Indy's whip: period accurate?

Shawnkara · Post by **Shawnkara** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:30 am

We've had the discussion about the other gear. We know the jacket was based on a flight jacket, but is not an authentic match to any one in particular. We know the bag was ahead of its time; WWII, etc.

What about his whip? Has anyone ever seen a whip from that period that actually looked like a Morgan? Is this one more thing slightly "ahead of its time" for the films?

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:12 am

Hey shawnkara,

I can say that the Morgan style Indy whip was not around in the times of Indy. There weren't really any Kangaroo hide whips here in the states other than those that were purchased in australia.

Over here it was mostly cowhide, and even then cowhide 4 and 8 plait swivel handle bullwhips, without any braided bellys. the braided belly construction was originated in australia, and at that time I believe it was really only one belly. And even though there were probobly some kangaroo hide bullwhips being made in australia, they most likely were made for the tourist trade with a single Greenhide or cowhide plaited belly.

The double plaited belly construction came about in part by David Morgan and by I believe it was Tom Hall, I'd have to look it up to be sure. If my memory serves me right, David got into the whipmaking thing after a trip to australia, and that's where he met Tom Hall. And I think that wasn't until sometime in the 60's. Also I think the Australian bullwhips before it had longer handles.

I haven't read up on the history in a while so don't quote me word for word fact on any of this but I'm pretty sure this is correct.

I'll have to double check it when I get the chance. If any of this is incorrect I'll edit my post. And if you like I can get a bit more in depth with it.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:11 pm

I'd say Paul is right about Morgan's development of the Indy whip. So, reading Morgan's book, you'd figure that his particular style of whip has only been around since the 70s.

The only thing I can add is that several years ago I was in a museum in Craig, Colorado, dedicated to a single collection of cowboy memorabilia and there was a whip in the collection that looked a lot like the Indy whip, and I remember the card saying that it was from the Vaudeville-era, which would be 1900-1930 or so. Sorry that I don't have any pictures. I remember that it looked like it was made from kangaroo.

I could probably find the contact information for the museum to see if they are still around. Maybe they'd be nice enough to take some pictures and send them to me.

-Adam, www.winrichwhips.com

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:54 pm

I remember in the John Brady video that John took out a bullwhip at one point. He said it had been made for him by Tom Hill, either in the '40s or 40 years ago, which would put the manufacture date in the late 40s or early 50s. The whip was very similar to an Indy whip, but with what appeared to be a 10 or 12 inch handle. It certainly looked to have the thickness of a whip with double plaited bellies.

Jim

Gater · Post by **Gater** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:32 pm

well, in theory, if 'Indy' whips were being made in Australia, as a world traveller, he may have picked up a few dozen while there, since he uses them in the field, anyway.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:37 pm

Great topic. You know if a whip like the Indiana Jones bullwhip had been around during the 30s, it would have most likely been a special order. If any one ever finds one, I would love to see it. As far as I know David Morgan who worked with Tom Hill is the one who really pioneered the American style bullwhip made with the Australian construction techniques and the addition of multiple plaited under belly’s. While the development of the Australian stockwhip really took off in the late 19th and 20th century, and exploded in quality during the depression, traditionally the Australians used few bullwhips and they were not like the short handle American style bullwhip. The handles would range form 16 to 20 inches or so and the whip was lighter made to handled more like a stockwhip. They also used short bullwhips for yarding cattle but bullwhips where never that popular down under. I seem to remember reading the Australian style bullwhip we know today didn’t really come into the picture until after WWII, when they started out being made for American performers and tourist visiting Australia. Guys like Rex “Snowy”Baker who came to the U.S. and trained Douglas Fairbanks Sr. back in the 1920s used primarily stock whip, but later on when he was working with guys like Tim McCoy and Al “Lash” LaRue in the 50's he was working bullwhips too. But even then many of them where still using the swivel handle bulls.

Dan

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Hey Jim you are right it is Tom "Hill", I always got him mixed up with Tom Hall, who has a great book full of turks head knots.

