My "indy look" 8 plait cowhide whip from WSP

S William · Post by **S William** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:04 am

I hope this works, my first time posting pics.

I just received from Western Stage Props the 8' cowhide (8 plait) whip. Before I invested money in a more expensive whip I thought I'd try this one out, it cracked rather well after a few initial tries.

S William

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f323/ ... 20f3dd.jpg

kriegfeld jr · Post by **kriegfeld jr** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:38 am

Nice whip! How would you compare it to a roo whip?

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:56 am

Is that one of Bernardo's whips? I seem to recall he made cowhide whips for WSP.

S William · Post by **S William** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:46 am

I have never cracked a roo hide bullwhip (but want to at some point). So I can't say.

All I know is that it is their best cowhide bullwhip, from what they say. I am not sure who makes it, the tag says on one side BRAIDED COW HIDE, Handcrafted in Whip-Tanned Cowhide and on the other; Plait:8 Length:8' Color: Natural Tan Style: Indy

This whip is well balanced and easy to crack once it is loosened up.

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:13 pm

S William,

It looks like it might be one of my whips, but I'm not 100% sure...

You see, I don't know if I'm the only whipmaker making the cowhide Indys for WSP, but I can tell you I was the first to offer and make those whips for them.

In any case, it's a great idea to buy a cowhide whip as a first whip. And if it looks like an Indy whip, you have the best of both worlds: the durability of a cowhide whip (you tend to abuse your first whip), coupled with the reasonable price cowhide whips carry (compared to their roo counterparts).

I personally love the whips I use the most, and I tend to use more the ones that didn't cost me an arm and a leg!

Below is a pic of a couple of WSP Cowhide Indys I made some months ago, and my latest Indy whip, a 12 plait 8 footer.

Hope you like them,

Bernardo

www.delcarpiowhips.com

S William · Post by **S William** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:33 pm

Bernardo,

Those whips look like their right on the money. Its neat to actually meet the person who made my whip. The color of the fall is right on, so I'm pretty sure its one of yours. A very good whip for beginners.

At some point I'd like to get a roo hide 12 plait whip, since I'm familiar with your craftsmanship I'd like to get one from you if possible.

S William

jabahutt70 · Post by **jabahutt70** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:29 am

Nice looking whip there, SW. Whether or not Bernardo made the whip, it sounds like you got your money's worth~enjoy it!

Hey Bernardo, do you have plans for a website? Would enjoy seeing more of your stuff.

Steve.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:18 am

S William. That is a fantastic looking bullwhip. I have though about getting one myself eventually as a better quality whip for using in harsher conditions. I would be curious to hear how it handles and holds up to use over time.

Bernardo, I didn’t know you where making them for WSP. The photo of the two you posted looks great. I’d really like to the see the handles just a bit longer, but that’s my just personal preference. As good as those 8 plaits look, That 12 plait Indy looks even better

Amazing work. All the best

Dan

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:56 am

S William,

I'm glad you like your whip. I use a very strong cowhide for the falls, that is light blue in color. If your whip has a fall like that, chances are I made your whip. It should give you plenty of satisfaction in your whip cracking endevours. When you decide to upgrade to a roo hide bullwhip, I'll be more than happy to make you one.

Steve,

I've been having my website project on the back burner, as I was delaying it mainly because I did not have the time to make it. However, I have more time now, and I'm going to start with the design within the next few weeks. I'll post the address here on COW when I finally get it finished.

Dan,

Thanks for the kind words. The handles of the Indy whips are 8 inch long, because that's what Mr. Morgan uses on his whips. What's your favorite handle length?

Regards,

Bernardo

www.delcarpiowhips.com

Indakin · Post by **Indakin** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:38 am

i really like your raiders type whip with the darker brown knot. I told Adam at winrich to do my whip more like that, in a light brown with a dark brown knot, verse the almost black knot that is pictured on his site. How much do u charge for your whips by the way?

