The MKVII strap and some quiet... illumination.

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:48 pm

My new (erm, old..) MKVII and I have come to a mutual understanding. It doesn't want to be parted from it's original strap and I am inclined to agree with it.

The bag is a very nice example stamped JW & S. (B) LTD. 1943 VII freshly hand-washed and ready for the standard strap transplant (I bought a new strap especially for this new bag), but as I began to pick away at the stitching on the original strap a feeling of apprehension overcame me and I just couldn't continue.

Who was I to destroy this little piece of history and for what purpose? I took a step back and considered the situation. A disembodied voice floated into my head, like a mystical mix of Belloq and the spirit of Obiwan Kenobi 'We are simply passing through history...this IS history.'

The original strap is very rugged, well made and comfortable - more comfortable than the leather straps in fact, being wider and softer. Despite my love of Indy gear and all things Indy, it struck me that the original strap actually looks..great, at least to my eyes.

Why was the original webbing strap cut away from the movie bag in the first place? I guess it was simply down to HF's height and the need for a longer strap. Leather was probably chosen to compliment Indy's jacket and boots, the 'brown' colour also matching his general attire.

The original strap is a little on the short side even for me (at 5'11) but I really like it and I've decided just to leave it that way at least for the time being. I have other MKVII bags with leather straps attached, but I think this is going to be my new 'favourite' bag for everyday use, webbing strap intact and all. Might just leave it that way, period.

Thoughts and comments please!

Mr. Bill · Post by **Mr. Bill** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:19 pm

Strange you just posted this. About two hours ago I took the plunge and took the web strap off a MKVII I just got of ebay. Instead of undoing the stiching I (close your eyes) cut it. Just after the stiches and I figured that I could always re-stich it if I wanted to later (although it will be a few inches shorter).

Since its my first vintage bag I felt that I didnt want to leave on the web strap. I agree the web strap is nice though. If I ever get another bag the web will probably stay on.

Side note: I have a WPG replica bag and its a very close copy. Though the original bag has those strings all over it which serve no purpose now but do look "interesting".

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:33 pm

I know the feeling, Alan... I removed the strap on both my Mk VII's and it felt a bit awkward at first. Then again, there are literally millions of them out there... but, like Mr. Bill, I'll probably leave it in original condition, should I buy another.

Mr. Bill · Post by **Mr. Bill** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:38 pm

Actually I love the WPG repro. It doesnt have the divider in the middle and the strings. Great for 99 percent of the time.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:52 am

If we were talking about a very rare piece of militaria, sure, have a conscience. As a military collector, I understand such a feeling.

However, in the context of grabbing one of these readily available bags to transform into an Indy bag, I have no problem with cutting the straps.

At the end of the day, however, you already have other Indy bags with leather straps, so it undoubtedly makes it an easier choice in the first place.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:44 am

Go with your heart, Al.

Use the MK VII in good health, and if and when the strap goes on you for some other random reason, then you won't feel bad then about swapping it out. Maybe the new MK VII just needs time to let go of the strap itself...and it isn't ready yet either.

You just haven't yet taken the steps you may in the future. You've secured the MK VII, so you now retain the possible future choice.

In the meantime, like you said, you do have OTHER bags w/ leather straps for the Indy-look.

For my part, I think you have chosen...wisely.

J

prettybigguy · Post by **prettybigguy** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:41 am

If it's in good shape, by all means leave together.

