My Herbert Johnson

bleyd · Post by **bleyd** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:43 pm

Just got up this afternoon for work and what happens to be sitting on my dining room table? A large white box. I opened it up, lo & behold it was a Herbert Johnson with a LC bash to it. (packed quite nicely I might add.)
I know there are a few that are hardcore AB/ABdeluxe fans but this hat I got is beautiful and will got lots of wear from me. I'll eventually get more I'm sure. (Kinda like my stormtrooper armor) Major props to ij1936 for the great deal. Thanks Jeff you really help make this Holiday Season a memorable one. Very stiff hat with a nice shape to it. Now to continue my hunt for a Morgan that wont kill my pocketbook.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:08 pm

I was gonna go for this if I had the money. 50 bux for a Herbie J can't be beat. Let's see some pics, my good man!

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:59 pm

Good choice !! i have a HJ too and it's my favorite hat ! i know some guys here dont like it for good reasons, but i m happy with it .the color is very close to the original thing and it 's floppy also as the real one !!

ij1936 · Post by **ij1936** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:46 am

I'm pleased to read that you're happy with it! I had originally purchased three of them back in 2003 and although they are still good hats, they are nothing like the HJ that I bought through Lee Keppler way back in 1990. I wore the first one for a couple of years and sold it to a COWian. I sold the second one past summer to another COWian and this last one to Mr. Bleyd. I have been "thinning my Indy attire herd" lately since I know that I will not wear the clothes or the hats. I still have one last set of pants and shirt from Wested listed in the "For Sale" section. I have a grey Adventurebilt that I have hardly worn and I am debating as to whether I should sell it or not since that hat is hardly worn and I don't have much call to wear a grey hat. Anyway, I digress... Mr. Bleyd please enjoy the lid!

bleyd · Post by **bleyd** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:13 pm

Once I find my camera I will take plenty of pix. The lid fits me perfect. It fits like the hat I lost in Europe back in 91. I try to wear it as often as possible and have worn it at the Post Office wharehouse several times. Keeps my head warm and everyone there calls me Indiana (put something that fits here) One of the supervisors was being silly and called me Indiana Banana. Gave us both a good chuckle. Thanks again for the hat it'll come in REAL handy at the football games this summer. I wore my ole' cheapo last year and got lots of comments. I can only imagine the compliments this time around.

BTW, if you decide to get rid of the grey one let me know as I was planning on getting one to match my 3 piecer.

Been wearing hats for years just couldn't afford to get a nice one so I just hadn't picked one up. In high school I had a few differant stetsons. One short brimmed fedora. One newspaper boy style. (Like what Sean Connery wore in The Untouchables) and a fisherman style one. Plus a few odds and ends but I wore the newspaper boy style more than anything back then as it fit my personality way back when.

Not the best of pix but here it is. I am VERY pleased with it as I know this hat will probably outlast me seeing my cheapie Indy hat is over 20 years already.
If anyone wants clearer pix let me know as my wife bought a new camera shortly after taking these pix.

Oh, also in the pix is my Wested.

bleyd · Post by **bleyd** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:55 pm

Hey, the pix worked!

rcinlv · Post by **rcinlv** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:45 am

Nice!

'nuff said

RC

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:36 am

Where did you bought it ?? SAB ? i thought the black lining was the "old" version. i have 2 HJ ( soon 3 ) with white lining...

bleyd · Post by **bleyd** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:25 pm

None other than ij1936 himself. I was a bit concerned when I heard some of the horror stories about the HJ's but after getting this one I love it and glad I jumped on it when I did. Seeing I got the fever I'm sure I'll get an AB eventually but this one will have a special place for me. Got me a Wested an HJ now just need to pick up a Morgan.

darthjones · Post by **darthjones** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:28 pm

HJ's are great, I think. I have owned several along the way and have to say that there was really a decline in quality there in the 90's but they seem to have recovered somewhat.

Its just that it will shrink in the rain.

Myself, I happen to have one of those heated, expanding blocks like the one that 3Thou often posts and I TORTURE those HJ's back up to size. But you have to grab both the brim AND the crown when pulling it down over the block or otherwise the brim, as Fedora has pointed out, will tear.

Happened to one of mine and I super-glued it back together -

Let's just say that some of my HJ's have some character.