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:05 pm

Dan,

I forgot to mention that I'm finishing a Morgan-inspired 16 plait "Classic" Bullwhip, so if you liked the 12 plait Indy, wait 'till you see this one!

I'll post some pics hopefully tomorrow.

MorgonKenbur,

When you use a vegetable-tanned leather, is possible to make a light brown whip and dark brown knot, as seen in ROTLA. If you use chrome or alum-tanned leather, both colors are going to be much darker because of the pigments used to dye the leather. You may want to ask Adam to make your whip with vegetable-tanned leather.

I've been making whips almost exclusively for WSP for almost two years now, and I will keep doing so, but now that I have more time, I'm going to start making whips for retail orders as well. Right now I'm working on what models of whips I will offer, and my price list. I'll keep you posted.

Regards,

Bernardo

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:37 pm

Thanks, Bernardo, thanks a lot

The one thing that makes the IOAB bullwhip a 'budget' whip is that you don't get EXACTLY the colors that you want. Geez.

I do a lot of custom work, and if a customer asks me for something specific, I do my best to comply, but the IOAB whips aren't really 'custom.' About the darker 'Raiders' knot, I've only done that on a whim on a couple of whips just because I thought it looked kind of neat. Of course then I had to go off and post a pic of a whip with a darker ring knot with a comment saying 'with darker 'Raiders' ring knot' and now everybody thinks this is a standard option.

I should also say that not all IOABs look just like the pics on my website. Since I end up having to use various tannages of cowhide in them, the whips tend to vary in both exact color and size/diameter. This also contributes to the 'budget'' classification.

If you want a custom whip, I start doing custom work with 8-plait cowhide whips and then it goes up from there to 24-plait kangaroo.

I've even made one whip to the same specs as Bernardo's WSP whips, and I even sell them for less than WSP, but nobody seems to want to buy those from me. I posted a pic of that whip in the bullwhip forum a while back.

So, if somebody wants a custom whip from me, email me and we can probably work out just about anything you want, but keep in mind that IOABs are not custom whips. If you have an EXACT idea of what you want, I suggest you be prepared to spend a little more money and get a totally custom whip.

Okay, the ranting is over.

Bernardo,

Good luck on the 16-plait whip. Are you putting in three plaited bellies? Any bolsters?

-Adam

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:45 pm

Here's a pic of the 8-plait 8-ft WSP-inspired bullwhip that I made a while back. If I had to do it again I'd probably put more lead in the butt to make the knob bigger. I think this whip sold for $170.

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:56 pm

Sorry Adam!

and I though I was helping...

What I meant was, you want this extra "raiders knot" and veg-tanned leather? sure! just add $ xxx.

I didn't know what kind of whip MorgonKenbur ordered from you. I know most Indygear members order your hyperbest-selling IOAB whip, and I do know its one of the best-value whips out there. I wouldn't ask for anything extra, because I know it will increase the price.

OK. I feel better now...

About my 16 plait Morgan style "classic" bullwhip, I made it in cowhide, so there's no room for 3 bellies. I used the proven construction of one belly plus bolster and reinforced transition zone. I was able to match the handle dimentions, diameter and weight of Mr. Morgan whips.

You'll see it tomorrow. I'm still not sure if I will sell it though...

Bernardo

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:51 pm

Geez, I thought you were going to make it out of kangaroo. Now that I know it's out of cowhide, you must be nuts

I know I've made at least one 16-plait cowhide bullwhip, and a couple 16-plait deerhide bullwhips. With the cowhide whip I made the point in buckskin so I could carry it down to an 8-plait point.

I did make a cowhide snake whip once, in the Texas style where you start at the fall, and I made it 16-plait, going from 4 to 8 to 16.

