Deborah Nadoolman: Raiders Hat Had Chin Strap???

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:41 pm

http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.p ... post252869[/url]

I don't know how much of a bombshell this is, but someone on theraider.net said he talked to Deborah Nadoolman and asked her what she meant about the Raiders hat being an "Australian model."

She described an Australian Slouch Hat, with a chin strap and the brim tacked up on one side.

She also didn't identify the Raiders hat as a Poet; she simply said it was a hat Herbert Johnson had in stock at the time.

I'm terrible at posting links, so if the one above doesn't work, you can find this thread in The Raven's "literature" section.

I'm not sure what to think about this, myself; Nadoolman went on to say that she trimmed the brim and shortened the crown of the hat used for Raiders, but didn't mention anything about removing a chin strap. So, maybe she simply meant that the Poet REMINDED her of an Australian Slouch Hat.

Perhaps the revised fedora history will clear some of the fog. Strangely, it seems that the more we learn about this hat, the less we know for sure...

Jack

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:38 pm

Check out 3K's post here: viewtopic.php?t=24605

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:47 pm

ob1al wrote:Check out 3K's post here: viewtopic.php?t=24605

Yeah, saw it already, but thought this new info warranted a new thread.

Maybe 3k has been right all along...

Jack

Bemo · Post by **Bemo** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:46 pm

The pictures I've seen on the net of the slouch hat (the Akubura military) seems to have vent holes in the crown. While I can see where trimming the brim might remove the hook on the brim, I can't see what modifications would magically make the vent holes disappear. What thoughts do others have?

Peaceful thoughts. Or as my daughter would say "Peace out dude".

Canada Jones · Post by **Canada Jones** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:49 pm

I was reading Deborah Nadoolman's interview with Mike French & Gilles Verschuere - posted on Sept. 14, 2005. I found this excerpt interesting and relates to this thread:

QUESTION: "During the various action scenes Indy never looses his fedora. Can you tell us which tricks were used to keep the fedora in place on his head? There's a joke about this in a documentary on Last Crusade where Ford pretends to staple the fedora on his head."

ANSWER: "There were no tricks that I know of - other than the hat fit well – and it was of course part of the joke that the hat stayed on his head. Stunt men often have elastic straps under their chin painted out with make-up. Remember that if the audience must never see the stuntman’s face!"

I had never heard of the hat being strapped on before - anyone have photos of this? Or perhaps there was a chin strap on the hat and this is what they used.

The interview is here:

http://www.theraider.net/features/inter ... oolman.php Best - Canada

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:04 pm

I have been led to understand by my great-uncle Tommy(RIP) who used to work at Paramount years ago, that not only would stuntmen use chin straps that were covered with make-up, but that they also used surgical tubing placed under the sweatband in order to keep the hats on.........maybe that's where we get a bit of bulge in some of the shots we are seeing.........................

Canada Jones · Post by **Canada Jones** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:32 pm

Oklahoma Jones wrote:I have been led to understand by my great-uncle Tommy(RIP) who used to work at Paramount years ago, that not only would stuntmen use chin straps that were covered with make-up, but that they also used surgical tubing placed under the sweatband in order to keep the hats on.........maybe that's where we get a bit of bulge in some of the shots we are seeing.........................

Great idea on the surgical tubing. This might work on hats that are too big as well.
best
Canada

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:20 am

[quote="Bemo"]The pictures I've seen on the net of the slouch hat (the Akubura military) seems to have vent holes in the crown. While I can see where trimming the brim might remove the hook on the brim, I can't see what modifications would magically make the vent holes disappear. What thoughts do others have?

Peaceful thoughts. Or as my daughter would say "Peace out dude".[/qAuote]

Akubra's "Bushman" has chin strap holes but no vent holes in the crown. It has a crown that looks very close to the Raiders hat:

http://www.davidmorgan.com/proddetail.h ... umber=1606

If these hats actually were used for the film, they might simply have left the chin straps on the hats that were used in the stunt scenes.

Jack

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:19 am

eazybox wrote:She described an Australian Slouch Hat, with a chin strap and the brim tacked up on one side.