And I did a bit of research last night, and I pulled the scanner out of the basement, dusted it off and started scanning some stuff, so I'll post it in a lil while.

I scanned a picture of the Tom Hill bullwhip that Morgans Indy is based off of. It looks much more like the Catwoman type whip with at least a 10 inch handle. And I'm pretty sure it only has one belly.

More to come later.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:49 pm

Indiana Gater wrote:well, in theory, if 'Indy' whips were being made in Australia, as a world traveller, he may have picked up a few dozen while there, since he uses them in the field, anyway.

This is a very good point.

There's a Heritage Park (http://www.heritagepark.ca/visitor.htm) in my town where everything is an authentic representation of the late 1800's and up to the 1920's. In one section of it, there's a display of a tack shop and hanging in it are about four very indyesque whips in the process of being made - these things are ancient and easily predate the 1930's. (I looked it up and it's dated 1906)

When it opens for the season in May, I'll take some stills for you guys to see.

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:48 pm

I wish there was a "Watch topic" buttons sometimes. I don't have anything to contribute, but I'm posting just so I get the email notifications of updates.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:54 pm

I wish there was a "Watch topic" buttons sometimes. I don't have anything to contribute, but I'm posting just so I get the email notifications of updates.

o gotta say I got a good laugh out of this one.

.......and today I needed a laugh today.

thanks

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:03 pm

jpenman wrote:
I wish there was a "Watch topic" buttons sometimes. I don't have anything to contribute, but I'm posting just so I get the email notifications of updates.
o gotta say I got a good laugh out of this one.
.......and today I needed a laugh today.
thanks

I guess I did contribute, just not to the topic

Glad it was what you needed.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:23 pm

indy doc PM sent to you.

K on the run · Post by **K on the run** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:19 am

Could this be the museum you visited Adam?
http://www.museumnwco.org/index.php

regards
-K

K on the run · Post by **K on the run** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:21 am

BTW. no photo of the the whip on the website

-K

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:24 am

I guess that must be the musuem I went to, though I don't recognize the pics of the exterior or interior. But I remember that most of the collection was photographed and put into a book about cowboy gear (though no whips, except riding quirts, made it into the book).

I'll email them and see what I can find out, if anything.

-Adam

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:43 pm

Here are some scans that I pulled out of morgan's book.

It would seem that David was originally importing these bullwhips from Tom Hill in australia before he created the Indy two belly whip. As Dan mentioned, these were being made in australia mostly for the american tourist trade, and David was importing them to supply the american performers.

This whip was most likely made in this fashion:

It is my understanding that at that time, this was the comon way of making a bullwhip for the tourist trade. With a single Greenhide or Redhide plaited belly attatched to the handle in this manner, and an overlay in 8 or 12 plait kangaroo.

And, here are some clips I scanned from Morgans book talking about the development of the Indy Whip. I have the entire chapter scanned if anyone want's it. I also scanned some interesting pages on the whipmakers trade in australia during the early 1900's if anyone wants to see them.

I really enjoyed going back through my books, I haven't read them in a couple years. I'll probobly start going through all the old whipmakers and plaiters association journals all the way back to the first one in 1984. I'll let ya'll know if theres anything patricularly interesting or if I find anything on the bullwhips that were being made in australia during Indy times. I vaguely remember reading something about bullwhips in that time period, but I haven't read through those in such a long time.

I hope you all enjoy reading this stuff as much as I did.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:22 am

That is fascinating! Thanks for sharing it, Paul.

I have some period whip research that borders on the weird side. Stay tuned.

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:19 am

There are bullwhips used in not one, but several Bing and Bob Road movies, made in the early to mid-1940's. While I don't think Bob and Bing actually went anywhere other than Hollywood backlots full of a jumble of anything non-American to make the unsophisticated viewers of the time believe they were globe trotters, they apparantly visited Australia, Singapore, Zanzibar, and Morocco, among other places.

