They claim "exact hat", but we know better...

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:39 am

Andiana148 wrote:Bufflehead -

I just thought that Strider and Mr. Renderking were er...kinda getting in a little fight

I was just trying to express my opinion. See how I gave up at the end? I wasn't about to get into a flame war over this. In any event, it's all good now.

Rob wrote:I'll say it again... it's a $50 hat, people... let's not be getting too uptight about it...

!!!!!

Regards,
Strider

MoreLikeMarcus · Post by **MoreLikeMarcus** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:59 am

Renderking Fisk wrote:
Nope, they’re TOTALLY in the wrong for use of the word “EXACTLY”…

Exactly!

I am just trying to figure out, if it is ignorance, incompetence or malevolence on Herrington's part.
Well, I it is probably not polite, but since I believe in "in dubio pro reo", I'd go with ignorance - so, they need education

Cheers
MLM

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:11 am

I don't even think it's the guys own words. It's written like advertising copy - and I'm sure I've seen it used elsewhere, too.

The thing is, the hat is the sanctioned Lucasfilm hat, I believe. As such, it's got that kiss of approval that is undeniable, no matter how good or bad the hat is. And we can sit here till doomsday with our screencaps, and our Akubras, and our HJs, and our Adventurebilts, and our hatred of people who dare sell inferior Indy gear, and all that stuff... but you know what?

*The kind of person who buys this hat only wants to spend 50 bucks.

*The kind of person who buys this hat is probably buying it to wear to a costume party, or just something for a bit of fun.

*The kind of person who buys this hat isn't a COW kind of person.

And, you know, if they become one, the story of how bad their first Indy hat was will make a funny thread one day. Indeed, I think we already have people like that here... and I don't see them wanting to eviscerate the person who sold them their first Indy hat. They just shrug, laugh and thank God they found COW.

So... in light of all that... what is the big deal?

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:50 am

Rob wrote: So... in light of all that... what is the big deal?

Rob, I respect you and your point of view. I think you're an honnest and diecent guy. But I don’t think you’re seeing the big picture from my point of view. If they wanted to say, “This is the official Licensed Product from LucasFilm” this wouldn’t be an issue… it’s the use of the word “Exactly” that’s misleading.

Short while ago, Peter at Wested release a shirt that was made from the same patterns that Noel Howard used… this same group of people debated if the shirt was “screen accurate” enough and argued if the ends of shirt epaulets should be rounded, squared or pointed.

It’s a $90 dollar shirt; it should be “perfect”, Right? Peter is selling a shirt that’s supposed to be “exactly” like the ones Harrison Ford wore, and many folks debated that’s what they should be getting…

This is a clear case of false advertising using the word “EXACTLY” for a product that isn’t what they say it is. It’s misleading and preying on an uninformed customer... we rip into people all the time for doing the same thing on E-Bay, such as someone who was selling an Hovito idol that was “used in the movie” when at first glance you can tell it was something someone made his or her basement, “Far, Far Away” from Industrial Light And Magic.

Why is that E-Bay selling tactic inexcusable while what this Harrington Company is doing is fine? I don’t believe this isn’t an honnest mistake, because if I could tell the difference 20 years ago with out the use of the Internet… ANYBODY else could.

It’s a $50 dollar hat so who cares? To a lot of people $50 is a lot of money which could be saved towards a better product. A $50 hat or a $90 shirt… where do we draw the line?

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:28 am

I have emailed Dorfman Pacific before on this. I explained the differences and what they needed to do, from the bow to the crown. I never got a reply. It's too bad. With a slightly higher and squarer block and a dimensional brim, the DP fur felt would look pretty good.

Bad Penny · Post by **Bad Penny** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:59 am

Ladies and Gents,

In comparison:

http://p212.ezboard.com/fhalloweenmaskassociationfrm4

The "official Michael Myers mask" has been sold for years, but its definitely not screen accurate. Like-minded fans of screen accuracy fans from every genre will always know the difference. But they're in the minority. I know, especially from all the arguments I've seen and participated in on the importance of accuracy in licensed references for Star Wars to accurately report what is seen onscreen. Take a look at another excellent page:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ssd5mile.html

Another thing I might mention for future food for thought. Because of websites like the above, Dr. Saxton is now working on newer reference books such as the Dorling Kindersley "Incredible Cross Sections" books which are in the process of correcting over a decade of inaccurate info from the Star Wars universe.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:26 am

I understand the bad feelings about this particular wording on Ren's part, and salute everyone for handling this debate so well. I tip my fedora to you all. I just want to point out one thing...U.S. Cavalry used 'exactly' the same wording when they were selling the infamous Stetson 'Temple of Doom' hat back in the 80's. (You remember THAT one, Don't you Ren?

