When did the web strap become a leather strap?

Vannevar · Post by **Vannevar** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:06 am

Hiya,

When did the web strap on the bag become leather? Is this explained in the books or in young indy chronicles?

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:16 am

Has the strap ever been a web strap in the "indy-history"?

I thought the had taken a MK VII for the movies and replaced the web strap with a leather strap which was a gun strap before.

Or am I wrong?

QuantumGirl · Post by **QuantumGirl** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:41 am

I think Pandora is right.
Especialy since the bag didn't even exist in the 30s. I think they put the leather strap on there so it didn't look like a WWII army bag anymore, but a bag Indys character would wear.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:13 am

Well, the MKVII didn't quite exist in the 30's, but the more than very similar MKVI did. Either way, they were both gas mask bags. I don't think it's a matter of "they didn't have web straps," rather, Indy just replaced it with leather. It's not too difficult to think the original web strap could have worn through with the type of abuse he put his through. I've done similar with web type straps just from daily wear.

bink

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:41 pm

Once again, Paramount propmaster story, so take it for what it's worth .....when searching London for props, they scoured all the military surplus stores in the area, and grabbed MkVII bags and Lee-Enfield rifle slings, and put the two together, as the web strap was just to militaria looking to suit them, and the old leather rifle straps worked perfectly.

That's how the leather strap came to be on the bag, or so I was told in the mid 80's.

Regards! Michaelson

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:58 pm

I must say that is what I've thought all the time too. They just needed a satchel for Indy, what better place too look to get a lot of similar bags for a small price? The Mk VII looked good enough and was assigned for the job, gasmask bag or not, and the propmasters had one less thing to make from scratch to worry about.

Thanks Michaelson, I must have missed that story.

Regards,
Swindiana

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:19 pm

You know, Michaelson, with all of those folks you talked to back then, someone's bound to believe you!

bink

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:20 pm

Well, I thought that years ago, but am getting to the point of 'aw, what the heck!'

It really doesn't matter much anymore.

Regards! Michaelson

Ace · Post by **Ace** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:21 pm

Yeah, but when did they decide to change the strap ? The one Harrison wears in TOD must have been a stunt prop bag or something because it still got the webstrap.

http://www.harrisonfordmedia.com/extras/08-04b.jpg

Ace

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:22 pm

Could have been a person bag belonging to Ford, too. It never appeared on screen in this configuration. Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:24 pm

Michaelson wrote:Well, I thought that years ago, but am getting to the point of 'aw, what the heck!' It really doesn't matter much anymore.
Regards! Michaelson

Oh, come on, old friend, I'm sure it matters to someone....

bink

prettybigguy · Post by **prettybigguy** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:03 pm

In addition to what Michaelson has said the costumers looked @ Ralph McQuarrie's concept paintings where Indy is shown wearinging a WWII GI web belt with a leather shoulder strap beneath his jacket. He is also depicted as having a canvas pouch that would typically be used to hold 2 .45 caliber M1911A1 pistol magazines. It is believed that they ditched the web belt in favor of a leather gunbelt and created a canvas satchel with a leather strap instead of a magazine pouch (he was going to carry a revolver anyway!). Here's the painting:

PBG

schorsch · Post by **schorsch** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:35 pm

Has everyone here tried on the bag with the web strap? It rides _very_ high, even extended to its full length, and would not fit under a jacket. Look at pictures of the bag as worn by soldiers, it's almost up by their necks.

I assume that they went straight for the leather strap, both because it would then hang below the jacket, and because it looks nonchalant and cool hanging down low, and a little uptight and soldierly cinched up high.

Has anyone verified the rifle strap hypothesis? I though that all the rifle straps COW members have looked at have been way too short.

=jp=

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:27 pm

Not the 72 inch original Lee-Enfield strap I own. The straps came in various lengths. There was no set length by Enfield, and the straps were made to fit the man the rifle was issued to.

How do you verify now adays. I verified several things with folks directly involved in the productions back in the 80's when our hobby first began, and yet today those points are either not believed, or are questioned, as has occured in this case. This was not a hypothesis....it was what the propmaster told me. So, with whom do YOU want verifcation from? I have no clue what else to offer anyone anymore.

Regards! Michaelson

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:22 pm

Some of us actually believe what they said, Michaelson. Maybe it's just us old school guys, I don't know.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:27 pm

That's, Buff. Don't mind me. I guess as time has progressed and the stories are told and retold, and each time retold the details change, it's easy to question what you read or hear now, so I guess I can't blame anyone for asking. I mean, as an example, how many folks have taken credit for the creation of the fedora? I can think of two completely different 'official' versions told by folks who were DEEPLY involved in the item, and yet neither story is the same, so go figure.

High regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:36 pm

Hey, you know I believe you, Michaelson! (You can drop the check in thge mail.