But they get very very soft with use.

geo · Post by **geo** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:33 pm

I was a bit concerned when I heard some of the horror stories about the HJ's

So you obviously don't think it's "@#$%", as someone delicately put it on another board.

I too have a HJ and I like it very much, and I can say that all the bad press it gets is "bullcrap". There are better quality hats, but the HJ is not that much worse than any other hat, and it's the hat worn in the movies by the Indiana Jones character. (I think it's good to remember this). Furthermore HJ invented the Indy hat, and as an Indy hat, I don't want more attention to detail put into it. The fact that the stiches are a bit rough doesn't bother me, it adds character to the hat.

I see that you have an older hat, and it doesn't look like a cone. That's proof that the tapering problems have been much exagerated. Of course, it's not a rainhat, and not meant to be worn in the rain, as any felt hat is not meant to be a rain hat.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:03 pm

i love HJ poets. i will be the first to tell anyone that an HJ hat will not take the abuse that an akubra or an AB will. its kind of like my hockey helmets. i have a reebok carbon fibre composite helmet that is officially licenced for play in the NHL and i have an old wayne gretzky jofa helmet that wears your head for protection on the ice

....guess which one i use when i play a pick-up game?

the best place to get an indy HJ these days is todd's. don't waste your time calling the factory or ordering from SAB as they know as much about indiana jones as they know how to make a hockey helmet.

my fist HJ that i got from todd's was too big but has sentimental value as it was the hat i wore on my wedding day. the second came from SAB which was a birthday present from my wife. its a very good hat IMO. it steamed into the TOD bash quite nicely. the ribbon always bothered me though as it was too light of brown to look screen accurate. i pulled the trigger on a 3rd HJ from todd in the right size this time and i'm giddy to get that thing over my kettle.....like i said before, there's no better feeling than mating your wested with an HJ (for me).....you can hear the raiders march when they come together!

geo · Post by **geo** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:16 pm

Todd's shaped hats look very well, I don't think you'll need to modify anything if you order it shaped by him. I returned mine for a larger size, and I got one from the new batch. The ribbon is the same (as per Todd's site, not as in the pictures on the SAW site), but the felt is better. It's softer and the brown color is "browner", and more accurate. Also, there a good colour contrast between the felt and the ribbon.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:33 pm

It's softer and the brown color is "browner", and more accurate.

I have seen so many shades of brown, all called Sable from HJ reblocks, mostly made in the 90's.

My take on the current HJs? The main weakness is another company is making them, than the ones who made the original Raiders fedora. The only thing they have in common is the name on the sweat and liner. In other words, it ain't a real HJ. Those are long gone, unless you can luck up and find one on ebay, and have deep pockets. In the same way as a modern Stetson is not really a real Stetson. Just because they have the name, means nothing. Except, that they have the same name.

Now, to most, this is enough. To me, I want one like the original Raiders fedora. That hat could take it. I want one that was made by the original folks. I love the Stetson name, and own many vintage Stetsons. I love the HJ name and own(ed) a few of the vintage ones. The ones with the right crest on the liner, and the good rabbit felt they used to pride themselves in. But those days are long gone. I would rather own another brand of hat that looked like the Raiders fedora, and one that you could actually take on adventures, without becoming a dunce hat. If the name HJ appears on the crest, that would make my decade.

But just to buy a hat because it had that name, for me, is something I cannot go back to. Especially when you are buying the name only. And that is what you are doing. The current hat has as much in common with the old HJs, as the modern Stetson does to the original Stetsons. Not even in the same ballpark, but they do share the same name. Stetson was bought out, and HJ was bought out. Both are run, not so much by hatters, but my marketing guys, who know nothing of what hats are supposed to be. Protection, while maintaining the shape of a hat. This is my opinion.

What I would love to see here, are pics of the HJs on some heads, once you have worn it for a couple of weeks. I want to see just how close it looks to the Raiders fedora. Convince me, please. Pictures speak a thousand words. Regards, Fedora

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:29 pm

fedora, i'll admit that i mainly buy HJ's for the name and its heritage, not for the quality at all.....but you also know how much i love the AB.

i am currently waiting on my open crowned HJ from todd....should be hear any day now. i've picked up some tricks on shaping the brim correctly from playing with my first HJ and also my akubra. i was hesitant in making it a raiders hat because i know that the crown is really hard to shape considering its not the right block.

depending on what the open crown is shaped as, i may be willing to take you up on that challenge.

i have some pictures from my wedding that i had to look twice at as i couldn't believe how my oversized HJ looked very raiders-esque. i am going to try to recreate that with a hat that fits this time.