), and it was advertised as being 'exactly' the same hat Ford wore in the movie. So, this isn't the first time this ploy has been used, and until Lucas or Paramount drops a hammer, won't be the last.

I'm now pulling back out of the discussion. There's no need for any discussion of 'lockdown', as this is precisely the direction discussions should go, in my opinion. We agree, disagree, or agree to disagree. It's all good!

Regards. Michaelson

JAN · Post by **JAN** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:39 pm

Ren wrote:

They doctored that photograph... again misrepresenting that product.

Just so I can learn something new today... How did they "doctor" the picture (so that the hat changes shape/apperance)?

From Herringtons webpage:

From The Indy Experience:

To me it looks like the same hat...

Best regards

JAN

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:42 pm

Looks like those photos were shot at the same time and place to me. I think what would clear the whole thing up would be a rephrasing of their statement with something like 'this is a hat STYLED exactly like the one Ford wore', or some such thing. We all know the hat they're offering isn't the same, exact, real hat...it's a reproduction of the STYLE worn by Ford. It's all in the wording. Regards. Michaelson

Redbeard · Post by **Redbeard** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:57 pm

I for my part think that somebody should point out the mistake they made to them in a nice manner. The propably don't even know that they do something wrong as this is actualy THE licesensed product.

Regards,
Red

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:04 pm

I'll keep saying it until it sinks in... the word "Exactly" is misleading and might be an outright lie.

It's wrong, they should change it.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:16 pm

Until it 'sinks in?' Sorry, Ren, old buddy. You're beating a dead horse, and at least for this writer, you're dumping water on my teflon coated fedora. I've seen this claim made by so many vendors over the past 20+ years for just about every item we own that this company will just have to take a number and have a seat before I'd take the time to drag them to the gallows over their marketing snafu. Any true gearhead who does their research will KNOW this is not 'exactly' what Ford wore...and most folks who buy THESE things don't even care one way or the other.

Adding the word 'styled like' would fix the wording and intention. I've read this description elsewhere in the past, and it's the wording from Lucasfilm's licensing group, so they must have cut and pasted that marketing information. Anyone with eyes can see that the photo supplied of Ford wearing his HJ and the photo of the wool fedora for sale have no comparisons what so ever....with the exception that they're both brown.

I'd not get to bent out of shape, Ren. There are way to many REAL problems out there to tackle. I don't find this one to be one of them myself, but then it's each man's choice as to what battle they feel they must fight. If you feel that strongly about this, go for it!

High regards! Michaelson

RelicHunter · Post by **RelicHunter** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:26 pm

The Dorfman Pacific hat is a great hat for the money, and for the fan who doesn't care about the differences it's the perfect hat.

But Herrington stating that the hat is EXACTLY the same is false advertising. If they're doing this knowing that the hat is not exactly the same, they should stop. If they don't know the hat isn't the same, we should let them know in a nice way that they should change it.

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:28 pm

RH just stated it the most concisely.

(freakin' typos!)

RelicHunter · Post by **RelicHunter** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:40 pm

Snakewhip_Sable wrote:RR just stated it the most concisely.

Do you mean RH?

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:58 pm

Michaelson wrote:Until it 'sinks in?' Sorry, Ren, old buddy. You're beating a dead horse, and at least for this writer, you're dumping water on my teflon coated fedora.

Now you're speaking my language.

Michaelson wrote:I've seen this claim made by so many vendors over the past 20+ years for just about every item we own that this company will just have to take a number and have a seat before I'd take the time to drag them to the gallows over their marketing snafu......most folks who buy THESE things don't even care one way or the other.

This is what I'm saying.

Michaelson wrote:I've read this description elsewhere in the past, and it's the wording from Lucasfilm's licensing group, so they must have cut and pasted that marketing information.

Bada bing. You're just on a roll today, aren't you?

Michaelson wrote:I'd not get to bent out of shape, Ren. There are way to many REAL problems out there to tackle.

I'll vote for you if you run for president.

Regards,
Strider

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:04 pm

I'll take some of that praise, considering I was talking about where the ad copy was from, etc, as well...

... it's not these people's fault that Lucasfilm says it's "the" hat. I mean, what else are Lucas people going to say?

"Er, this is the official hat, and, well, it's sorta the same..." No way! They're going to say it's the official hat and it's exact. Doesn't matter what WE think, or what WE know, this is how the Lucas people are pushing it.

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:15 pm

Lucas people... why'd it have to be Lucas people?

