Jacket lining in Raiders

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:35 pm

After a little research I have to agree with Michaelson that the lining of the jacket in Raiders at least is in fact a cotton lining. It's simple, a satin lining of any kind will easily reflect light off of it because of it's high schene. Look right at the beginning, Indy is standing in front of the Idol pedistol, Indy reaches into his bag to get the sandbag, you can clearly see the lining of the jacket, NO LIGHT REFLECTION, when he pulls it out of his closet is another, countless scenes. I am pretty sure that I agree with Michaelson on this one. I am going to tape myself doing the moves during the airplane fight to see how much my jacket slides around, to do some real comparison. I will let you know!

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:05 pm

Sheen.
Pedistal.
Spell check.

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:52 pm

Thanks . . . . .

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:10 am

schwammy wrote:Sheen.
Pedistal.
Spell check.

LOL, Schwammy! Good one. One of my pet peeves, too! Did I spell that right?

)

-S

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:59 am

Schwammy,

Sheen.
Pedistal.
Spell check.

Uhhhm. That would be "pedestal" wouldn't it?

Post by **Mike** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:49 am

rick5150 wrote:Uhhhm. That would be "pedestal" wouldn't it?

D'oh!

(which by the way is now in the dictionary.)

Mike

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:54 am

I understood ya, Josh! Also, check out the scene from the Well of Souls where Indy is at the top of the statue, pushing against the ceiling. You can clearly see the cotton lining inside the jacket. (you say potato, I say okra. They're both vegetables!

Yep, Michaelson is rambling again! MORE COFFEE!!!!) Regards. Michaelson

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:02 am

Lol, one rule, keep the coffee away from Michaelson!!!!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:04 am

...at my age, I'm an addict. (grins) High regards. (by the way, are you snow bound? I've heard it's been a wild winter so far!) Michaelson

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:08 am

Well, for the past two weeks we have been getting off an on snow, we have been out of school a few days. I have been braving the cold with my Wested, waiting for my new bullwhip from Mark.

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:07 pm

Mike wrote:
rick5150 wrote:Uhhhm. That would be "pedestal" wouldn't it?
D'oh!

(which by the way is now in the dictionary.)

Mike

LOL! Okay, I am a moron.
Sorry, Josh.

I think we are returning to the 17th century style of spelling, which means no standardized rules (admittedly, there are no rules of spelling in English anyway, only dictionary spellings). People back then spelled however words phonetically or however they chose. Good news for those among us who spelling-challenged, and I certainly have no room to point a finger, as is obvious...

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:27 pm

LOL, don't put yourself down man. It's OK, we all have this problem. COW is not really a board for Indy fans, it is in fact one for SA, Spellers Anonymous. For those who challenged in the ways of correct spelling, we are here to help

. . . . . . . . OK with that pointless moment over, lol, Michaelson I watched that scene and by golly you were very right. While I had Raiders in the DVD player I looked around at the over all color of the jacket as well, comparing it to the new Authentic Lambskin. I have to agree that as Peter says, that's the color, and I agree that it has a cotton lining for sure. The experiment worked, the jacket moves around the same as it does in Raiders with a cotton lining. See what boredom can do to a man. But anyway, I am really set for a new Wested and I can be sure on what I am getting this time around.

Raiders Pattern
Nickel Zipper
Cotton Lining
Authentic Lamb

Wow that sounds nice!

BTW: I ran this through spell check! I think I cought Michaelson rambling bug hmmmmm.

Doctor_Jones · Post by **Doctor_Jones** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:34 pm

Seems that the authentic lamb is getting more popular... I want another Wested!!!!!!!

One day, when I have the money I will go for my third and this time I'll go to England myself. One day...

Regards

DJ

Prof. Fanara · Post by **Prof. Fanara** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:41 pm

Indiana Josh wrote:While I had Raiders in the DVD player...

For the record he said ...er, Laserdisc Player/VCR. Uh, we wouldn't want to get Indiana Josh some un-wanted attention from the "pirate police"...

(All in fun, my friend. All in fun.

)

Nice choice on the Jacket Indiana Josh... can't wait to see it.