She also didn't identify the Raiders hat as a Poet; she simply said it was a hat Herbert Johnson had in stock at the time.

HJ would never stock Akubras would they...?

HJ are suppliers of military hats... when I was in the Australian Army Cadet Corps, all our slouch hats were Akubras. The Akubra is part of the standard issue dress uniform.

It seems unlikey though that another brand of hat would be on their shelves?
Forgive me if this is a stupid question...

Treadwell · Post by **Treadwell** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:00 am

I thought I read somewhere that for certain scenes/stunts, a ball cap was installed inside the hat for a tighter fit.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:57 am

I have an Akubra slouch. Board stiff flat brim and vent holes up high. I think I've seen an HJ made official military slouch somewhere. There are a lot of slouch-like fashon hats though. This is a wool HJ with a slouch hat style ribbon.

I like Nadoolman's crown lowering comment, since I pointed out the front of the Raiders crown looks like it was lowered , and I lower the front of the crowns of my hats.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:27 pm

easybox, here's my Slouch.

I'm guessing it's from the 60's. It's an Akubra sold though a menswear chain. I've seen a lot of these on ebay in this khaki and brown. The block looks Raiders worthy, but it's 5 and 7/8 tall. You'd have to lower the crown.

. This brought to mind something Antiquity Collector said about his HJ "Raiders stunt hat", with a chin strap. That the brim to crown transition was unlike a normal hat - it was very gradual. - Maybe from lowering? I never saw it till now, but look at the transition at the far left - also under the bow. very unusual looking.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:18 pm

Typo on the above post- it's 5 7/8 inches tall not 5 5/8.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:57 pm

3thou, thanks for those great-looking photos. If that was the Raiders hat, I wonder how they dealt with the ventilation holes in the crown, though-- maybe Akubra's Bushman would be a more likely suspect?

Neolithic-- I also assumed that HJ only sold hats that they manufactured--until I started hearing these other theories about the Raiders hat.

If it is true that HJ only sold their own hats, then at least we'd know for certain that the Raiders hat was not an Akubra. Or would we? It seems that with this hat, it's hard to be certain of anything...

Jack

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:40 pm

eazybox wrote:3thou, thanks for those great-looking photos. If that was the Raiders hat, I wonder how they dealt with the ventilation holes in the crown, though-- maybe Akubra's Bushman would be a more likely suspect?

Neolithic-- I also assumed that HJ only sold hats that they manufactured--until I started hearing these other theories about the Raiders hat.

If it is true that HJ only sold their own hats, then at least we'd know for certain that the Raiders hat was not an Akubra. Or would we? It seems that with this hat, it's hard to be certain of anything...

Jack

I think 3thou is on to something... but what of the Brazilian connection in regard to the felt? Did Akubra ever source their felts from Brazil? This seems unlikely. How does an Akubra Bushman end up in the London store of Herbert Johnson?

I don't know if you guys in the US know the Bushtucker Man. Very Aussie outback gear though... massive brim, very tall crown... pretty sure I never saw a chinstrap there though.

Bushman · Post by **Bushman** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:25 pm

Who doesn't know Major Les Hiddens and "the bash"!

Bushman

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:35 pm

The chin straps are easily detatched. They go on like buttoning a shirt button. Military headwear is HJ's main business now. I'll wager they made military slouch hats.

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:37 pm

Hats Direct sells the 'Bush Tucker Man' hat..........called the Sombrero. They sell it bashed or unbashed..........."Now that's a hat!!"............

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:00 am

[quote="

I think 3thou is on to something... but what of the Brazilian connection in regard to the felt? Did Akubra ever source their felts from Brazil? This seems unlikely. How does an Akubra Bushman end up in the London store of Herbert Johnson?

quote]

Doesn't Cury claim to have actually made the hat, and not just supplied the felt? Maybe, as with TOD, there was more than one supplier, and the hats with the tapered crowns are the HJ Poets, while the untapered ones are from other manufacturers.

Not saying I subscribe to any of these theories, but, especially after the recent comments Nadoolman Landis is said to have made, I do find the subject interesting.