)

Seriously, I find it interesting how some of the facts change through time, regardless of how close to the actual movie production the information was gleaned. Sure, there are exceptions where extra "dirt digging" years later brings new light to things, but I would take a great deal more of credibility from sources 20 years ago versus asking the same people the same questions 20 years later. Oh, well.

bink

Post by **Ken** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:55 pm

I believe...!!!

Actually thats terrible Michaelson. I dont see how you can get any closer without holding the actual item in your hand, especially since it was during the 80s you had the conversation!!!

This is a really intersting bit of info and should definitly be recorded for prosperity - any other similar conversations you had back in the 80s about gear?

Ken

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:04 pm

Probably, but they only pop up when that part of of my brain is activated....which ain't very often. 8-[
I can honestly understand fully Lee Keppler's frustration over the years, as he DID hold most of the items we've discussed ad nasium here and elsewhere, and today a lot of THAT information is being questioned, as time is marching on, and the stories are being retold with new 'twists' to them.

Regards! Michaelson

schorsch · Post by **schorsch** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:15 pm

I wouldn't doubt anything that came straight from the horse's (or Michealson's) mouth. I only asked because in this post viewtopic.php?t=9981&highlight=rifle+strap
the strap is definitely too short. I wasn't aware that there were longer rifle straps, and now I'm intrigued...

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:21 pm

Michaelson wrote: I can honestly understand fully Lee Keppler's frustration over the years, as he DID hold most of the items we've discussed ad nasium here and elsewhere, and today a lot of THAT information is being questioned, as time is marching on, and the stories are being retold with new 'twists' to them.
Regards! Michaelson

Kinda sounds like history in general, doesn't it? Hey, Michaeslon, tell me about the time you met Napoleon again!

Ken, I told you on your forum to record all the details (with pics, even) of the gear you used in your fan film. Nevermind years from now folks will probably tell you the pics aren't legit.

bink

Dre · Post by **Dre** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:02 pm

ive been looking in a few army surplus stores and i cant seem to find any strap that'd be remotely similar (or any strap at all!) to the indy strap, but i really dont want to pay as much money as what the various places are asking on the net for an indy replica strap.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:06 pm

Dre, did you try TAPCO online, or will they not ship to Australia?

bink

zeus36 · Post by **zeus36** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:44 am

prettybigguy wrote:In addition to what Michaelson has said the costumers looked @ Ralph McQuarrie's concept paintings where Indy is shown wearinging a WWII GI web belt with a leather shoulder strap beneath his jacket. He is also depicted as having a canvas pouch that would typically be used to hold 2 .45 caliber M1911A1 pistol magazines. It is believed that they ditched the web belt in favor of a leather gunbelt and created a canvas satchel with a leather strap instead of a magazine pouch (he was going to carry a revolver anyway!). Here's the painting:

PBG

I agree with your post and you beat me to it!!

Dre · Post by **Dre** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:30 am

bink: TAPCO said they wont ship to australia

it's a shame.

i think thye suggested luggage straps as something to look into...but i havent found anything REMOTELY good in that category

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:31 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:Kinda sounds like history in general, doesn't it? Hey, Michaeslon, tell me about the time you met Napoleon again!

bink

He was a short guy...always in a bad mood...fancy dresser...drank a lot of French Vanilla coffee, which you know isn't one of my favorites. We didn't get along very well, as I recall...

Regards! Michaelson

prettybigguy · Post by **prettybigguy** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:10 pm

Michaelson wrote: I can honestly understand fully Lee Keppler's frustration over the years, as he DID hold most of the items we've discussed ad nasium here and elsewhere, and today a lot of THAT information is being questioned, as time is marching on, and the stories are being retold with new 'twists' to them.
Regards! Michaelson

Sigh, if only a webpage existed somewhere where all of these historical facts could be posted for all to see. Wouldn't that be great?! Then the same quesions wouldn't have to be answered ever couple of months! (How's the site re-build going guys?)

Skippy · Post by **Skippy** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:11 pm

Michaelson - Is there any chance you could post a picture of the rifle strap you possess please?

Does it have an appropriate buckle to the original prop strap?

& does the strap have any military identification markings?

I ask as I'm off to somewhere at the weekend I might be able to pick one of these up if I have the correct information

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:12 pm

I think Indiana Jerry posted one not to long ago. Unfortunately, I do not have access to a digital camera at this time, but of the 3 straps I DO have, each buckle is a little different than the next.

You can find his topic from last October 23 under the title 'Possibly the bag strap-If not, close enough for me!'.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:09 am

I have a Tapco strap which totally looks the part! You can see a general pic here:
http://www.tapco.com/product_informatio ... 51&last=47

I understand each strap varies a little, but mine has faint grooves on the side and the perfect buckle. The only real difference is that it latches to your bag a bit differently than the "official" straps, but I think the rifle straps "feel" more authentic.

bink

Dre · Post by **Dre** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:54 am

anyone feel like sending a tapco strap to australia?