Regards,

-Prof. Fanara

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:10 pm

Well, I am a little torn on whether to get another Wested or to get a Flight Suit now. So I dunno, I really want a FS cause of the basic fact that they are much much more accurate. But the latest Westeds looks so nice, they kick the pants off my current Wested. So I will have to see which one I go with. OH YEAH did I say DVD, hahaha I meant laserdisc . . . . . .

MK · Post by MK » Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:33 pm

Indiana Josh wrote:After a little research I have to agree with Michaelson that the lining of the jacket in Raiders at least is in fact a cotton lining. It's simple, a satin lining of any kind will easily reflect light off of it because of it's high schene. Look right at the beginning, Indy is standing in front of the Idol pedistol, Indy reaches into his bag to get the sandbag, you can clearly see the lining of the jacket, NO LIGHT REFLECTION, when he pulls it out of his closet is another, countless scenes. I am pretty sure that I agree with Michaelson on this one. I am going to tape myself doing the moves during the airplane fight to see how much my jacket slides around, to do some real comparison. I will let you know!

I think the lining for the film jacket was crushed velvet.

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:59 pm

MK, you now own both the latest Wested and two Flight Suits, which do you think I should go with next, keeping in mind I have a Wested now, pre-mod, but still a Wested non the less?

MK · Post by MK » Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:52 pm

Get one of each. I like the Wested lamb. Best color leather anywhere to date.

For goat skin I would go with FS. They have the best goat and their quality is top notch. That way you have the best of both worlds.

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:09 pm

I realize the last post in this thread is nearly 3 years old, but I'm adding to it because a new thread I created in January 2006 was removed because it "got ugly" and "had to be locked down." I was told that "the information in the string has been discussed before, and can be found in an archive search," so this is what I did, I searched for a similar thread (this one) and am adding to it.

Let me preface this by saying that I don't care one way or another what linings were said to have been used in Raiders of the Lost Ark. If they were all cotton, all satin, a mix of the two, I don't care. My own Raiders Wested has an all-cotton lining, and for the most part this is what I've always seen on screen, and I'm perfectly happy with it. It's completely accurate in my book.

But I recently saw a fellow fan post the above photo, which is a screengrab of the "Stop, stay out of the light" scene in Raiders. The photo's clarity far surpasses what I was able to duplicate using the 'Pause' button on my DVD player, so I thought it warranted discussion, because in the photo, I personally clearly see a satin lining. It could be argued both ways, yada-yada-yada, lighting, picture quality, etc. There are so many variables that can make an image look one way or another. This photo doesn't prove anything, but it is very interesting. I clearly see satin, others might not.

Now when I use the phrase, "I clearly see," it's not meant to start any arguments. We, as fans, use the phrase all the time. Just look at the earlier posts in this thread, both Bogie1943 and Michaelson use the phrase "you can clearly see" when referring to the fact that they see a cotton lining in many scenes in Raiders (which so do I, in the scenes they refer to I also see cotton).

However, in a way it seems that sometimes when photographs and screen-images are used to prove or disprove an idea or theory, the outcome is widely accepted, people trust what they see in the image, while other times, photographs are dismissed and deemed unreliable due, in part, to the factors I mentioned above, lighting, picture quality, etc. People who always believed one thing will stick with their original stance, regardless of what an image may or may not show, they'll dismiss the reliability of an image that happens to challenge their ideals, but when an image supports their ideals, they'll say it's "proof." Now this is a completely generalized statement. I'm not saying anybody here is/was/or will do this. It's just a generalization.

In the first post in this thread, Bogie1943 writes:

It's simple, a satin lining of any kind will easily reflect light off of it because of it's high schene. Look right at the beginning, Indy is standing in front of the Idol pedistol, Indy reaches into his bag to get the sandbag, you can clearly see the lining of the jacket, NO LIGHT REFLECTION, when he pulls it out of his closet is another, countless scenes.

And I agree with him wholeheartedly. The scenes he references indeed show a cotton lining in my eyes as well. But in the above photo, for the very first time, I do see a light reflection, I do see a high sheen. Whether people agree or not, the photo is very unique and shouldn't be tucked away.