Jack

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:29 am

A telescope crown slouch! It's termed a female model military slouch. Doesn't seem to have vent holes. I could live with something like this!

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:17 pm

Here is the claimed Cury connection (if my link works):

http://www.brazzil.com/content/view/9854/1/

It's partway down the page.

Jack

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:17 pm

Here is the claimed Cury connection (if my link works):

http://www.brazzil.com/content/view/9854/1/

It's partway down the page.

Jack

Interesting, they seem to imply that they make 60,000 Indy hats a year?!

So this would be the Cury hat page...
http://www.chapeuscury.com.br/produtos.asp

Strange- if you type 'Cury Indiana Jones' into Google, the third link down appears to have this link, but takes you to the Star Wars shop, selling their hat with the pin.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:55 am

I looked at DNL's book today. Two pages on Raiders. One page is a publicity shot of Ford in the Well of Souls. I don't think I've seen it before. The opposite page is one short paragraph describing the costume. Here's most of what she says about the hat. - "The fedora was one that I designed, based on an Australian model" ..... "Lowering the crown and shortening the brim suited Harrison's long face..." If anyone wants to ask her any questions, like maybe -was it a Herbert Johnson, or an Akubra? How much was it lowered? Was it really a slouch hat, as reported? .... She has 3 Southern California appearances this week- then no more anywhere. http://www.dressedthebook.com/Appearances.html ............. Here's a brown Akubra slouch. It's pictured at everythingaustralian.com. but when you click on the little brown one, it takes you to a Khaki one, and only offers it in Khaki....

..Didn't find any slouch hats at the Cury site....

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:15 am

That's now at least three times that she's alluded to some kind of Australian connection.

She could mean that she modeled a Herbert Johnson to look something like her idea of a slouch hat. It does seem odd that the word "Australian" pops up so frequently, though...

Jack

darthjones · Post by **darthjones** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:32 am

AAAAAAAHHHH!!!! I missed it!!!! I live 3 minutes or so from one of these appearances and didn't go. AaaaaahhhHHH!!!!

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:52 am

Hi darth. Might drive 500 miles to LA tomorrow, probably might not. Didn't you say the Raiders hat you saw had a flat brim? What should I ask Mrs. Landis if I go?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:45 pm

If they shortened the crown, this means a new brim break had to be put it. But, I don't see the telltale tracks of that happening. Unless of course, they just shrunk the height of the crown, which means they would have had a block to use to accomplish this.

At one time, HJ sold Stetson hats. So, I guess it is possible they also stocked Akubras at one time. I say possibly. The truth of the matter is the hat COULD have been a Stetson. I know they sold Stetsons, because my vintage Imperial Stetson came from HJ. I have proof of that.

But the Australian remark is interesting. There was even that rumor that the Raiders blockshape ended up at Akubra after the first film. Ron was gonna check on this to see if they had any knowledge of this. Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:51 pm

Before dwelling TOO long on this one, you might want to give this thread a read through....

viewtopic.php?t=24995

Regard! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:20 pm

Just saw that post. I look forward to what she will say. Perhaps we will hear something new! Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:31 pm

Yes - Like the Raider's hat was a dorfman she bought at Disneyland... Yes, I am aware of the timing problem there and have said it to illustrate a point...

My main question to her would be, " did you realize the hat was turned?" And, "was it planned?" Or just a happy accident?

I doubt we will get any new info, because of the passage of time. She may have already said all that she remembers, either accurately, or inaccurately. It has been quite some time......Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:47 am

I told my family I might be driving down to LA tomorrow to ask Deb a few questions. But my new Bushman should arrive tomorrow, and that's going to satisfy me, mucho.. A Bushman is a pre-lowered Akubra slouch anyway, and I throw in some crown lowering in front, so... I've got it coverd. I'd love to meet her, and see Santa Monica Blvd. and Century City... but I'm lazy and cheap! I'll settle for a new Bushman and a new Avatar.

_ mentioned Deb was after a David Morgan Australian hat. I don't know if DM carried slouches back then, but he does carry Bushmans.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:08 am

Great avatar! Hope you post photos of your Bushman when you get it...