You know... if Spielberg were doing it... lol

In Christ,
Shane

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:57 pm

IndyMcFly wrote:Lucas people... why'd it have to be Lucas people?

LOL... I find myself asking that a lot - about a lot of things!

Andiana · Post by **Andiana** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:06 am

Lucas people... why'd it have to be Lucas people?

And as for Disney -

"Eisner...why'd it have to be Eisner..."

Well, at least he's moving out this year...then maybe Disney Parks will start selling more accurate Indy hats.....nah...

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:54 am

This just in:

Dear Mr. Eillison,

Thank you for your e-mail. From what we have been told, this is the same exact style hat that Harrison Ford wore in all of the Indiana Jones movies. It could be that the actual hat made for the movies was created by another company and ours is just an exact replica. I don't know for sure, however. At this time, I have asked our vendor to give me a little more information about the hat. As soon as I hear back from them, I'd be happy to better address your concerns. Please look for my follow-up e-mail shortly.

Kindest Regards,

Courtney
Herrington Catalog
Customer Service

At least they were nice enough to reply.

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:49 am

Once I sent the letter off, I washed my hands of the whole matter for now. I did my part… Now it’s in the relm of the philisophical and theoretical.

I’m not upset, I’m not grinding my ax, I’m not losing any sleep over this or getting high blood pressure from this… now it’s just a good topic for a debate or fuel for conversation over a cup of coffee.

If I’ve gone overboard in fighting my case and I’ve made some people mad, I’m sorry.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:05 am

No problem. I see in their own reply the word 'style', so apparently that's what they meant, but didn't say in their advertisement. It happens. Regards. Michaelson

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:20 am

Here's a Dorfman that I reblocked and put the proper center dent in. Just to show how little it would take to make the official hat more accurate, if not "exact".

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:26 am

Not bad at all!!!

High regards. Michaelson

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:06 pm

How'd you do that!? I've been trying to do the same thing to my old DP for a long time.

Regards,
Strider

VP · Post by VP » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:59 am

Maybe it's the reblocking. Is it wool or fur?

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:26 am

This is a fur felt, and yeah, it's a pretty good block I've got. Though I hate sewing, I removed everything, soaked the felt, blocked it and resewed the sweatband back. I still haven't sewn the ribbon. What you see in the pic is the "Indy" hat pin holding the ribbon together.

Post by **Dalexs** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:01 pm

Andiana148 wrote:Yo Mods, maybe we should er..close up this thread. I'm afriad someone's gonna pull out a webley soon...

"LET THE BOY SPEAK!" -

Coming from someone who has owned the hat, I think it is a very good hat, but for even a beginning fan, it's obvious that it's not the 'actual' hat, because if it was a 'begining' fan, they'd probably search for 'Indiana Jones' through google or something and come up to this site! (Hey, I did...)

Let's all get along....

Nah, there's no reason to close this one down... See, everything turned out just fine. We're all adults here and a little brawling is good for the soul!

Carry on....

Dalexs

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:07 pm

Brawling is ok now?! WELL then...hey bink....hand me that beer bottle next to you...I want to throw it Indiana Jess...just don't tell him it's coming his way. 8-[

Regards. Michaelson

Gater · Post by **Gater** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:22 pm

Whisky...?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:24 pm

Make it Gentleman Jack then, but I won't throw THAT one, thank you.

Regards. Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:29 pm

Michaelson wrote:Brawling is ok now?! WELL then...hey bink....hand me that beer bottle next to you...I want to throw it Indiana Jess...just don't tell him it's coming his way. 8-[ Regards. Michaelson

(guzzling the bootle of beer and then passing it along.)

Here you go, Michhhaelson... but next time could you make sure it's a Guiness I'm drinking instead of a Colt .45 Malt Liqour?

b

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:31 pm

Hey, I didn't mean THAT bottle!

The OTHER bottle of beer.

Man, you can't take that guy anywhere anymore.l

Regards. Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:34 pm

Oopsh... Shorry....

Hey, do you know what Humphrey Bogart goes to the post office to buy?

Shtamps.

And somewhat back on topic, do you think there are people out there who look at "authentic Bogie hats" the same way we look at Indy hats?

bink

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:38 pm

Yep. There sure are! I've read several 'debates' in the past year or so over his hat. Regards. Michaelson

(I'm glad I didn't ask bink to hand me that bottle of furniture polish now!

)

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:56 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:And somewhat back on topic, do you think there are people out there who look at "authentic Bogie hats" the same way we look at Indy hats?

That's how I found this place, back in 1998 or '99 I was looking for the perfect fedora again while getting back into Raymond Chandler books.