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:52 pm

personaly, HJ is my favourite hat ! of course the new hj is far away the "real" one from raiders but the same thing as temple or last crusade,

i prefer to have the real thing from ToD or LC than just a copy of a raiders style. ( same thing for the whip : i prefer to have a today morgan whip than a raiders copy from an other seller...)

nevertheless, here are a one year old HJ from Todd in a raiders style

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:59 pm

nice hat doc. thanks for the pics and for giving me more encouragement that todd's hat can be a decent raiders hat (not just an awesome TOD or LC hat).

i'm gonna start the kettle!!! now if those idiots at canada customs can just get off their lazy a$$es and get me my shipment i'll be off to the races.

WhipDude · Post by **WhipDude** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:35 pm

Your HJ actually looks nicer then most other HJ's I see. Nice snatch. I kinda like the bash too. It's not over done or anything.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:48 pm

Bleyd: That is one nice looking HJ you got there! Definitely one of the better HJ's I've seen. It's always nice to see HJ's out there that can still capture that Indy look.

Doc R: That has to be one of the finest "Modern" HJ's I've ever seen. It really captures "Raiders" in a way I did not think was still possible from the current HJ crop. Nicely done!

Indiana G: You're getting ANOTHER HJ?! Man, you're turning into a regular Herbert Johnsonholic! I'm eager to see what you're able to do with this one, as I was recently considering an attempt to make myself a nice "Raiders HJ" project hat, but decided against it (for now, you might change my mind if you can pull it off!)

-GCR

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:14 pm

okay...okay...no pressure now.....gotta:

a) prove to the master hatmaker that an HJ is not a junker hat
b) convince GCR to join the HJ camp

...whew....no pressure.....i think i'm gonna need some help from the hat gods here.......

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:26 pm

Indiana G wrote:okay...okay...no pressure now.....gotta:

a) prove to the master hatmaker that an HJ is not a junker hat
b) convince GCR to join the HJ camp

...whew....no pressure.....i think i'm gonna need some help from the hat gods here.......

Well, don't sweat that one, buddy. I don't really like to consider myself in ANY particular "hat" camp. An HJ is definitely on my list of hats to get at some point (and has been for years), but I've been bumping it further and further down as other hats come onto the scene. I'm still waiting on three AB's and I recently ordered a rabbit felt fedora from Jimmy Pierce...plus I was thinking of getting an AB Deluxe sometime this spring as well, so the gear budget might not leave much room for a $250 - $300 HJ. But rest assured, I'll get me one someday...and if you can work some "Raiders" magic with yours, without any serious side-effects, I might just have to make it a priority!

-GCR

ttocsic chemical · Post by **ttocsic chemical** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:39 pm

Three AB's AND a JP! I thought I lived well!

I only need one more hat in gray with a dark band and one of Mark's ABD'S and my collection is on line with the LOW end member! Not the "average", REAL affiicianado that has several k invested. Yet, in for a penny, ... Perhaps, after a period of time, I too will be able to say that; "sure, I have a second mortgage on the house - but what the ####!" $\:D/$

geo · Post by **geo** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:10 am

Nice hat, Doc! My HJ from Todd looks the same as yours. Glad to see that after one year it still looks good.

The only thing they have in common is the name on the sweat and liner. In other words, it ain't a real HJ.

Fedora, look at Doc Riviere's hat and at Bleyd's hat, can you still say that the only thing they have in common with the Raiders hat is the name?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:57 am

Fedora, look at Doc Riviere's hat and at Bleyd's hat, can you still say that the only thing they have in common with the Raiders hat is the name?

Sure, I can say that, and say it with complete honesty. I can see the kicked in taper on Bleyd's hat, even with it sitting on that surface.

On Doc's hat, while it looks better than the 30 or so HJs I have held in hand, I want him to post a shot of it looking into the camera. The oblique shot shows me the taper, while the looking down shot minimizes the perception of that taper. Always does, as many here know.