I would hope that this can be discussed in a civil manner, and I would hope that this post is not "locked down," as I feel it's worth discussing.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:16 pm

No posts are ever locked down that are kept civil, and open discussion has ALWAYS been welcomed (regardless of what folks think).

It's when individuals ignore statements made by the actual creators of these items (not just random opinions and observations of casual observers), as well as the offered history of how we got where we are today, but then launch into attacks on individuals who DON'T agree with them is when strings get locked down and/or deleted by the administrators, and individuals removed from the community.

At the time of this particular string, to relate my part, I was stating what Peter had told me in emails we had exchanged back and forth regarding this jacket. In the string that was deleted, he publically stated he had not made any satin lined jackets for the first movie.

This photo promps one of those 'I see brown...I see gray' type debates. Peter stated he didn't MAKE any satin lined jackets for Raiders. This scene is from Raiders, and this particular scene was shot on the London set, so it's a production jacket. I don't see a satin lining on this flat screen monitor. What I see half way up the interior is the narrow leather facing, then the cotton lining. We have been told no satin linings were made.

So, I'm sure this string can go on and on, but exactly where are you hoping it will end up? I have no idea, but carry on....just keep it between the ditches.

Regards! Michaelson

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:37 pm

Michaelson wrote:...I'm sure this string can go on and on, but exactly where are you hoping it will end up? I have no idea, but carry on....just keep it between the ditches.

I appreciate your allowing me to post a topic which adheres to the goal of the forum, "The definitive outlet for discussion of collecting, researching, and replicating/acquiring the Indiana Jones Costume, Props, etc." Thanks.

Indykid89 wrote:Well stated michaelson...a fact is a fact...

Indeed. I have no reason to doubt anybody's claim that all the jackets had cotton linings. But the photo above shows, what appears to be, in my eyes, at least, a satin lining. Pretty neat camera trick, wouldn't you say?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:49 pm

Just to be clear, my friend, it's not a matter of me 'allowing' anyone to do anything. This site is run by a staff of administrators and moderators, and any decision is made by the group...not by an individual. Any moderator on the scene has to occasionally make a judgement call, but then it's left to the group to take a look at what transpired, and then determine what should be done.....if anything.

Regards! Michaelson

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:57 pm

Completely understood, Michaelson. That was perhaps just a poor attempt at humor on my part. I completely understand how quickly a topic can "turn." Hopefully this one won't turn bad.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:41 pm

I've got some satin AND cotton for you:

http://public.fotki.com/KtTemplar/weste ... ocket.html

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:46 pm

Michaelson wrote:No posts are ever locked down that are kept civil, and open discussion has ALWAYS been welcomed (regardless of what folks think).

It's when individuals ignore statements made by the actual creators of these items (not just random opinions and observations of casual observers), as well as the offered history of how we got where we are today, but then launch into attacks on individuals who DON'T agree with them is when strings get locked down and/or deleted by the administrators, and individuals removed from the community.

At the time of this particular string, to relate my part, I was stating what Peter had told me in emails we had exchanged back and forth regarding this jacket. In the string that was deleted, he publically stated he had not made any satin lined jackets for the first movie.

This photo promps one of those 'I see brown...I see gray' type debates. Peter stated he didn't MAKE any satin lined jackets for Raiders. This scene is from Raiders, and this particular scene was shot on the London set, so it's a production jacket. I don't see a satin lining on this flat screen monitor. What I see half way up the interior is the narrow leather facing, then the cotton lining. We have been told no satin linings were made.

So, I'm sure this string can go on and on, but exactly where are you hoping it will end up? I have no idea, but carry on....just keep it between the ditches.

Regards! Michaelson

I am one of those who have spent much time rediscovering things that Michaelson and other members of the board had learned years ago.

MK and I sat with Peter Botwright in the Observation Bar of the Queen Mary in November. There and then, he recounted the entire history of the Raiders jacket from development, tailoring and materials. I also caught up with him two additional times that weekend when he was relating the same details to other curious members here. He stated, without equivocation, that all of the jackets made for Raiders were lined with cotton.