MorgonKenbur ordered a 10 ft IOAB, and I think I know what colors he wants, but with cowhide it's always hard (or very expensive) to get the exact colors I want. A cowhide supplier of mine who keeps his prices down by ordering only mixed pallettes of cowhide was getting some very nice cowhides last summer, but then he stopped getting them. When he had them, they were $2 a square foot. Now if I still want to get the same stuff, it'll cost more than twice that.

I suppose if I switched to using only veg-tanned cowhide like you, my whips would be more standarized, but they'd also be more expensive.

-Adam

Indakin · Post by **Indakin** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:10 pm

adam i want my whip to look like this if possible, but i know the main whip will be the medium brown, which is fine. But i wanted the knot to have a contrast like the above pic, close in color but still different. This whip color looks great. But its and IOAB and ill stop being picky! I know its budget lol

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:23 am

Bernardo, I don’t really have a particular favorite handle length, I do perfer 11 inch + handles for certing things like fast paced multi cracking, but it really just depends on the whip and what im doing with it at the time. I have always been very fond of the 8-inch handle foundation on the David Morgan style bullwhip and I really should have been more specific, by saying I prefer look and feel of the older DM handles, the more traditional Indy design where the keeper knot is a bit higher and handle section is less stocky and compacted like this on this one,

Compared to the way he makes them now. I know the 8 inch spike hasn’t changed over the years, but I suppose im set in my ways

. It could be just the illusion of the wider lace making the handles on your 8 plait whips look shorter then that actully are because the photo of your 12 plait the handle looks really good.

I am looking forward to seeing that 16 plait you did. I was surprised to hear your making it out of cowhide. With a few exceptions, I don’t know many whip makers able to or for that matter interested making such finely plaited whips out of cowhide. That leather your working with must be stong not to snap when your pulling on such such fine lace. More power too you.

Dan

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:04 pm

Dan,

Great Morgan! I purchased my first one back in 2000, only 3 years after you, and mine has the knot closer to the butt, as seen in many modern Morgans...

The cowhide I use is very strong. The last two batches were specially so. That's why I tough it might be a good idea to make a fine stranded 16 plait version of my whip. I was able to pull as tight as I normally do with no problems.

To all,

It took me a little longer to finish the whip and take the pics, but they're finally here! Let me know if you like them

Transition zone plaited in eight-seam work, like Mr. Morgan used to do on his 16 plait whips.

12 plait vs. 16 plait.

6 plait versus 9 plait wrist loop. (those strands are 2mm wide!)

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:45 pm

That looks beautiful, Bernardo! What weight was the hide you used? I'm shocked that you were able to get cowhide cut thin enough for 16 plait without it breaking.

Jim

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:31 pm

Thanks Jim!

The thickness of the leather is about the same for both whips: 1.4-1.5mm. My friend at the tannery has improved his formula, and I'm also satisfactorily impressed by the strenght of the leather he's producing. Also, I selected a pair of the best hides for these whips.

Bernardo

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:29 pm

Way to go Bernardo!

That whip looks really good!

I see you kind of added some of your own design touches to the plaiting of the overlay and the butt knot. I know in the DM 16-plait whip the hand part was done in short herringbone and the knot was the same as on his regular Indy whips.

-Adam

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:19 am

Bernardo Wow, That 16-plait bullwhip is just gorgeous. Very stylized version of Morgan’s Classic bullwhip, I like it. Nice job.

That DM bullwhip pictured was actually made in 1996 (I mixed up my whips

) Here is a comparison photo with my 96 bullwhip next to another one he made me in 99.

You can start to see some of the gradual changes he was making, the added bolster in the handle and the knot move down a little lower on the handle.

Dan

racerx · Post by **racerx** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:17 am

Really amazing looking work Bernardo,
how does the action of the 16 plait compare to that of the 12?

And are you considering selling the 16 plait version in the future.

All the best.

Jim J.

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:16 am

Bernardodc wrote:Thanks Jim!