As to your other questions, as far as I know, the Mk VII gas mask bag was supposed to be worn across your chest. That is why the strap is so short. The long string is supposed to be used to wrap around your body and hold it in position. The metal disk on the side was simply there to wrap the excess sting around. I'm pretty sure that the only part of the Mk VII gas mask that comes out of the bag is the mask itself, while the filter remains inside the bag and the two are connected by a flexable hose.
The short strap was removed by the costumers and replaced with a leather strap with buckle in order to lengthen the strap and possibly to match the costume design from the original Ralph McQuarrie concept paintings. If you've never seen them, I think there are some pics posted on the Indygear main site, or if you've seen the artwork used for the Raiders boardgame! In those pics, Indy has a leather strap across his chest, beneath his jacket that was probably intended to attached to his gun belt. He is also wearing a GI webbelt with a small pouch on it. My thinking is they improvised Indy's shoulder bag from this idea.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 8:12 am

I just think they thought, "Hey, he needs some kind of rough'n'ready canvas bag..." and picked out the MKVII as a likely candidate. Remember, the bag didn't exist during the period the movies are set in, so it's unlikely there was a lot of thought applied to the process of selection. From there, I think the new strap was obvious as indy would have looked dumb wearing the bag up so high on his body.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:08 am

You know, ob1, I'm right there with you. The only Indy bag I have is a WPG bag that is supposed to have a leather strap. If I got my hands on an original MKVII, I don't think I'd cut the strap, either. I figure I can always get another repro bag and distress and mod the heck out of it if I want an Indy bag, but there is something about its history which begs for the bag to be kept intact. Original MKVII's are rare, but original MKVII's that haven't been converted into Indy bags are likely more rare a find anymore. And if you already have several bags, all the better to leave this one alone.

It's the same thing with my S&W Victory Revolver and (hopefully someday) S&W 1917. I just can't see cutting the barrel down if the gun is a good shooter. Sure, maybe I can get a replacement barrel to swap out while keeping the original intact, if I wanted to, but I like the history of my original gear as is.

bink

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:56 pm

I did the same thing with one of my MK VII's, I pulled the metal piece as far down as it will go to make the strap as long as possible, and I actually really like how it looks....

I J

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:16 pm

James, that's exactly what I've done with the metal sliders - it's still a tad too short for the perfect Indy length but the original strap is very comfortable and...well, authentic.

indiana black · Post by **indiana black** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:36 pm

I decided to travel from the triad area with my wife to a conference at Myrtle Beach, SC. On the way I thought it would be a good idea to stop in Fayetteville and look through some army/navy surplus stores. I did not locate the bag at the first stop however they referred me to a location dealing in military collectibles. I looked through this location and just when I was about to give up, voila, there it was sticking from up under another type of bag...an authentic stamped 1942 mark vii also an inverted pyramid stamp divided in three sections with a P, a S, and a C in each of the separate sections. I purchased the bag for fifteen dollars. I already have a repro bag from Todd's Costumes so at this point I too will leave the authentic bag original.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:59 pm

ob1al wrote:James, that's exactly what I've done with the metal sliders - it's still a tad too short for the perfect Indy length but the original strap is very comfortable and...well, authentic.

I'm forgetting, but if the strap is clipped, not sewn at the end, I'd suggest - winging this, forgive me - going down to the army navy store and getting another length of webbing, so you can clip the MKVII strap to a short length of that, then clip THAT to the bag.

Boy, reading back, I don't follow that, either. What I'm trying to say is don't modify the strap nor the bag, but if the strap CLIPs to the bag, CLIP it to an extension instead. If the strap is under your jacket anyway, no one will notice the extension (if you put it in the back). Now it would be the right length, and you didn't modify a classic for screen accuracy or to make it a comfortable fit.

Just throwing spitballs from the back -
J

IndianaGuybrush · Post by **IndianaGuybrush** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:28 pm

The strap is sewn onto a metal ring with it permanently attatched to the bag, so the only way to remove it is to cut the stitches (or the strap) on the webing.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:25 am

Both ends?

Rats.

I've been looking at a lot of other types of gas bags looking for a 'close enough' that isn't so hard to find and I'm seeing a lot that are stiched in on one end but clipped on the other, for which the idea would work.

I guess for that to work, then, you'd still have to modify the bag in one minor way - if you unstitch the end of the strap from the D-ring on one end, then instead stitch it into a metal clip. Then the only mod would be small, especially if you managed to get a clip of similar appearance. Then for length adjustments you could always pop in an extension and be able to take it back out.