I think we can all discuss how it may look like another material, for what that teaches us, but in fact, we know it was cotton.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:07 pm

Period, dot, the end.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:22 pm

That's my take too.

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:53 pm

Hemingway Jones wrote:MK and I sat with Peter Botwright in the Observation Bar of the Queen Mary in November. There and then, he recounted the entire history of the Raiders jacket from development, tailoring and materials.

Does anybody know if this history has ever been documented in a definitive manner? It would make quite an interesting read, surely a great addition to the main gear pages. Also might stop future members from questioning what everyone has long since accepted as fact.

Kt Templar, that's a terrific photo, showing both cotton and satin on the same coat. In direct sunlight, the cotton almost displays a reflective/sheen type quality.

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Period, dot, the end.

Shouldn't that read "period, dot, leather facings, the end," Bufflehead?

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:23 am

SkyChief wrote: Does anybody know if this history has ever been documented in a definitive manner? It would make quite an interesting read, surely a great addition to the main gear pages. Also might stop future members from questioning what everyone has long since accepted as fact.

I don't think it has every been published or written down, except in the emails exchanged between Mr. Botwright and Mr. Michaelson. I am sure that, if it was required for the Main Site, those who posses first hand knowledge could provide some narrative.

As for questioning what is the accepted facts; there is nothing ever wrong with questioning. Sometimes something overlooked is discovered. The problem recently was that some people just weren't accepting the facts as answers.

We all like to feel like we are advancing the knowledge of this hobby. No one minds revisting something, but it's insulting when someone attacks you for relating something you know to be true, it's absurd. Thankfully, it is a rare occurrence around these parts.

Well, that's all that I need to say on that subject.

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:05 am

Hemingway Jones wrote:I don't think [the history of the jackets] has every been published or written down, except in the emails exchanged between Mr. Botwright and Mr. Michaelson. I am sure that, if it was required for the Main Site, those who posses first hand knowledge could provide some narrative.

Ideally it would be great to have Peter's firsthand account written and displayed for all to see, rather than relying on comments from second parties, which we as fans all are. It would be a tremendous piece of history that every Indy fan would love to read.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:42 am

SkyChief wrote:Ideally it would be great to have Peter's firsthand account written and displayed for all to see, rather than relying on comments from second parties, which we as fans all are. It would be a tremendous piece of history that every Indy fan would love to read.

Here is a thread I found that has Peter saying himself that the original jackets were cotton silesia lining (all cotton).

viewtopic.php?t=2560

Peter made them for the films, so if he says that's what it was, that's what it was. I'm sure he even has the original order forms lying around somewhere. I have also talked to him in person aboard the Queen Mary, and he told me the same thing that he has told Hemmingway, and several other members here. All cotton, lambskin.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:49 am

I believe the man.

I also believe I see a leather facing. But I don't believe I see satin. Leather, yes, satin, no. (Cue Stevie Nicks and Tom Petty.)

But what I believe I see doesn't matter. Peter posted it himself. That's pretty much 'documented'.

J

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:19 am

Strider wrote:Here is a thread I found that has Peter saying himself that the original jackets were cotton silesia lining (all cotton).

viewtopic.php?t=2560

I'm saying it would be nice for "the entire history of the Raiders jacket from development, tailoring and materials" (which Peter recounted to Hemingway Jones) to be documented somewhere.

Strider wrote:Peter made them for the films, so if he says that's what it was, that's what it was. All cotton, lambskin.

Indiana Jerry wrote:I believe the man.

As I've said a few times already, I believe him too. There's no reason not to. I'm simply saying that my eyes see something interesting in the photo, that's all. The "I believe Peter" posts are a bit moot. We all believe him.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:23 am

Okay, then focusing on the topic - re-read the part where I did engage your topic - WHAT I SEE is a leather facing. Note the variation in colors in that area, w/ a slight highlighted area. Not too dissimilar from the area just higher and to the left of that - on the face of the jacket.