I can't find which movie had it, but one of the Road movies featured Bob and Bing in Australia, running away from extremely sterotypical locals, one of whom was waving a coiled bullwhip at the two Vaudevillians in anger, before they escape the Land Down Undah for the main destination in the film. This is the film I was looking for, but I can't find which one it is.

In 1940's "The Road to Singapore", Bob and Bing sit in on a floor show, in Singapore, starring a Mexican bullwhip artist. Like I said, Americans at the time had little knowledge of the world outside their borders (much like their contemporary makers of foreign policy! *rimshot!*), so this must've seemed completely legit. The big swarthy foreigner in the whip show knocks cigarettes out of Dorothy Lamour's mouth (incidentally, having black hair, Hollywood producers must've thought she was very ethnic and cast her as Indonesian, North African, and whatever else 'foreign' and people seemed to buy it). Anyway, about the whip used by the Mexican Singaporan... It appears to be about a 10 foot black bullwhip, 8-12 plaits, with a handle about 2/3 the length of an Indy whip handle. The handle appears to be bare wood and there is a metal collar transitioning the wood to the leather. It almost appears to be a swivel handle but it looks too heavy and solid for that. It's a pretty fancy unit, though. Undoubtedly the performer's own and not from an old prop box at Universal. Do check out this film, as the whip show is pretty impressive.

In 1946's "Road to Utopia", Bob and Bing find themselves in the Yukon during the Gold Rush - though I haven't seen the whole film yet, I was just scanning for that Aussie whip scene in all my collection of Road movies. They do appear to be using VERY Indyesque bullwhips (with higher plait counts) whilst on dogsleds throught the picture. It's difficult to say for sure, though as they're wearing giant fur mittens in many of the scenes, but once in a while you get a glimpse of a whip hanging off the back of a dog sled.

That's all I got, I'll try to find the 'Angry Aussie' scene in the future.

Do any of you Alaskan Gearheads know if they still use bullwhips in those heritage style dogslead races you always see on the ol' TeeVee?

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:13 am

I've got footage from another one of those movies, where Bing and Hope are in a bar somewhere and Anthony Quinn is putting on a bullwhip show with a lovely assistant. Maybe it's 'The Road to Morocco'. Even though an knowledgeable person could tell that Anthony wasn't doing the tricks himself, the way they showed him to crack a whip still looks convincing as he does throw the whip in a couple shots.

When Quinn's assistant starts making eye's at Bob during the show, Anthony cracks the whip and shatters a beer mug in Bob's hand! I thought that was pretty cool. The bullwhip that Anthony is using looks pretty cool too, though there really aren't any close-ups of it.

-Adam

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:10 am

Whoa! THAT was Anthony Quinn?!

and yes, there was clearly a lot of creative editing... particularly in the cigarette trick - there wasn't even a whip in the shot.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:06 am

Great stuff Paul, Thanks.

You know I have a hunch that the handle of that Tom Hill bullwhip is made from Tohiti cane. That was a pretty common handle material even for Aussie bullwhips. I don't know if Terry Jacka ever worked with Tom Hill back in the day, but Considering how similar the whip is to Terrys bullwhips, it makes me wonder as he uses Tohiti cane for his handle foundations. Anyway, just thinking out loud

Dan

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:58 pm

Dan,

Mr. Morgan told me that Terry Jacka was Tom Hill's apprentice. You can see why the appearance is so similar between their bullwhips...

Also, again according to Mr. Morgan, Terry used cane for the handle foundation of his bullwhips. However, he thinks Terry is now using a fiber glass handle.

Finally, he also told me that his first bullwhips were very similar to Tom Hill's. He decided to make something different, and the Indy bullwhip was born!

Regards,

Bernardo

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:26 pm

Great stuff Paul, Thanks.