Look guys, I have been looking at HJs for the last 10 years, all kinds of HJs. I also love the HJ name just as much as you do. And, my opinion of the HJ is the same as it was BEFORE I started to make hats. So, I have not changed in my accessment.

I will stand by my opinion that you are just buying the name, because I have seen Akubras that looked more Raideresque than what has come out of HJ since the 1990's. If you are willing to forego the Raiders look over the brand name in the hat, that is your business and your money. But, understand, that not many folks are satisfied, over time with what the HJ presented as far as the Raiders looks goes.

When I am presented with an HJ that really is the Raiders block, you can be sure I will acknowledge it, and will be delighted to do so.

Until then, the hat at 7 or 8 oclock on this page from HJ is the Raiders blocked fedora.

The ones at 4 and 5 oclock is the LC block, and what you get today.

Here is a real Raiders HJ.

Can you not see the difference?

And another one.

Here is an open crowned HJ Poet

Here is my new HJ

If you want more pics to see what a real Raiders fedora looks like, I probably have more.

I am armed fully to support my evidence, as I have 10 years worth of study pics to back me up.

You want to know what a real HJ crest looks like? Here ya go.

Regards, Fedora

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:21 am

Personaly, i have no doubt with what you said fedora about a Raiders HJ hat ! that i said is "indy hat" about the HJ and not raiders hj ! and i said also, the best raiders hat will be a HJ with a AB block !

i just tryed to shape my todd's HJ as raiders. that looks better than one i bought from SAB...

i have perfectly understand the difference and change between raiders and ToD / LC

bleyd · Post by **bleyd** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:34 am

One of these days I may get an AB but this one couldn't be beat. It fit me like a glove when I put it on and just last week we had high winds and it didn't budge. (If anyone here has ever been in the desert know what kind of winds I'm talkin bout) My old licensed Raiders has nothing on this one nor any of the others but I was in High School and told myself I would get a real one someday.

Yeah, it is a pretty good feeling wearing the HJ with my Wested. Everyone at work can tell right off it's an Indy hat and that in itself gets me all warm and fuzzy. Keeps my noggin warm in this weird cold wheather we're having in Vegas. 25 degrees Brrrrrrr.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:31 pm

Sorry Doc, I misunderstood you. When I think of Indy hats, I always think of the Raiders fedora.

Bleyd, man, if you are happy with the HJ, your quest has ended, and no need to buy another brand. What is important is if you are happy with the hat. That is all that matters.

While it may appear I am just a hatter who chirps in on other brands, please understand that is not my intention. I did this prior to making hats, and being a vendor only makes some think that is what I am doing. I was around these forums a long time before I ever started making hats. Heck, I reblocked hats for free prior to offering my own, and this allowed me to see so many differnt HJs fromthe 1990's. The clincher to me on this block shape issue is due to our Admin's HJ he got from Lee years ago. It was the first genuine Raiders HJ I had seen, as the others had been the LC block shape And it was the catalyst that started my quest and later offering my vision of that magical fedora. And whenever the color issue is brought up, like "this is the exact color" I have to laugh. I have seen so many different shades of Sable come out of HJ by the reblocks I have done on them. Unless someone comes up with an original, non faded Raiders HJ, we may never know for sure what shade of brown was used.

Now, I must share something about the current HJ. I had to reblock mine due to the taper on the bow side of the hat. In the reblocking deal, I of course stabilized the felt, the way a hatter would normally do. Then I treated it with about 20 light coats of my water repellant treatment. What I ended up with was a fairly stable hat. It would not taper if worn in a light rain like it did when I originally wore it. In fact, it did very well in holding the Raiders shape. At the time, I did not understand why this was so.

Then I found out how HJ was blocking their hats and it was obvious why and how they would taper, sometimes before you ever recieved it. I will not go into all of that, how I found out, etc. But, suffice to say, the felt is not stabilized like it traditionally is done, which warranted my comments on how they must not have experienced hatters making the hats, and are staffed by guys with business degrees, and employees that just run the hatmaking machines used.

The hat business used to be like the grocery business. Management usually started out bagging groceries and stocking shelves, so by the time they made management, they knew the business from bottom to the top.

The hat trade was just like this. I doubt it is no longer this way.