But that's still a mod, and a mod is a mod, so no points for me. Sorry, thought I was on to something.

Darn!

J

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:22 am

Again, while I applaud the preservation ideals of my colleagues here, I also want to remind everyone that we're not exactly talking about the Faberge Eggs (sp?) either

The bags are common canvas stock from WWII... just one of millions in circulation. Anyone want to take a guess as to what percentage of these millions are actually modded? ie: How many modded Indy bags are out there? I reckon it would be <10,000.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:20 am

Well, if I could find a Mk VII for a dime a dozen, then I'd be all over it! Sure, there may have been millions of these bags at one point, but then why are they so hard to find, and usually so expensive when you do find one? (Besides the whole Indy relation, that is.) If I could easily find a bunch of these bags at any surplus shop, then I would have little problem with modifying one as such. However, since I've never "stumbled" across one in person, the chances are that if I do, I'll get it and leave it as is for the sake of history. I'm content with modifying the repros, but unless I become one of the lucky ones who ends up with multiple original bags, I'll probably leave an original as is.

Just my twp pennies.

bink

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:55 pm

Soldier of Fortune seems to have a never ending supply of beaten up MKVIIs for 10 quid - or US$18 - which are just great for modding. It's misleading comments like this one from the What Price Glory dude (I purchased the entire world's supply several years ago -found them in a huge warehouse full of dusty wooden crates - and promptly sold out of them. After searching the world for years for more of them, in caves, tombs, and secret submarine bases, I concluded that they are extinct...) that seems to drive people into a spin that these have all gone the way of the dodo. They haven't.

Sincerely, I think comments like that one above from WPG are extremely misleading and, to not put too fine a point on it, downright dishonest.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:18 am

Last time I checked Soldier of Fortune, they didn't show them at all, unless they got more in recently.

bink

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:02 pm

They do still have them under Reenactors - "British WWII Equipment - Field Equipment".

Regards,
Swindiana

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:41 pm

Hmmm... then they must've gotten more in or something. The last time I looked (maybe amonth ago) I didn't see them listed where they usually were, not even the picture. But I could be wrong, too. Glad to know you can still get them!

bink

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:50 pm

Hmmm - ordered ten quid MKVII from Soldier of Fortune weeks ago I did, arrived yet the bag has not!

(sorry - been watching too much Empire Strikes back...)

skywlkr · Post by **skywlkr** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:56 pm

The U.S. WWI gas mask bag very closely resembles the mkVII. That might be something to look for.

Luke

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:26 pm

ob1al,
Please let me know whether that bag arrives with the infamous black-stripe!
Thanks.

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:30 pm

Will do HJ. The bag which started this post has no black stripe at all!

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:51 pm

Got to admit, I've cut more original straps off of bags to replace them with leather versions than I care to mention. I ALSO believe they're so many out there, it's not a problem, as if you sell the bag or give it away, just supply the original strap with the bag as it leaves. That way they're always together, and should the next owner want to reattach it at a later date, they can do so with no problems. It's not a sacred item, and there were literally hundreds of thousands of them made all over the allied world at that time, and they're still turning up.

That's my practice.

Regards. Michaelson

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:09 pm

skywlkrinc wrote:The U.S. WWI gas mask bag very closely resembles the mkVII. That might be something to look for.

Luke

It does indeed! However, there are a few differences one might want to know before getting one.

Lift the dot fasteners
No vents, instead the filter rests on a spring inside the bag
Strap sewn directly onto the bag
Rectangular or D-shaped lanyard holders

I think I remember someone on the forum doing a nice conversion of it to look more the part...

EDIT: Trevelyan did it.

No pics are left though... http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6439

Some info: http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4093

Regards,
Swindiana

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:20 pm

Well, I'm glad I've managed to stir something. And for the folks asking Al about his SoF bag which has yet to arrive, do feel free to ask me about mine which has arrived, of course...

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:22 pm

Swindiana wrote:They do still have them under Reenactors - "British WWII Equipment - Field Equipment".

