A Theory On Hat Numbers

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:09 am

Hello all... been a long time since I have posted anything, but I am always lurking around here on a daily basis enjoying everyone's comments and input and excitment on receiving their new hats, jackets, whips and so on. My own AB I have received a while ago has really blossomed into the perfect ROTLA lid that I have always wanted, I couldn't be happier.

Anyways I guess I should get to my point. I have been watching alot of Raiders lately and reading all the new hat theories that have been posted in the last little while. I was just looking at some screen shots and flipping through certain scenes in the movie and counting on my own how many hats I think I see. Here's what I came up with... The outdoor Hawaiian shoot in which the hat was drowned during Indy's escape to the plane. All the studio set shots that included the Peruvian temple, The Raven bar, and the Well of Souls. I think one hat was used for all of these shoots, that would be the Raven bar hat. Watch how new it appears in the temple and how Mr. Ford wears it on his head it. It seems to turn more and more in all the studio shots, especially in the Raven bar. I do not know the order of the shooting schedule so those three shoots probably weren't in order. I also think that lid was used in the plane fight and the interior truck fight scenes. And during the tender moment on the Bantu Wind with Marion. Is it just me or is that the beloved and crumpled Cairo hat when Indy hanging on the grill of the truck?!?!? That brings us to the other hat used in the film the infamous Cairo lid. That I need to order from Steve ASAP!!! And last but not least the grey seaplane hat used in that scene and the end of the movie on the stairs. That is if you think there was a grey hat like I do. So I count four hats that Harrison Ford wore. Just my theory I am welcome to all input and other opinions. Thanks for letting me ramble!

Best Regards, Brett

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:13 am

Glad to see you posting again. Don't be a stranger.

Anyway, I like your theories. I concurr that there were several hats used during filming, but don't think there was much attention paid to them.

I think Raiders was like Star Wars; one of those movies where no one really expected it to take off like it did. As such, I really believe that once the powers that be felt like they had found the right hat, they snatched up a few, and that was that. I'm sure they had a Herbie J for Ford to wear when the beat-to-death, dirt encrusted Cairo hat was not appropriate (IE: plane scene, "fools, beauracratic fools!" scene), and that the "Cairo" hat is what was used for everything else.

My take on it is, they shot the Raven bar scenes before the Cairo stuff. I mean, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that Indy's hat would look so good in the Raven bar, and then encrusted with dirt and beat to death upon arrival to Cairo.

Here's how I think it went down.

Raven bar scenes shot before Cairo scenes. Hat looks good.

Truck chase shot. Hat gets very dirty, and beat to death.

SOC scenes shot, hat looks beat to @#$%. Good, mind you. Just beat to @#$%.

What I am trying to say, is I don't think the hat was put under a magnifying glass, as it tends to happen around here from time to time. I think that a very unique set of circumstances shaped that hat into what we see on screen, and that those sets of circumstances will most likely not be able to be re-created.

Just my two cents.

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:29 am

I have always thought that, based on subtle differences of the hats, that there were at least 4 hats used in the title sequence. Also, based on subtle hat differences, I have theorized that the mysterious ' Lock and Company ' hat may have been used here. This would become a monster long post if I expound, so let's all look at our DVDs on freeze frame and ask ourselves if the hat Indy wears just as he enters the temple with Sapito, and the one he is wearing as the boulder begins to roll feel like they belong(one of these things is not like the other, one of these things ain't exactly the same)......

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:52 am

A production schedule is a tangible thing and I am sure someone here knows the order that the scenes were shot. Hmm, now that I think of it, it may be on the Main Site. There is also a certain amount of props that any production team would have ready for a film. So, somewhere is a number of how many hats were on hand, to cover Harrison and the stunt team. I am sure that for continuity's sake, an effort was made to keep Harrison's hats consistent through a scene, though things get mixed up.

I think the post is great and there is a lot of wisdom to what you posted, though I would hesitate before making an exact call myself. It does sound like an interesting project for a rainy Saturday afternoon.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:15 pm

I love this sort of post. I think two brown hats were used. It looks to me the same brown hat was worn, throughout the film, except the opening scene of the film. He has on a new HJ, and wears it until the shots from the studio appear, i.e inside the cave. The hat changes then. The scenes involving the dirty distressed hat is the same hat used throughout the rest of the film. Oh, I just realized something. There may be a third brown hat. The one he is wearing in the PR photo in front of the sub looks really too tapered. But, it may just be the same hat and the top has been pushed inward to make it looked tapered. Hard to call on that one. Fedora

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:11 pm

I really am not sure at all , but just after a view viewings and screen grab comparisons it was what I came up with. I wanted to see what everyone else thought. Just wanted to get the"boulder" rolling on this topic.

I agree that the cast and crew were filming a movie and not as concerned about the wardrobe or hats as we are, but I was trying to guess and see exactly how many noticibly different hats Harrison Ford might have worn for the film. After studying closely I came up with four, but this is just a starting point for me. All opinions and input is greatly appreciated.
Brett

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:24 pm

So in your own opinion Fedora... you believe that the Cairo hat is the same hat he wore in the Raven Bar? I'm sure its possible that the hat could have gotten beat up enough as Strider pointed out and certainly it did, but to my less trained eyes it seems like a such huge difference... just asking since your our hat expert. I don't doubt that it is possible that they are the same hat, guess I am searching for the evidence that it is or somethin'?

Brett

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:49 am

I agree with Fedora. I think the hat we see in the temple, Raven Bar, Well of Souls, Cairo, flying wing, and truck chase are all the same hat. I understand that the Hawaii scenes were done last. By that time the original hat was shot so that used a new one. You can see that the new hat isn't turned. This is possibly also the same hat that got dunked in the river. That leaves us with a grand total of 2 hats.