Jack

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:04 pm

Doesn't Cury claim to have actually made the hat, and not just supplied the felt? Maybe, as with TOD, there was more than one supplier, and the hats with the tapered crowns are the HJ Poets, while the untapered ones are from other manufacturers.

There is NO BRAZILIAN CONNECTION! I got this straightened out with the owner of Cury hats personally. They made Indiana Jones retail hats for Stetson. End of story. Through bad translation and mis-information it turned into "Cury made Indiana Jones' hat!" Whether or not HJ ever sold Cury hats or Akubra - who knows. The current owner of Cury wasn't around then and he has no idea. That's not the claim he's making. All he knows is the factory made lots and lots of Indiana Jones hats for America.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:52 pm

Puppetboy wrote:
Doesn't Cury claim to have actually made the hat, and not just supplied the felt? Maybe, as with TOD, there was more than one supplier, and the hats with the tapered crowns are the HJ Poets, while the untapered ones are from other manufacturers.
There is NO BRAZILIAN CONNECTION! I got this straightened out with the owner of Cury hats personally. They made Indiana Jones retail hats for Stetson. End of story. Through bad translation and mis-information it turned into "Cury made Indiana Jones' hat!" Whether or not HJ ever sold Cury hats or Akubra - who knows. The current owner of Cury wasn't around then and he has no idea. That's not the claim he's making. All he knows is the factory made lots and lots of Indiana Jones hats for America.

Thanks for clearing that up, Todd-- it's easy enough to mis-interpret things written in our own English, let alone a foreign language. It is good to have this myth finally put to bed.

Jack

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:55 pm

The source of that 'myth' was Richard Swales himself, who told us that the supplier of their felt to make the original HJ Raiders fedoras came from Cury. True or not? Who knows, but that's the original source of the information.

Regards! Michaelson

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:21 pm

Michaelson wrote:The source of that 'myth' was Richard Swales himself, who told us that the supplier of their felt to make the original HJ Raiders fedoras came from Cury. True or not? Who knows, but that's the original source of the information.

Regards! Michaelson

Well, at least the 'myth' got a short nap!

Jack

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:23 pm

Regards! Michaelson

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:10 pm

The source of that 'myth' was Richard Swales himself, who told us that the supplier of their felt to make the original HJ Raiders fedoras came from Cury. True or not? Who knows, but that's the original source of the information.

Oops! Did I say "there is no Brazilian connection"? I-I-I meant "there IS a Brazilian connection"! I don't know how my fingers slipped...

Really, though, I hadn't heard that little detail. When did he say that? Out of all the felt suppliers in the world to name that one - that does carry some weight.

But really, disregard all those awful newspaper articles and Cury's website - Paulo does not know who the company dealt with 25 years ago - he's only run it for the last 5 years or so. Any talk about Herbert Johnson and he's totally lost. In fact, he doesn't really differentiate between the three films - they're all a movie called "Indiana Jones" to him.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:47 pm

The source of that 'myth' was Richard Swales himself, who told us that the supplier of their felt to make the original HJ Raiders fedoras came from Cury. True or not? Who knows, but that's the original source of the information.

I think Swales SUPPOSEDLY told SOMEONE, that the felt came from Brazil, and not Cury specifically. I am sure back at that time, there were several feltmakers in Brazil. There are still several in S.A. besides Cury, and probably more than just Cury in Brazil that is making felt, or used to be open to make felt. Today, there are I think 8 feltmakers worldwide. Back in the late 70's early 80's there were probably 30 feltmakers worldwide. Many of course shut down, as hats continually dropped in demand overall. Several in South Africa, have gone the way of the DoDo in the last decade.

And an aside, today, in the UK, NO felt is being made. All felt is outsourced, from Tonak in the Czech Republic, Italy, and China!!! In fact, the felt buyer for HJ went to China last year searching for a cheaply priced felt.

The best blended, or beaver felt today comes from the USA, or Portugal. At least those two suppliers in those two countries can be trusted to sell you what you ordered. The others, are as apt to send you a 50 per cent beaver body, even if you ordered a pure fur body. You really can't trust those SA countries to send you what you ordered. This does not surprise me at all.