Correct. But do note that they are listed as box gas mask bags (or something) and when you order, you must specify a MKVII or you're just as likely to get a MKIII or a MK VI or whatever else might also fit into this category. I know that I did, the first time I ordered, and I had to do an exchange. Not cheap when you live thousands of km's away.

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:24 pm

Rob, how quickly did it arrive after placing the order? I appreciate you are in Australia so the shipping time would be longer, but was it days..weeks..what?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:34 pm

It won't make you feel good, but it was probably about three weeks start to finish for the first bag, which was a MKVI. I returned it, and that process also took about three weeks to get a MKVII sent over.... so that was even quicker. I estimated about 1.5 weeks for my bag to arrive in the UK, and (with no perceptable lag time) about 1.5 weeks for the replacement to lob bag back here. I'd definitely give them a call or an e-mail. Maybe they have been to some shows lately, and just tied up...?

IndianaGuybrush · Post by **IndianaGuybrush** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:43 pm

I recently ordered a bag from SOF and it came in beautiful condition. Not quite mint but abuot as close as you can get without it being unissued. There was no corrosion on the metal parts, few marks on the bag other than the stamp and name, and NO black stripe!!! I haven't changed the bag yet, but it's got a date with a warm bucket of OXYCLEAN saturated water.

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:48 am

Nice to hear IG!

Even though they say they only have ones with black stripes left, they do seem to dig up unmarked ones every once in a while. From what I've heard, they come in piles...

But do note that they are listed as box gas mask bags

If searching for bags on your own, don't leave out any way possible they can be described. One way to sum a few of them up is is:

British/English/Commonwealth/ - Pattern 37/Pattern37/WWII/WW2 - Mk VII/MkVII - small box respirator/gasmask/gas mask - haversack/bag/satchel

Read like a whole sentence with any of the words above used in order. l

Regards,
Swindiana

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:28 pm

I don't suggest saying that to a live person, however...I got enough 'duh' looks just out of "British WWII MkVII gas mask bag", much less all its aliases.

Don't get me wrong, Swindiana, that's fantastic information for using in search engines, and I'm cut/pasting that info myself so I can use it. I DO appreciate that, thanks!

But when I've stopped into supply stores, I've done much better saying, "Take me to your gas bags," and aside from the few occasions when they've introduced me to their wives,

this has worked out very well.

After that I just dig away. I come across much more interesting stuff digging than waiting for them to hand me something...

Thanks again for all the variant names, though, that will help out online
J

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:17 pm

Well, if one person would go around talking like that, I guess that would be me. I did mean, like you said, that these words come in handy when typing keywords into search engines.

Wives you say?

That's another thing I've learned about these bags then.

Best regards,
Swindy

Tennessee R · Post by **Tennessee R** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:03 am

Boy, were we thinking on the same lines.
When I first recieved my MKVII, I posted this thread:
http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic ... 2daa5aa37c

It asked what should I do to remove the strap, because it was sewed on.

While my real question in my mind was:

I can't just unstitch and basically throw in a corner the strap that might have saved somebody's life, like 'getting hooked on a rock, when they were parasailing' (i.e. Jurrasic Park). So, please, somebody, tell me what to do. Please give me some justification for this, or a way of not unstitching it forever.

But, because that was too sentimental of a question, for me,

, I phrased it like you see in the link. And, I got three people telling me to break the stitches. While this didn't please me, and pleased my daddy even less, I decided to go for it, wanting an authentic 'Indy' bag.

So, I know exactly how you feel, and, I compliment you on a good thread, about a topic that disturbed even me.

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:32 am

Thanks Tennessee, nice to know there are like-minds out there.

As I suspected earlier in the thread, the MKVII with the original strap is the one I pick up every day.

Whilst these bags are not artifacts or sacred items, sometimes it's the little things that bring history to life - something as insignificant as an old bag strap can make me feel that way sometimes, a personal item fom the past rather than some towering, faceless stone monument.