You know I have a hunch that the handle of that Tom Hill bullwhip is made from Tohiti cane. That was a pretty common handle material even for Aussie bullwhips. I don't know if Terry Jacka ever worked with Tom Hill back in the day, but Considering how similar the whip is to Terrys bullwhips, it makes me wonder as he uses Tohiti cane for his handle foundations. Anyway, just thinking out loud

Dan

Dan,

Mr. Morgan told me that Terry Jacka was Tom Hill's apprentice. You can see why the appearance is so similar between their bullwhips...

Also, again according to Mr. Morgan, Terry used cane for the handle foundation of his bullwhips. However, he thinks Terry is now using a fiber glass handle.

Finally, he also told me that his first bullwhips were very similar to Tom Hill's. He decided to make something different, and the Indy bullwhip was born!

Regards,

Bernardo

Dan and Bernardo,

I agree about the Tohiti cane being used by Hill and Jacka, although I do suspect that terry is using something different currently, but I guess the only way to know for sure would be to go to the source and ask.

Also, if my memory serves me, at Mark Allens wall of whips, I believe he has a Tom Hill whip, as I remember Mark saying something about Tom Hill and David Morgan, and I remember seeing a couple of whips on the wall that looked almost exactly like the Hill whip pictured in Morgans book. He may even have one of the early whips that morgan made that is similar to Hill's. He also has some extreemely early whips from a variety of makers including joe strain, peter Jack, and some aussie whipmakers. He even has a few of my first Indy Whips up there.

Good Thread!

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:53 am

Bernardo thanks. I had a feeling he did, its also posted on David Morgan’s web site under Terry Jacka’s products. I probably read it a thousand times; I guess my memory must be getting bad.

I did a little checking around, According to Mark Allen, Terry is either using graphite or fiberglass these days, David told me he thought he was using nylon. Go figure, either way looks like he is not using Tahiti cane anymore and that probably explains why the handles have looked a bit different in the past couple of years, thinner and longer and more uniform (Hey just the opposite of David’s, hmmm?). I know he uses fiberglass for his stock whip handles though. I would ask Terry but he is really hard whip maker to get a hold of. He likes to spend his time making whips and not being bothered with a lot of questions. I guess he prefers to let his whips speak for them self or leave answering questions up those selling them. All I have a postal address, if any one has more let me know please. I am bit curious myself now, one of Terry’s 8ft Australian bullwhips is on my to get list in next few months, Mine are the older ones with the cane foundations.

I have only seen a few pictures of Mark Allen’s wall of whip in Las Vegas. None where clear enough to really see individual whips that well but to be honest I would be more surprised if he didn’t have one of Tom Hill's or David Morgan’s early whips. It is an amazing collection, one that I would love really photograph for documentation, though I would have to be careful not to drool on them.

Its really interesting to see the evolution of these bullwhips over the years, I thought I would post this photo for fun, it’s 6ft David Morgan bullwhip from the late 90’s with 6 ft 8 plait swivel handle bullwhip from Bucheimer from the early 50’s. A few years after the Indy movies would have taken place but its the oldest one i have and was a very common style of bullwhip avalible in those days in the U.S.

While they are obviously two very different bullwhips you can start to see how this style of American bullwhip would have influenced David in the evolution of his 450's series bullwhips.

Dan

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:24 pm

I had a very nice call from Russel Schultze yesterday, and he confirmed that Terry Jacka is using solid fiberglass for the handles.

And we had quite a long conversation about Indy Whips and older whipmakers, and he mentioned that he believes that Tom Hill's original bullwhip design was sort of copied or based off of bullwhips he had seen made by Roy Arnold(sp?) and another whipmaker who's name I can't remember, that were made back in the late 40's early 50's. So perhaps there was some indy esque whips back in that time, but again those were being made in australia.

If Russel is on here, I'd like to say thanks again for the call, and if you want to elaborate at all, or if I have gotten anything you said wrong here, please do.

And Dan,

I'll see if I can find my pics I have of the wall of whips, from when I took them in 2001 or 2002. But unfortunately I don't think I snapped any close pics of the top section of the wall where those whips would be, also my digital camera at the time was a piece...