Really, I think it's just leather. Hence the slight bit of higher shine than cotton would produce, but still not as much glare as you'd expect from satin.

J

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:25 am

Starting to sound like that "Affirmation" song here guys!

So we know now! Sometime the cotton does look shiney, it's a fine weave and with use and dirt it can get a bit shiney. If you've ever had any "real" trousers (like a uniform) you had to wear all the time you will have found that out.

PETER · Post by **PETER** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:02 pm

It was COTTON lining, C-o-t-t-o-n, Not SATIN and certainly not DACRON which is the lining in the "more screen accurate" FS jacket, joke, although the dacron is a good lining.
Also whilst on this subject the originals did NOT have inside facings, but have been added by me as requested by members to stop the front sagging and the zip catching on the lining, but I can revert back to no facings and save money, but they do help the jacket.
Anyway forget that. More seriously should any of my fellow shipmates from the great QM waterhole gathering wish to partake in a few sherberts here in the UK I will do my best to repay the hospitality.
Do not book anything but the ticket without contacting me as accomodation in the UK can be very hard on the pocket.
Sorry to meander away from the subject in hand but I still dream of those ........... Gentleman Jacks and the good company with it.
Cheers
Peter

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:10 pm

Hey Peter! Don't worry, when (not if) me and my better half make it over your way, we'll definately let you (and about a dozen gearheads) know well beforehand to help us get the best bang for or buck. Or is it pound?

And once we get the Jacket page updated, we'll add the cotton lining fact to the page, I promise!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:10 pm

Now, Peter, are you SURE that's what you used?

(We now see Michaelson diving, once again, underneath his Plymouth, dodging thrown rocks and old Alden boots......

)

High regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:17 pm

He said the lining was burlap, right? Burlap? 8-[ (Joins Michaelson under the Plymouth...)

bink

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:24 pm

....hope you brought a thermos of coffee. We may be under here a while....

Regards! Michaelson

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:28 pm

And it was "grey" lambskin, right? With a hint of brown...

PETER · Post by **PETER** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:29 pm

And once we get the Jacket page updated, we'll add the cotton lining fact to the page, I promise!

Never mind that how about replacing the picture of my Old Factory with a Wested Barn picture, its only been 4 years.
Cheers
Peter

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:30 pm

Move over bink. We have Sergei diving for cover now....

Regards! Michaelson

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:02 pm

Dang, Sergei. I'm the one that keeps making fun of the gray/brown "discussions". You beat me to it.

How many gearheads can fit underneath that Plymouth?

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:08 pm

PLENTY of room, Buff. You can hide in the trunk if you need to.

Regards! Michaelson

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:15 pm

Heck, no! I'm going wherever the coffee suply is. I even brought my own cup. They don't call it a travel mug for nothin'. I just hope nobody shoots any holes in it.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:17 pm

Stay behind bink. I am. 8-[

Regard! Michaelson

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:00 pm

Indiana Jerry wrote:WHAT I SEE is a leather facing.

Indiana Jerry, guess you and I are both seeing something that isn't there, per Peter.

PETER wrote:It was COTTON lining, C-o-t-t-o-n, Not SATIN...

Peter, while we're on the lining subject, what was used in the sequel jackets?

Also, like I said, it would be great if you could type up the definitive "history" of the Indy jacket, for display on the main IndyGear page. Every fan would love to read it.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:10 pm

Well, if you want some coffee from the thermos, Michaelson, we'll have to use Bufflehead to fill up the open gaps.

Peter, I'm glad you're willing to help update the jacket info on the main page when the time comes.

bink

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:03 pm

SkyChief wrote:
Indiana Jerry wrote:WHAT I SEE is a leather facing.
Indiana Jerry, guess you and I are both seeing something that isn't there, per Peter.

And I am happy to be wrong and corrected.

Thanks, Peter!

Michaelson wrote:Stay behind bink. I am. 8-[

How many Germans did Indy shoot with one bullet on the back of the tank in LC?

Jacket lining in Raiders

Jacket lining in Raiders

WHO CARES??!!

Sorry, my friend..

Re: Jacket lining in Raiders