The thickness of the leather is about the same for both whips: 1.4-1.5mm. My friend at the tannery has improved his formula, and I'm also satisfactorily impressed by the strenght of the leather he's producing. Also, I selected a pair of the best hides for these whips.

Bernardo

Well, I guess I'm finally going to have to start getting my skins from you then!

Jim

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:32 pm

Thanks a lot!

Is very flattering to hear compliments from talented whipmakers like you guys and experts like Dan.

Adam,

When I started designing this whip in my head, I though about making a cowhide replica of DM's "classic" bullwhip. However, as you know, I missed the opportunity to save the pic that appeared on Morgan's web site, and I coundn't find someone who had the pic in his computer.

With a vague image in my mind, I remembered that the thong where it leaved the handle was made in 8-seam work.

I knew the turk's head knot DM used was the same, and I tied the same knot on my whip, twice! but it didn't look too good with the rest of the whip, so I decided to tie the 7 part 6 bight instead, as I think is aesthetically better suited for the finer plaits on the handle...although a 11 part-10 bight turks head knot like the one Paul Nolan did on the snake whip showed elsewhere wound't be bad either

In addition I braided a fine stranded wrist loop inspired in one of my peruvian style rawhide bullwhips.

Finally, my whip has a 6-strand point, instead of 8, because I can't cut the strands any thinner without breaking them, and an 8-strand point with that lace width would end up in a too thick tip. Like you said, I added some personal touches...

Dan,

Thanks for that pic! I can see why you favor the older DMs. How many DMs do you have?

What's the upper whip?

Would you be so kind so as to measure the handle on the oldest Morgan at the base of the handle just above the turk's head and before and after the ring knot? I just thought about making an "old style" cowhide Indy.

Thanks!

Jim (Jarrell)

It has a slightly smoother action than the 12 plait. I performed the "Nolan break-in test"

where you raise the colied whip upside down and let it roll down by gravity: it flowed smoothly all the way down like an already broken-in whip. I should mention I applied some tips that Russell Shultz gave me on making the whip tight but smooth-rolling.

At this time, I'm not sure if I'll offer this model whip as a regular option.

Glad you liked my whip! I'm putting it on ebay later on today.

Jim (Markell),

Anytime amigo!

Bernardo

jabahutt70 · Post by **jabahutt70** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:09 pm

Outstanding work, Bernardo! Never having seen a pic of a Morgan Classic 16-plait myself, I am impressed. The 8-seam plait work I'm sure helps strengthwise w/ the transition, but also to me, gives a gr8 visual sharpness to the whip. Thanks for the pics.

Steve.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:10 pm

Just a few Bernardo. The top whip that is partly edited out is a Joe Strain Indy bullwhip.

The measurement of the handle section between the two knots is just a hair under 5 inches with a girth of 2 3/4 inches. This handle is a little shorter then on the Raiders bullwhip Sergie inspected a few years ago which was 5 5/8 inches.

Also I might have one or two photos of DMs 16 plait bullwhip saved, email me if you want them.

Dan

rebelgtp · Post by **rebelgtp** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:53 pm

wow that is a very nice looking whip

i can tell i'm going to start spending alot of money collecting whips i already have 2 on order with adam lol

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:07 pm

Dear Benardo,

Nice looking work there!

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Pitfall Harry · Post by **Pitfall Harry** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:50 pm

Those whips look great.

So what's the real difference between owning a 12 or 16 plait cowhide whip over owning the same in Kangaroo? Are the roo whips really stronger like some people say? Those cowhide whips look pretty sturdy to me and look like they'd take a beating without any problems.

Also, aren't the 16 and 24 plaited whips more "fragile" as far as ruggedness goes? I thought I read somewhere that those type of whips would be more likely to break during rough use.

PITFALL

Mola Ram · Post by **Mola Ram** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:35 pm

Bernardo,

Thats the only picture i could find.

Indakin · Post by **Indakin** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:45 pm

Pitfall Harry wrote:Those whips look great.