And thanks for posting that pic of the 6 foot morgan and the bucheimer.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestwhips

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:18 pm

Thanks Paul, Glad you liked the picture.

I appreciate that confirmation on the fiberglass handle foundations; did Russell happen to say when Terry made the switch from cane to fiberglass? I would be curious to know.

Unfortunately the name Roy Arnold doesn’t ring a bell to me either, but then there where so many whip makers in Australia back then it is hard to keep track of all of them, heck its hard to keep track of all the ones today let alone the ones 60 or 70 years ago. As I understand though many of the whip makers working at that time where more along the line of trade whipmakers because they where supplying whips to catalog retailers. Where as today its more a product placement thing, Very few if any whipmakers back then would have retailed the way Mike Murphy or David Morgan do. So there where a lot of really great whips made, but we have no way to know who made them. Ok, I better stop before I really start to ramble

. If you do find the wall of whip pictures, please post them or send them my way via email, I’d like to see them. Thanks.

Dan

dr. tyree · Post by **dr. tyree** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:34 am

One way to determine the period correctness of Indy's whip is to check movies made during the period of his adventures to see what was available in Hollywood, at least. One example is in the Republic serial Spy Smasher (1942) which has a whip in it VERY similar to a Terry Jacka Aussie bullwhip (minus the wrist loop). To me, this is a similar whip to Indy's, just with a slightly longer handle.
I'll post a frame grab if I can find it.
tyree

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:55 am

Tyree, I haven’t seen that film, if you can post some screen captures that would be great. I’d like to see what they where using back in 1942. I don’t know of many if any films prior to the 1950s that where using Australian “style” bullwhips, Australian stockwhips yes, but not bullwhips. Most of the stills and scenes for example from Lash LaRues films which started in 1945 show the old swivel handled bullwhips being used. Roland Meyers aka Whip Wilson who also used a the bullwhip as a trademark in his films, sometimes used a higher quality Australian style bullwhip but again he wasn’t making his whip films until after 1948. Joe. E Brown might know more, he is one of the few remaining whip artists and actors working with whips in the early 50s that as of a few years ago were still around on the whip crackering scene. Unfortunately the last time I tried to get a hold of him his e-mail address was outdated and his web site was gone.

Dan

dr. tyree · Post by **dr. tyree** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:28 am

OK, I will give this a try. Here (hopefully) are some frame grabs of the whips in Spy Smasher. The one I was referring to is used to escape from a dungeon by climbing out and appears to be a long handled Australian bullwhip with no wrist loop. The other one is used by the Nazis to torture Spy Smasher in a different dungeon and looks like a short target whip with a very long, heavy handle sporting a wrist loop similar to Indy's. Indy fans should see this film if you can get a copy. A great Republic serial.

Tyree
[/img]spy1.jpeg

dr. tyree · Post by **dr. tyree** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:29 am

I guess someone is going to have to coach me on the whole "adding pics to this forum" thing...

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:33 pm

Tyree,

It's very easy, once you know how to do it! that is...

Asumming you have a web site that hosts your pics and you have the URL (for example: http://www.tyree.com/mypics/spy1.jpg) follow these steps:

1.- Clic on the "Img" buttom that appears above on the second right (on the post reply dialog box)

2.- Copy and paste the picture's URL.

3.- Clic again on Img*

4.-That's it. Clic preview to check if you did it correctly.

Hope I put things simple.

Regards,

Bernardo

dr. tyree · Post by **dr. tyree** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:20 am

Spy Smasher whips:

[img]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/ ... 4/spy1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/ ... 4/spy2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/ ... 4/spy3.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/ ... 4/spy4.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/ ... 4/spy5.jpg[/img]

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:59 pm

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:03 am

Thanks for putting up those images. That is certainly an interesting looking bullwhip. The image quality of the film makes it difficult to see much detail, but it does look a lot long a long handled Australian bullwhip especially in the very first image.