Baggers · Post by **Baggers** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:31 am

Michaelson wrote:Not the 72 inch original Lee-Enfield strap I own. The straps came in various lengths. There was no set length by Enfield, and the straps were made to fit the man the rifle was issued to.

Michaelson,
Just curious, but are there any markings on that 72 inch rifle sling of yours? The reason I ask is that I have a 1940 dated leather sling from S. E. Norris & Co. Ltd. that is no where near that length and is unmodified. Also, it has been my understanding that slings were manufactured in only one length (approx. 44-45 inches). Once they were mounted on the rifle, they were adjusted to fit by either the runners on the leather version or the brass C hooks at the ends of the canvas webbing versions. I'm sure there's a six foot sling out there somewhere, but I'd be surprised to find out that it had been intended for use on an Enfield of any type.

I apologize if this places me in the ranks of those questioning well established lore, but I've been collecting these fine rifles for several years. I currently own 5 with dates of manufacture ranging from 1917 to 1966, and have yet to see or read about a sling that long.

Cheers!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:22 am

Markings? None that I've observed, but then I can't honestly say I've gone over it with a microscope. I'll take a look.

Oh, and bink, it DOES go on the bag exactly like the standard acquired strap. You have to remove the snap hook on the end, pull the strap back through the buckle, then assemble the setup as usual. EXACTLY as seen on screen. Just eliminate the end snap hook.

Regards! Michaelson

Baggers · Post by **Baggers** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:45 am

Michaelson wrote:Markings? None that I've observed, but then I can't honestly say I've gone over it with a microscope. I'll take a look.

Oh, and bink, it DOES go on the bag exactly like the standard acquired strap. You have to remove the snap hook on the end, pull the strap back through the buckle, then assemble the setup as usual. EXACTLY as seen on screen. Just eliminate the end snap hook.

Regards! Michaelson

Snap hook? Buckle? Doesn't sound like any british sling with which I'm familar, excluding perhaps the web slings for the Sten and Sterling SMGs. And the Sten sling had a hook on one end that looped through a hole in the barrel sleeve on certain marks. Now I'm really confused. The only metal hardware on the leather rifle slings were the rivets that fastened a loop to one end of it. The other end had only some holes through which a piece of leather thong was threaded when it was attached to the butt swivel.

Hmmm...

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:46 am

Yeah, I was referring to the use of the snap hook. Never thought of removing it, though!

bink

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:27 pm

These are pre-WW2 straps, and all the Lee-Enfields I've handled of that era DID have this type strap attached, so I'm not sure which model you've seen or handled, Baggers, but I was recently told that the mid WW2 and post WW2 models completely changed the strap to canvas. Maybe that's what you're familiar with.

In a pinch, I could also make one of mine work on my Mosin-Nagant model 1944, which I had never thought of ever attempting until this very moment!

Thanks, Baggers! You've given me an inspiring idea!!

Regards! Michaelson

Baggers · Post by **Baggers** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:34 pm

Michaelson wrote:These are pre-WW2 straps, and all the Lee-Enfields I've handled of that era DID have this type strap attached, so I'm not sure which model you've seen or handled, Baggers, but I was recently told that the mid WW2 and post WW2 models completely changed the strap to canvas. Maybe that's what you're familiar with.

Perhaps the rifles you have handled had the wrong type attached. Canvas web slings have been manufactured for Lee Enfield rifles since the adoption of the Pattern 1908 Web Equipment Set prior to WW1. I have seen examples marked with dates as early as 1916, when that information was typically stamped into the brass tags attached to each end of the sling.

Leather slings were made for Enfields, but only after leather equipment sets were temporarily re-introduced in 1914 when demand for the web variety was greater than what the primary manufacturer, the Mills Equipment Company, could supply. However these slings followed the pattern of 19th century leather models by being a simple strap with a fixed loop at one end, a freely moving "runner," and the holes and thong at the other end that I described in my earlier post. They didn't have any metal snap hooks or buckles. These same slings were then brought back into production for use by Home Guard units early in WW2, hence my 1940 dated example.

Of course, there's always the possibilty that leather slings were used in small numbers from time to time beyond the instances I outlined. But for all intents and purposes, the typical sling issued for use with the British service rifle -- including the Lee Enfield series -- from 1908 until the introduction of nylon synthetics in the 1970s or 80s, was canvas web.

Now as for what you actually have, perhaps it will work on your Mosin-Nagant, as almost every other army on the face of the earth during that same period did use leather slings, including the U.S.. Maybe it's a sling for a Mauser?

Cheers!