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:19 am

Hello all... I've done some research and have what I could find on the ROTLA shooting schedule and order... my source is Derek Taylor's "The Making of ROTLA".

First Location: La Rochelle, France.
Submarine scene, Bantu Wind, and Cairo Docks.

Second Location: Elstree Studios, England.
Imam's House
Well Of the Souls
Catacombs
Raven Saloon

Third Location: The Masonic School
Indy's classroom scenes

Fourth Location: Tunisia, Africa
Flying Wing
Desert exteriors
Truck chase
Cairo street fight scenes

Fifth Location: Hawaii
Jungle exteriors

Maybe this info will help shed some light on the hat theories. I am warming up to the one hat used in all scenes except in Hawaii idea here myself. Also include the grey dress hat. That makes the total of 3 used hats for Mr. Ford. Brett

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:50 pm

So in your own opinion Fedora... you believe that the Cairo hat is the same hat he wore in the Raven Bar?

Thanks for the chronological order. I had it saved once, but lost it when I got this new pc. I am with you on the number of hats. Two brown ones. I do think the Cairo hat is the same hat as used in the Raven, Well of Souls, etc. Those hats were just closer to being new. Look at the stunt hat worn by the stunt man on the old stunts video hosted by Ford. It looks like it could be the Cairo hat, as it is distressed and dirty. Fedora

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:08 pm

Boy I wish I had that video... any screenshots? anyone?... Also the Catacombs in the list is the Idol Temple I forgot to point that out. Thanks Steve, I've been studying a little bit and find myself leaning towards the two hat theory now.

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:52 am

Well I've gone and done it, I have convinced myself that the hat used in the flying wing sequence is the same hat used in the SOC scene. Did I find evidence? Yes I have! About halfway through the fight with the big mechanic on the right-side of the ribbon on Indy's hat near the brim the first dust stain appears that looks like and upside down "U" with a tail pointed at the back of the brim. It can be seen really good when Indy says "Marion" after noticing she is trapped in the cockpit of the plane. This is the first of the 3 dust spots that appear on the SOC hat that you can see so well in the publicity shot of Indy and Belloq sharing a drink in the Cairo bar. After comparing numerous screen shots from both scenes that first dust spot is always there in all of them matching exactly. You can also see it really clear in the shot of Harrison Ford and Karen Allen posing together in the market set of Cairo. I now have no doubt the same hat was used in both those scenes. The two brown hats theory is really begining to come together in my mind at least. I know... I know... I've had a lot of free-time this weekend.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:18 am

You can also tracl some of those hats, by the sweat stains on the ribbon. Also, the fedora the stuntman is wearing when he did the under the truck scene has a huge sweat stain on the same side of the hat as Ford's, but it is a bit further forward. When I first saw this, I thought perhaps Ford had worn this hat too. But the stains do not match up. Fedora

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:46 pm

I agree Steve I was keeping my eye on how those developed as well, also some of the unique "cuts" made on the edge of the brim are showing up in various scenes to my eye. That upside down"U" looking dust splatter or stain is the key for me though since it is big and noticable and does not change once it shows up on the hat. So I really think that it could've just been three hats for Harrison Ford. One hero hat, the Hawaii "new" hat, and his grey hat.

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:49 am

I believe Fedora may have pointed out at one time on here that the stains visable on the SOC hat were from ribbon attachments stitches. The stain or dust blob or whatever it may be is the first of these near the front of the hat right up from the brim. I watched ROTLA again last night frame by frame in some scenes and was noticing all kinds of little things on the hat that have me convinced of there only being one hat used, except for the Hawaii opening hat. Continuity is what makes it look like so many different hats to me anyways, but once I look at the order the filming may have taken place the one hat theory really makes more sense to me and I always thought there may have been several hats used in the Idol Temple scene alone, now I don't at all. So now I guess all of our hat venders should only offer two choices in bashes, Hawaii and "Hero" hat (basically the Raven Bar style) Just beat it up as you go! And offer only two colors Indiana brown and Seaplane grey!... Just joking since I'm hopefully now on the list for a rugged looking SOC AB from Steve myself.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:59 am

Indycraze71 wrote:Continuity is what makes it look like so many different hats to me anyways, but once I look at the order the filming may have taken place the one hat theory really makes more sense to me and I always thought there may have been several hats used in the Idol Temple scene alone, now I don't at all.

Actually this is what i thought at the beginning but if i only dared to say something like that months ago ... i can't imagine what could have happened to me

"Choose Erri Wan.. Banned or Killed?"

Does all this mean that if i go to Cairo and i have a few fights my Raven bar rabbit AB would look like cairo bash?

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:26 pm

Yes Erri Wan that's exactly what would happen ... of course you would have to fight under a plane with a big dude and hijack a truck full of nazis before you went to Cairo to slug it out in the market place. However if you done it all correctly you should have no problem turning your Raven Bar hat into the Streets of Cairo look.

And you shouldn't worry about bringing up any ideas around here lots of us survive it... heck I'm still here with barely a scratch on me.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:53 pm

lol. Good good, i can always hijack a truck to get another hatshape

good to know

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:51 pm

I dunno if you wanna mess up all that good looking gear you have though Erri

Hijacking a truck full of bad guys will defintely cause some natural distressing of your gear and hat!

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:20 pm

LOL. So well... Imagine i'm ordering a new Adventurebilt, what should i ask to Steve (or Marc)? I want a general Raiders style? Should i start with the so-called raven bar?

Ow about your idea of 2 hats... if you notice in the Imam house the hat has a flat brim laying on the table. If i put my hat on a table it doesnt look flat brim at all. It must have been brand new in that scene!