices will increase a minimum of 12% and all peacoat prices will increase a minimum of 10%. As we stated last month, a large-scale buy up of leather and wool by Chinese manufacturers has caused a shortage of these materials which has affected domestic manufacturers of leather and wool garments. As a result of this shortage, US Wings will be forced to increase the price of all leather jackets and wool peacoats for 2008. January will be your final opportunity to purchase a leather jacket or wool peacoat at our current sale price before we're forced to raise our prices next month. "

All US Wings Signature Series jackets are 10% OFF and all Cockpit jackets are 15% OFF until January 31, 2008. All Signature Series and Cockpit jackets are Made in the USA. "

Another thing to note is that US Wings ships UPS and they require them to obtain a signature in person to release the package. So, if you are at work all day and no one is at home to receive it, expect to have to make arragements to pick it up yourself at a UPS depot in person. Also, you could have it shipped to work. Either way, it is something to be aware of regarding US Wings.

[Doug C]

Indiana Joe wrote:

in that lambskin is lambskin is lambskin.

No, not true...again US Wings Lambskin IS different, much more thicker and tougher.
and...

It's just not a tough leather.

, that's true in most cases but not necessarily so.

Rambler wrote :

I just received my US Wings Lamb yesterday.

;0

Doug C

[G-MANN]

G-MANN, that is one outstanding jacket! I've always loves that Wings antiqued look. You just have to make sure the jacket fits you. It's just simply beautiful.

Thanks IJ. Normally I wear a 42 jacket and this US Wings is a Small. It fits just a tad snug but the length and sleeves are perfect. I'm 5'-10" and about 175 pounds.




I also agree that this Lamb is different than any of my others, Todd's, G&B, Wested. Much tougher and thicker.

Cheers,
G-MANN

[Kt Templar]

You know what that actually looks like the back of a sheepskin jacket I have.

Maybe it's shearling without the wool?

[coronado3]

Awesome photo Gmann!

It looks like you were just dragged behind a truck!

C3

[Michaelson]

It looks like you were just dragged behind a truck!

C3

He always looks like that.

Oh, you were talking about the JACKET, weren't you!



Just kidding, G.

Regards! Michaelson

[Rambler]

You know what that actually looks like the back of a sheepskin jacket I have.

Maybe it's shearling without the wool?

Exactly what I was thinking.
This US Wings "lambskin" is probably sheepskin. This would also account for the fact that mine is a 2XL and has the one piece back; these are some pretty big pieces which would require an entire lamb hide to make each one. Plus, the leather thickness is much closer to steer belly than normal "fashion weight" lamb.

[FLATHEAD]

Maybe it's shearling without the wool?

Uh, lambskin and sheepskin come from the same animal, so the hide
should look the same.

One is the hide with the wool still attached, and one has had the wool
sheared off. The difference in the grain pattern and thickness will vary
depending upon what part of the animal the hide comes from.

But the base hide, or skin, is still the same.

WWII shearling B-3 jackets and ANJ-4 jackets ect. had to have horsehide
panels attached to the outside of the arms for abrasion resistance
because the hide of the sheep was too fragile, and would tear too easily
on stuff while the gunners and others would move around in the planes.

You can think that because your US Wings Lambskin jacket is physically
"thick" that its "tough" but it has very low tensile strength compared to
goatskin, cowhide or horsehide.

Lambskin is not tough. It will tear easily if caught on something like
a door jamb striker or something sharp. Goatskin, cowhide and horsehide
will not tear as easily as lambskin.

Why do you think they make real motorcycle jackets out of leathers such as
front quarter horsehide, buffalo hide or Kangaroo hide?

No motorcyclist in their right mind would EVER wear a jacket made from
lambskin to protect themselves in a crash. If they did, they would be
torn up in a matter of milliseconds.

The hide with the strongest tensile strength that we can get an Indy jacket
made from is the US Wings Kangaroo hide.

Even when the hide has been shaved down to 50 percent of its original
thickness, it still retains 90 percent of its strength.

Lambskin is for fashion jackets, period. And no Lambskin jacket will
take any kind of abuse like a goatskin, cowhide or horsehide jacket.

If you want a nice fitting jacket, that looks good while your at the mall
shopping or running your errands in the car, feels soft, and will distress
fairly quickly, then lambskin is for you.

If you want a jacket you can wear that will afford you some protection
against abrasions, bumps and hard ACTUAL use, then get yourself a
jacket made from either goatskin, cowhide or horsehide.


Flathead

[Doug C]

Flathead wrote :

You can think that because your US Wings Lambskin jacket is physically
"thick" that its "tough" but it has very low tensile strength compared to
goatskin, cowhide or horsehide.

Not picking a fight here Flathead, but just curious have you handled or worn the lambskin from US Wings? I admit I don't know much about tensile strength but I've based my opinion on the 4 or 5 other lambskin jackets that I've been in posession of - it is tough compared to those (and then some). Besides, the original poster is asking about lambskin in particular.