The best rabbit comes from Tonak and Akubra, if you know what to specifiy when you order from Tonak. You can buy a 2 dollar rabbit body, or a 40 dollar rabbit body from Tonak. The difference is expoential in quality. Tonak, only makes rabbit bodies. They have one of the world's best fur mixers, but he is wasted since he can only apply his expertise towards, rabbit fur. There is an art to blending felt, and it shows in the end product. Off topic, but interesting, at least me me.

Fedora

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:29 pm

Steve, is there a temporary chin-strap we could use that you recommend?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:53 pm

Renderking Fisk wrote:Steve, is there a temporary chin-strap we could use that you recommend?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:57 pm

come on _, first you intimidate us with your shear size and now you have to freak us out with exorcist avatars??? you're not playing fair and i for one am not scared by you!!! {indy g calmly crawl's under the plymouth}

Indiana Jess · Post by **Indiana Jess** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:56 pm

Fedora wrote: In fact, the felt buyer for HJ went to China last year searching for a cheaply priced felt.

How long will it be until this felt is recalled due to lead poisoning?

Nice rabbit _. Now where did I put that Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:21 am

Steve, is there a temporary chin-strap we could use that you recommend?

Afraid not Ren. I don't use the things. They remind me too much of my cowboy outfit I got for Christmas when I was 6 years old. My Roy Rogers hat came with a chin strap. I almost choked myself to death with it, while climbing into the hay loft, and have had nightmares ever since in regards to that chin strap. I size my hats, so that if I really need a strap, I just yank the hat down to my ears. Sure, it is slightly uncomfortable, but I no longer let it bother me, as the alternitive is losing my hat to a gust of wind.

Once I went with floppy brims on my own hats, I seldom have to worry about losing the hat. Stiff, air foil brims, tend to fly off of my head, even with the hat pulled down. I was told once that stiff brims stay on the head better, but from personal experience, I can't pull that off. I was told I had to dip my head into the wind to keep a stiff brimmed hat on, but then I can't see where I am going! Literally blinded by the brim. Fedora

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:48 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:
Renderking Fisk wrote:Steve, is there a temporary chin-strap we could use that you recommend?

Where can I find screen accurate "Khaki" duct tape? Anywhere?

I size my hats, so that if I really need a strap, I just yank the hat down to my ears.

Steve, The Adventurebilt I have is just as tight and I catch your meaning, the wind has only knocked my fedora off once or twice, but didn't come off when I was riding on the top of my tree after we picked up our Christmas Tree this Sunday.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:32 am

Renderking Fisk wrote:Where can I find screen accurate "Khaki" duct tape? Anywhere?

I'm sure one of these colors should do the trick.

http://www.tapebrothers.com/category-s/16.htm

JulianK · Post by **JulianK** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:40 am

I'm sure one of these colors should do the trick.
http://www.tapebrothers.com/category-s/16.htm

Great find! Love the duct tape wallets!

HDRnR · Post by **HDRnR** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:30 pm

Maybe this is what she was talking about regarding the Australian Herbie J, I just won this on Ebay. Has the 38 Bond St. label. Made by Herbert Johnson for Brooks Brothers.
Going to Penman for a new sweatband.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... MEWNX%3AIT" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:09 pm

No. We had another member go down that rabbit hole and it never panned out.

Regards! Michaelson

HDRnR · Post by **HDRnR** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:34 pm

Not saying that this was used as the Raiders prototype but does prove that HJ made an Australian slouch type hat and she wasn't crazy in that regard.

Deborah Nadoolman: Raiders Hat Had Chin Strap???

Deborah Nadoolman: Raiders Hat Had Chin Strap???

Re: Deborah Nadoolman: Raiders Hat Had Chin Strap???

Re: Deborah Nadoolman: Raiders Hat Had Chin Strap???

Re: Deborah Nadoolman: Raiders Hat Had Chin Strap???

Re: Deborah Nadoolman: Raiders Hat Had Chin Strap???