Now, the company that makes my bodies has a President that apparently was brought up in the traditional ways. I won't ever forget, and will be indebted to the President who had shut the factory down for Xmas 3 years ago, when I was in desparate need of 6 dozen hat bodies. Apparently he came in on a Saturday, and run my bodies for me, so I would not have to wait until Jan. to have them made. And, to date, they were the finest bodies that I ever bought from them. The president actually knew how to run the machines that generate felt. And did so. And that is why I have received so many good bodies over the years from the company. When the President is involved in what is going out the doors, you can be sure you are in good hands.

I guess my point is, I can take a modern HJ, and stabilize the felt(if the brim does not rip off when I pull it over the block) and actually turn the HJ into a hat that can be worn like any other hat. Will it last a lifetime-probably not, but you have to expect this from modern rabbit felt. Is it worth the money? Yes, IMHO. Of course the trouble is getting a hatter who will risk having to replace the hat, if the brim comes off in the reblocking. Of course, if the hat had originally been stabilized and compressed at the brim break, this would possibly solve that problem. A compressed felt is stronger than a non compressed felt. But this is old hatter stuff. Skimp on making a hat properly and it may show up an inferior felt when in fact the felt was ok, just not worked right. Fedora

bleyd · Post by **bleyd** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:33 pm

My hat quest isn't over as I'd like to have a few. One for everyday to beat the #### out of. The other to say I have an HJ. Does anyone know how well these fare in the rain? I have no problem wearing them in the rain so long as it doesn't go soggy and flat on me.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:39 pm

bleyd wrote:My hat quest isn't over as I'd like to have a few. One for everyday to beat the #### out of. The other to say I have an HJ. Does anyone know how well these fare in the rain? I have no problem wearing them in the rain so long as it doesn't go soggy and flat on me.

Based on current HJ lore, I would not attempt this.

The usual rule of thumb (again, based on HJ lore) is something like:

HJ + Moisture = BAD

Not to say anything bad will happen, and I'm sure folks have tried it without any horrendous results, but if it were me, I wouldn't temp fate. HJ's (at least modern HJ's) are not known as resilient, wear 'em anywhere kinda hats.

-GCR

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:59 am

tone,

that looks awesome. how'd you get the crown looking so tall and get the reverse tapering happening?

i think i'll go play with my HJ again....i didn't think you can get results like that. great work buddy!

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:16 pm

[/quote]

Ah yes. Those blue & gold crests are in some of the hats the look at in doc r's Archives footage.

Indiana Kev · Post by **Indiana Kev** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:24 pm

Tone - you should start a business offering the raiders bash! Nice work on that HJ!

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:26 pm

Fedora wrote:

Here is a real Raiders HJ.

Boys, I think I'm in love!!

Indiana Cromeens · Post by **Indiana Cromeens** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:55 pm

DO NOT let your HJ get wet under any circumstances! I have owned two of Todd's in the past few years I've enclosed pics of what will happen, It's best to keep it in a box and bring it out now and then, but the HJ is definitely a secondary hat, grab an AB or your HJ will look like this in no time.

This HJ is no more than three years old, it took about six months to get that way from regular use, it got rained on and tapered horribly, shrank from too much sun, and the felt tore at the top of the pinch. Modern HJ are just not durable at all. Todd's HJ are really nice just they belong in a box or in a display, My other HJ stays in a box and is a beautiful LC hat IMO But it stays in a box and see's no indy-style use what so ever, I just wear it once in a while with a suit.

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:38 am

HJ is not a rain hat ! there is an advise on the Todd site if i well remember...

Indiana Cromeens · Post by **Indiana Cromeens** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:45 am

that along with the proof I just posted and GCR said
HJ + Moisture = bad

Indiana Cromeens · Post by **Indiana Cromeens** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:39 pm

Tone that HJ looks great, all of your hats always look good. You are a master of bashing my friend!

Post by **Dalexs** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:44 pm

Funny, it looks just like every other Indy hat here...

bleyd · Post by **bleyd** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:04 am

Good to know they wont last in the rain as I would have worn it out when it was pouring. Isn't that what a hat is supposed to do protect one from the elemants? Ah, at least I found out before mine was ruined. I still wear it to work nearly everyday. I actually prefer the stiffness of it as opposed to my very flimsy one that I retired after over 20 years.