Doug C

[Bjones]

Toughness is a relative, subjective term.....some lamb might be tougher than others (lamb that it) based on the what part of the animal it is, the age of the animal when it was harvested etc. But I'd have to agree with Flathead, its not tough as leathers go. Its like comparing the hardness of pine to maple, rosewood, or purpleheart. Its just not there.

[FLATHEAD]

Not picking a fight here Flathead, but just curious have you handled or worn the lambskin from US Wings? I admit I don't know much about tensile strength but I've based my opinion on the 4 or 5 other lambskin jackets that I've been in posession of - it is tough compared to those (and then some). Besides, the original poster is asking about lambskin in particular.

If you are comparing one lambskin to another, then you can probably
pick out the one YOU think is the strongest, or toughest of that bunch.

But until you get a leather jacket in your hands made of other leathers like
horsehide, cowhide or goatskin, you can't really see what "tough" really
is.

But like Michaelson said, its like comparing marshmellows to each other.
No matter what brand of marshmellow you have, they are still marshmellows
and they are not tough by any means. One might be more stale than
the others, so you might think that that brand is the toughest. But you
are still talking about a marshmellow.

Lambskin by its nature is not strong, nor is it tough. It provides good
wind protection, and if you leave the wool on it as in a shearling jacket,
it will be extremely warm, but by itself, the actual hide is weak, and will
tear eaisly versus other stronger leathers mentioned before. Thus the
reason for the horsehide outer panels on the B-3 and ANJ-4.

If all you have in your closet are lambskin jackets, then you can only compare
them to each other. There is nothing wrong with that, and you can
certaintly compare them to each other, and pick out the one you like
best.

But no matter which one you choose, they are all still vulnerable to
tearing much more easily than the other leathers.

Don't get me wrong. I have a Wested Authentic Lambskin Raiders jacket
that I LOVE the fit and finish of, and I wear it all the time to work and
when I am goint out. It won't tear just brushing up against something,
unless that something is sharp, or protrudes out some.

But I also have a US Wings Vintage Cowhide jacket that I wear when I
go out hiking, or other adventures where I will come in contact with things
that would tear the lambskin jacket to shreads. And all that happens to
the cowhide is it might get some scuff marks on it, or some scratches,
which I don't mind, because it makes the jacket look that much more
like Indy's jacket.

I also have a buffalo hide motorcycle jacket that I wear when I ride my
VFR750, and I would NEVER, EVER wear the lambskin Indy jacket when
I rode my bike. I want the toughest, strongest leather I could get for
that, and no lambskin jacket in the world will do in this case. They are
just too weak.

But, in comparing lambskin to lambskin, please, go right ahead and do
your comparison. Its good to know the differences since you have owned
so many, and can tell everyone the differences. Its a vital part of having
a community like this. People give their opinions on the items they have,
and that helps the rest of us make our own decisions about what is right
for us!!

Flathead

[Rambler]

Ok, where do I start?
I own or have owned leather jackets motorcycle pants etc in nearly everything, horse, sheep, cow, pig, etc
I own a Hein Gericke motorcycle jacket that looks like a flight jacket save for the fact that you could drag it behind a truck and not wear a hole in it.
But the original poster inquired about lambskin versus lambskin, NOT lambskins place in the strength spectrum of all available leathers.
Also, even though it may have been used interchangably in this case, sheepskin is NOT lambskin any more than kidskin is goatskin or calfskin is steerhide. The hide of an adult animal is generally thicker and stronger than that of a juvenile.
"Toughness" (and even strength) of a leather is at best relative or qualitative, but, definitely subjective unless quantified with the various tests the garment industry uses for abrasion/wear, tensile strength etc. The machines to perform these tests are expensive and the tests very specific in terms of the size of specimens etc.
Also, since leather is a naturally sourced, manufacturing altered product, it will be extremely variable and require a large number of specimens tested to get even a general idea of physical properties of a specific type.
For example, a natural fold in the leather from a crease in the animal can snag and tear in a test long before a smooth piece from the same hide would have.
Along this line of thought, what is the source (bsides advertising copy) of the data point about kangaroo retaining 90% of strength when it has been shaved down to 50% thickness? Data like this are meaningless unless quantified with comparisons of similar tests of other species of leathers and the source of the testing.
That is to say, without any means of comparison, one could also assume that this is a property of all leathers; which is, in fact, true to a certain extent. Suede is a split leather than has had the outer "skin" surface removed, and textured and the thickness made more uniform; this reders it considerably weaker than the original hide. But, the inner, weaker surface can also be removed in a "split" leather leaving a thinner leather that will be stronger than the suede but how strong? This is fairly commonly done to get the tanned hide back side smoother and free of extraneous pieces of tissue sticking out.
But, I digress, the question was regarding lambskin jackets. My US Wings is quite thick as lambskin goes. I suspect the hides were sourced from adult animals of the same species. Without further data to support the following, I assert that this hide, being thicker and less flexible and very smooth will be "tougher" and resist wear better than a thinner, "flowing" more textured "fashion-weight" lambskin hide.

[Michaelson]

I KNEW someone would try and work a 'null hypothesis' into one of these discussions someday.

Regards! Michaelson