It's just comes down to personal choice; I feel there is no right and wrong about this - 'just trust your instincts'.

IndianaBlues · Post by **IndianaBlues** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:30 am

Tennessee R wrote: Please give me some justification for this, or a way of not unstitching it forever.

You could remove the strap, dye it brown, add a clasp-buckle and use it as a web belt...then it's still being used (in a cold hearted practical sort of way...that engineer in me keeps trying to get out!

) and saves your life every time your pants try and fall down....

Nic

scotrace · Post by **scotrace** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:22 pm

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just got an original bag, and immediately realized that the strap would have to be damaged to remove it. So, of course, I came here for answers.

I think I'll leave it alone. Sure, there may be a jillion of them out there... but this one has obviously seen some use, and has the previous owner's name written on it (the web strap). Who am I to hack it up?

I'm thinking of shortening the original strap as far as it will go and using it as a sort of carry handle, and adding a leather strap also. Then it would be just like my leather briefcase...

Its intended use is as a bag to stick the daily (business) bank deposit into. It's a life-threatening walk of three mortal city blocks.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:40 pm

scotrace! Long time no see, buddy!

scotrace · Post by **scotrace** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:45 pm

Hanging around and reading.

Alan · Post by **Alan** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:03 am

scotrace wrote:I think I'll leave it alone.

Wimp.

I think you and I sourced ours from the same place, Scott, although mine is unissued. I haven't gotten a leather strap for it...yet. I think mine's going to come off.

scotrace · Post by **scotrace** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:25 am

You know... mine was described as having a "1960's" strap on it... so it may yet get the scissors.

The bag is... let's say *not* unissued. It spent the night in a bucket of OxyClean, and the water was as brown as coffee this morning. Now into the wash.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:11 am

Scot, DON'T drink that coffee water!

If you throw it into the washing machine, I'd put it on gentle in cold water, just to be safe. I'd probably let it air dry or put it in a dryer with no heat. I don't know that it would shrink, but I'd hate to take that chance. I'd also keep that webbing strap if you do remove it, simply because it could come in handy if you ever need to repair the loops which keep the strap rings in place.

RichardSK · Post by **RichardSK** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:39 pm

I recently received my third Mk VII from WPG. They claim to have quite a supply. My latest seems authentic enough to feel sure they are not passing off repo's as original equipment. My first bag's strap didn't last a month before it began fraying at the edges. I had no problem removing the strap which I saved and have used to replaced the webbing sewn on the bag that holds the rings; these too wore out.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:32 pm

Definitely save the strap for patching - good call, Bink.

I'd let it sun-dry if it's hot enough where you are - really solarize the heck out of it. Safer than tumble drying it, anyway. Sure, they were made to be tough, but why let your washer or dryer have all the fun ruining it?

Wash and dry carefully, and then use it as you want - in good condition they are tough, but treat fraying edges seriously or you will soon have gaping holes.

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:07 pm

Hey, man! -to that!

My current everyday bag is up for some more sewing, especially around the flap edges. Nothing that will make it fall apart though, yet.

Regards,
Swindiana

IndyTaz · Post by **IndyTaz** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:47 am

Interesting thread AL. I felt the same and carefully unpicked my whole original strap. I have it here if anyone needs one LOL I think that was the fun part. I enjoyed it more than attaching the new leather one LOL

Regards
TAZ

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:44 am

I always intended to cut the strap of my bag, but when I finally had it in my hands, I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I just looped the leather strap over the rings, leaving the existing strap attached and somewhat hidden behind the leather one. I just can't explain it, but it was almost like in those movies, where the protagonist has a gun pointed at the bad guy, and you know he should shoot him, but he just can't!

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:10 pm

Interesting thread AL.

Thanks Taz - but it's actually an old thread of mine from 2004 which has recently been revived.

Nowadays, I'm in the 'unpick, save for later and add a leather strap' school of thought.

Al

The MKVII strap and some quiet... illumination.

The MKVII strap and some quiet... illumination.

indy bag