Dating a Herbert Johnson hat

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:43 pm

Does anybody know of a way to figure out, visually, the age of a Herbert Johnson Indy hat if there is no documentation?
Chewie

moses · Post by **moses** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:35 am

Ha, I misunderstood the title of this thread. I thought you wanted to know the sort of places to take your HJ and what wine to order

Fedoraman · Post by **Fedoraman** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:24 am

Steve (Fedora) is the real expert in this area, I am sure he will chime in soon...

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:54 am

I believe it's Dakota Ellison who's the real HJ expert here. He's been dealing with vintage HJ's for some time now.

At least I hope it's Dakota. D'OH!

If you did a search you should've been able to find something on this subject.

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:37 pm

If the paper tag is still under the sweatband it should have the last two numbers of the date the hat was built. If not the older ones are from 38 New Bond Street (pre 1965). Indy era -- 13 Old Burlington St. 1990s can be 30 Old Bond St. or 54 St. James St. where they are still as part of Swaine Aidney Brigg.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:51 pm

Steve (Fedora) is the real expert in this area, I am sure he will chime in soon

Thanks, but Dakota holds that distinction. Now, what I am interested in, is exactly when did they change the traditional HJ crest. What year? That would tell us when they started outsourcing the hats, which was sometimes after Raiders. I am afraid, they may have not actually made the TOD and LC fedora, but some other hat factory. That would explain the change in blockshape as well, and also the felt. This all came to me recently when Marc was sourcing the old HJ ribbon, and he got the inside info that would not be mad public by HJ. That is, they just sell a hat with their label made by someone else. I believe now, that the Raiders fedora was the last true authenic Herbert Johnson Poet. It had the blue and gold crest with the horned dog, or whatever it is in the crest. All of my vintage HJs came with this very old HJ crest design. Fedora

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:34 pm

I'm just guessing, but we know that by LC, they had switched to the burgandy hexagon and by the time they were at 30 Old Bond St., they had switched again to the burgandy oval. My belief is the move from 13 Old Burlington was the beginning of sourcing hat shells from Borsalino and the takeover of Swaine Aidney Brigg further dampened HJ's aquiring quality felt bodies. I know the "fuzzy" Poets were sourced from France in the early 70s. At one point before Swales retired he was supposedly going in with a bunch of Brits who had bought the old equipment and were going to get felt from Spain and make the hats like they used to. I don't know if this really happened.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:40 pm

My belief is the move from 13 Old Burlington was the beginning of sourcing hat shells from Borsalino and the takeover of Swaine Aidney Brigg further dampened HJ's aquiring quality felt bodies.

That sounds logical. I think that in the 70's, they were still making hats, but only as a front shop operation. They were sourcing the raw bodies from someone at that time, but true to front shop fashion, they were actually making their own hats. The UK had many felt manufacturers prior to WW2, and HJ may have even had a back shop at that time. That is, they made their own felt bodies. WW2 ruined the UK felt industry, as the remote areas of the British Empire had to start making their own felt and hats, that previously England had supplied. After the war, these factories were in place, had the market in hand and the feltmaking in the UK was dead. There may have been a few left, but as far as I know, there is no felt made in the UK today. I think they have basically outsourced raw bodies since the 50's. But they still made hats from these bodies.

Did we not hear once from someone, somewhere that Swales had said in some of those moves of the shop, the backstock of the sweats with the previous address were used up before new ones were used? So, you could buy an HJ with the old address, as long as the old stock lasted. This would cloud the dating of HJs from this era. It would just depend on how long it took for HJ to sell hats made with the old address on the sweat. Fedora

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:05 pm

I got that from Swales. That "shaggy Poet" was dated 1972, but still had a 38 New Bond St. liner and sweat, though they had moved to 13 Old Burlington St. 7 years before. Does make dating a tad difficult.

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:07 pm

Fedora wrote: I believe now, that the Raiders fedora was the last true authenic Herbert Johnson Poet. It had the blue and gold crest with the horned dog, or whatever it is in the crest. All of my vintage HJs came with this very old HJ crest design. Fedora

The colors are wrong, but maybe the crest is right? Here's the only liner shot I could get.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/michaelga ... pg&.src=ph

What do you all think?
Chewie

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:53 am

Here is the one I was talking about.

Fedora

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:09 am

That's what mine looks like as well, Steve. Same crest, but I have the plastic cover yet and the sides of the liner in my vintage HJ are white too. If I remember correctly, the sweatband says 38 New Bond Street.

I'll have a look at the paper tag yet. I only remember it says, that this hat was sold through Lock & Co. (no joke).

Regards,

Marc

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:52 am

I just double checked and the sweatband says 13 Old Burlington St, so I'm a happy owner of an Indy Era HJ...

Regards,

Marc

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:52 pm

Well, I decided to go for the HJ. It wasn't that expensive, and I expected it to be a 1990's hat. Looks like I was right. The address is 54 St. James. Still, it's a nice hat, soft and crushable like Indy's!

I have no idea what model HJ it is, and it does not look particularly Indy-like to me, except for the tight front pinch. It's pretty tapered (by design or age, I'm not sure which), the ribbon is too light, and the crown is a tear drop.

So, an Indy hat it's not. But I think it will make a great old banger, and it wears very nicely. Maybe, after I wear it in a bit, I'll have it reblocked to get some of the taper out.

Chewie

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/michaelga ... /my_photos

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:46 pm

Well, I hate to reply to myself, as it were, but...

I've been playing with the HJ for the last 2 hours, using cold water and cold memory. I just started trying to make it look more Indyesque, and I found myself pushing for a Crusade brim... but a bit wider! I'm also trying to work the teardrop out and get a center crease. I can't make the crease very deep because the crown is too low, and the taper is more Temple of Doom. So I guess I'm going to end up with a hybrid.

At any rate, does anybody have some good, clear pictures of a Last Crusade and/or a Temple of Doom crown that shows the pinch from above? I could use some reference material. Any help would be appreciated.
Chewie

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:31 am

For an HJ, it looks remarkably like a Dorfman

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:54 pm

Kind of scary, eh Whiskyman!?!

The almost flat brim and teardrop crown just didn't speak to me. Here's the link again, but I've added photo's of my reshaping so far. Unfortunately, the pics of me wearing it came out really bad! And what a taper!

Chewie

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/michaelga ... /my_photos

Canyon · Post by **Canyon** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:24 pm

Haha. For a moment there I thought you were dating a Herbert Johnson as well.

Fedoraman · Post by **Fedoraman** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:45 pm

Wow Canyon - you must be drilling deep into the archives to pull this one out

IndianaChris711 · Post by **IndianaChris711** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:33 pm

Someone must have a lot of time on their hands

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:04 am

It was late... one too many lagers.. she thought she found e-harmony for Indy Fans! Perfectly understandable mistake.