The bottom image though, i don't know

I think it might be just some type of punishment whip, not really a bullwhip.

Dan

dr. tyree · Post by **dr. tyree** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:09 am

Sorry, guys, they somehow turned out a lot darker than the actual film is. You can see a lot more in the movie, which I do recommend you pick up a copy of, it is way fun. The last whip pictured is totally different from the one I was referring to, just included it for laughs. The whip Spy Smasher uses to escape from the Vichy dungeon is extremely similar to a Terry Jacka bullwhip with no wrist loop.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:11 pm

That’s ok, it certainly looks like a Aussie Bullwhip to me. The longer handle would been more tradition on a Australian bullwhip back then compared to the bullwhips David or Terry make today, it would have been more like what we would call a target whip. I’ll have to try and find a copy of this movie, it looks entertaining. Thanks.

Dan

astroboy · Post by **astroboy** » Sat May 06, 2006 12:34 am

We do have the best product over here in OZ ...

montana · Post by **montana** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:45 am

I know I'm digging up an old thread, but I've found some pictures you might enjoy of 1930's whps *dramatic drumroll* Zorro:
1937

1939

1944

Can these be called whips? The 1939 one certainly can!
I also asume that the whip the 1944 lady is holding would be a tough one to crack.

montana

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:52 pm

Some ones been visiting zorro.com

Great pictures though. The first picture is of John Carroll from "Zorro Rides Again" which I believe was one of the movies that influenced for Raiders of the Lost Ark. The second is Reed Hadley from the serial, "Zorro's Fighting Legion" and the last is Linda Stirling from "Zorro's Black Whip". The whips in the first two pictures look like stockwhips of some sort. The whip Linda Stirling is using is a different type of whip, its connected to the handle with a sling swivel, which is a swiveling knot style keeper of sorts, there are a couple pictures of this style whip in the first edition of David Morgan’s book whips and whip making.
Speaking of Zorro there is a new Zorro television show on the Spanish-speaking network Telemundo. http://tv.telemundo.yahoo.com/zorro/
My Spanish isn’t very good but there’s some whip cracking in it, although the bullwhips they are using look pretty rudimentary.

Dan

K on the run · Post by **K on the run** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:00 am

I love the way Linda Stirling is holding her gun

-K

montana · Post by **montana** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:58 am

do you think the old-time zorro actor actually cracked his whip or did they put in the sound afterwards. Would be cool to know.

montana · Post by **montana** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:14 am

Hey, I just thought of an important thing. What were the crackers/poppers made of back in the day. Nylon wasn't around in the 1930's (thank god, I hate that @#$%).
montana

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:25 pm

Horsehair would be my guess...........

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:41 pm

I've heard of using silk for poppers back in the day. I tried horsehair once and it didn't work very well, but I took the hair from the tail and someone later told me you need to use the hair from the mane.

With the sound, I bet the actor probably did learn to crack a whip, though I think Dan Trout has mentioned on the forum how hard it is to get good audio for a whip crack. In the Indy films they put the sound in afterwards, so they probably did the same in those films, if anything just to make the whip sound better.

I think Linda Sterling is holding a stockwhip as well, it's just shot from a different angle so it looks different from the other whips in the photos.

-Adam
www.winrichwhips.com

montana · Post by **montana** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:28 pm

You've got mighty fine eyes Adam! I would never have noticed that! Thanks!

The horsehair would be a problem. It would be pretty hard to get, and expensive too.
Maybe cotton would work, but it wouldn't hold up very well.

montana · Post by **montana** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:32 pm

You've got mighty fine eyes Adam! I would never have noticed that! Thanks!

The handle doesn't look to be covered with leather, maybe it's glossy black wood? Don't know what whip handles were made of back in the day.