Also, aren't the 16 and 24 plaited whips more "fragile" as far as ruggedness goes? I thought I read somewhere that those type of whips would be more likely to break during rough use.

PITFALL

Thats exactly what adam told me. The more plaits, the more you have to take care of your whip, the 4 plait IOAB can take more of a beating then a higher plaited whip. Thats why i ended up still with just the 4.

Pitfall Harry · Post by **Pitfall Harry** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm

Mola Ram wrote:

Bernardo,

Thats the only picture i could find.

Good lord! That whip looks like it's on steriods!

PITFALL

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:47 pm

Pitfall, first the premise is the higher the stand count increases the flexibility. That the individual narrow stands will flex less working together, which results in less wear over time, but still make for a smoother lively action though out the whole whip. Kangaroo hide is stronger then cowhide. It’s also a denser and thinner, which makes it ideal for cutting narrow for fine plating work as It will still stay very strong even with all the stress created from the flexing, stretching and compression that occurs when a whip moves and cracks. There is a trade off with durability. Yes kangaroo is stronger, but more prone to damage from nicks and cuts and abrasions especially as the strands get narrower. Cowhide tends to be more resistant to those same scrape, nicks and abrasive wear as it is thicker. However as you cut cowhide narrower, you begin to significantly lose strength. You have to used wider stands thicker strands to compensate, but with the wider,thicker strands you start to loose the flexibility, smoothness and liveliness that you can get from the higher plaited overlays and the multiple bellies of the inner construction that you see with the high quality kangaroo hide whips. The stuff Bernardo is using seems to be a bit of an exception to the rule; it is not your regular run of the mill cowhide. It is similar to the material David Morgan used years back when he didn’t have the access to Roo, but it is not really widely available. I don’t know enough about the specific hide he is using so I don’t want to say too much, but apparently he is able to cut it thinly enough for fine plaiting, with out losing so much of that strength you would with say latigo or redhide or white hide. They are beautifully plaited whips, and they look as good if not better then many similar kangaroo hide bullwhips I have seen, but how those cow hide whips with the 12 and 16 plait overlays will stand up to the stress, wear and tear of years and years of whip cracking remains to be seen. I’d love to really put one though the paces for a long time and see how it performs and holds up.

16 plait whips are really better suited for fine precision performance work and 24 + plait, while very beautiful works of great skill and art are really more for show then for general everyday whip cracking. Of course there are many variables as the material and the overlay count are not the only factors in how good a whip is. How well the whip is made is much more important. The way it handles, its balance and action, things determined by the insides of the whip more then just the outer plaiting, as well as the smoothness and tightness of the plaiting. I have seen really well made 4 to 8 plait cowhide whips that are hands down better then others whip makers 12 or 16 plait kangaroo hide whips. On the other end of the spectrum I have also seen nice looking cowhide whips that began to tear themselves apart after the first few throws and 4 plait kangaroo hide whips that are just fantastic. So a 16-plait whip isn’t going to be necessarily better then a 12 plait or an 8 or a 6 plait whip. Also keep in mind that as it is the last few feet of whip that takes the most wear and tear, so whether it is a finely plaited 16-plait kangaroo hide whip or 8 plait white hide whip, its going to end in an 8 or 6 plait point. Yes, Wider strands are more durable though and is why the David Morgan Indy bullwhip for example was made in wider stands and ended in a 6 plait point so that it would hold up better under rougher use. The whip in that picture is one of David Morgan’s 16-plait classic bullwhip; which he no longer offers. Even though it has 3 plaited underbellies as apposed to the 2 in the regular indy whips, It was made with the same shape and balance but was built to better resist the high stress from constant practice and to achieve for the smoothest action possible action for precision target work, cutting and multiple cracking.

Dan

My "indy look" 8 plait cowhide whip from WSP

My "indy look" 8 plait cowhide whip from WSP

new pics added!!!