The horsehair would be a problem. It would be pretty hard to get, and expensive too.
Maybe cotton would work, but it wouldn't hold up very well.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:34 pm

Most of the old time actors would learn how to work a whip at least enough to make it look believable, Douglas Fairbanks Sr. who portrayed Zorro in 1925 and the son of Zorro in 1925 was taught by Rex Baker and used stock whips made by Cecil Henderson actually became very good at it. However back then the films where still silent. As Adam said, Most likely the whip crack sound was readded to the later films and serials, as they are today are today to improve volume and clarity

I had read in an article from back in 1924 that they where making their poppers from dental floss. Silk was another popular choice though that worked well for poppers, and stockmen and drovers were known to carry extra silk handkerchiefs to make poppers out of. Horse Hair was also often used too, but it was supposed to come from the mane of a male horse only

. I’ve played around with horsehair poppers, they work ok but I find it a bit stiff and brittle, I still prefer nylon or polypropylene. Horsehair isn’t that hard too get even today though and its that too pricy. A lot of Powwow type supply stores carry it in bundles for Native American related crafts and regalia, that’s where I usually get from anyway. I’ve also seen a lot of vintage whips that just had twisted cotton twine for poppers. Cotton works ok but wears pretty quickly like polypro.

Here is another picture of Linda Stirlings whip,

It gives you a better look at the whip and the way the thong is connected to the handle.

As for Whip handles, they would have been made from a lot of the same materials they are made from today, I.e. wood, cane and steel tubing, which was either covered or uncovered. I would guess Zorro’s “black whip” was made from polished hardwood which is/was not that uncommon.

Dan

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:28 pm

Hey Dan,

Thanks for posting that second pic; the whip looks a lot less like a standard stockwhip there. To me the lash still has the shape of a stockwhip, it almost looks to me like the took a stockwhip and cut the handle down and tied the lash back on so the whip would have a short handle like a bullwhip.

It's hard to tell from the photo, but the handle could be covered with leather. The braiding in the lash is probably as smooth as the braiding that would be on the handle, and in the picture the lash looks as smooth as the handle.

The only reason I wouldn't think that she'd be holding an American whip with a sling-swivel is that by that time I'd think machinery would have taken over much of the agricultural work from animals, so the whips used for that work would be less common. Also, as we see from the other two pics, there's a history of Zorro performers using Australian stockwhips, so the prop masters would be more likely to have a stockwhip around for promo shots.

Granted, the connection of the lash to the handle looks loose, though I'd think that the alteration was done just to have whip with a short handle, and not to make a whip that really performs.

-Adam

montana · Post by **montana** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:55 am

BullWhipBorton, did you read the 1924-article on the net? If you did, could you post the link? And who were these Cecil Henderson and Rex Baker felals? Where can I find more info on them?
And also, dental floss was made out of silk back in the day, so I imagine it would be the same effect as with the silk handkerchief.
And if anyone here have or knows where to find pics vintage stockwhips, I'd love to see them. Wasn't it so that vintage stockwhips had longer handles?

montana · Post by **montana** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:55 am

Just found this, pretty interesting:

"So much noise was made by the women screaming and the Parson hammering, that the stockman was able to launch one crack of his stock-whip on the Parson's back before his arrival was observed. The Parson sprang up into the air like a shot deer, and then took to his heels. He did not run towards the open plains, but made a straight line for the nearest part of the Rises. As he ran, Frank followed at an easy canter, and over and over again he landed his lash with a crack like a pistol on the behind of the black, who sprang among the rough rocks which the horse could not cross, and where the lash could not reach him."
Following pic and text is from the book: The Book Of the Bush. It was written in the late 19th century.
This book show the real tool the whip was. It's mentioned loads of times. I wonder if it was made out of cowhide or kangaroo. Probably both since kangaroo was readily available.

I'm planning on dowloading Zorro's Fighting Legion. Then I'll be able to get screengrabs and see how Zorro handles the whip. You can download the entire series (legally) here: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query ... g%20Legion

Indy's whip: period accurate?

Indy's whip: period accurate?

coin

Re: coin

indy

period whips

pics of spy smasher whip

another try

whip pics