Ribbon

bandit6 · Post by **bandit6** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:07 am

OK, I looked all over and can't find it. What color is the ribbion on Indy's hat in Raiders? To me it looks black.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:12 am

It is actually dark brown. The contrast between the felt and the ribbon makes it look black in some scenes, though.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 6:46 am

It's black in Raiders,,,,brown in the other two flicks.......

Doesn't look black to me...

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:45 am

I agree with Lang et al., the ribbon was brown, which, by contrast, looks black. From what I read, no hatter would put a black ribbon with a brown hat. It just wasn't done, like wearing black and blue or red and green. It's just not cricket.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:16 pm

Besides, no old-school milliner would ever put a black ribbon on a brown hat. I doubt that was done in the 30's either...

Flattery · Post by **Flattery** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:10 pm

"That man's wearing a black ribbon with a brown belt! How dare he!

"

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:28 pm

You know, I hate to stir things up a bit but...

My oldest brown fedoras do have a brown ribbon of one shade or another. However, I have a dark brown hat in particular from the 50s or so which, in fact, does have a black ribbon. It goes nicely with a brown and black wool herringbone suit jacket I have, to boot. So though most hatters (or hats, anyway) probably kept with a brown on brown motif with their hats, I dare say that some brown hats were fashioned with a black ribbon. Now whether Indy's hat ever had a black ribbon is still up to debate, but there are some "old school" hats which break from this "norm."

I think it would also be safe to say that some brown ribbons are so dark, that if you were to replace it with a black ribbon, the majority of folks wouldn't even know it. Keep in mind that some tints of black back then (and now) are darker or lighter than others, so this may also play a role as to look "good or bad" on a brown felt.

bink

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:41 pm

I have bought modern hats with a charcoal black ribbon. It looked good. I think the Indy fedoras came with a dark brown, that looked black in certain lighting. Fedora

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:56 pm

Flattery wrote:"That man's wearing a black ribbon with a brown belt! How dare he! "

Something like that, yes...

I bought an Indy-esque hat in the early 90's and, mislead as I were, asked for a black replacement ribbon. The lady in the shop (who was in her 60's and turned out to be a former milliner) frowned and let me understand that a black ribbon would be highly irregular. I was quite intimidated and decided to keep the brown one... 8-[

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:01 pm

"Who refuses to wear de r-r-ribbon?"

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 6:14 pm

I side with brown. Dark chocolate brown.

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 6:37 pm

It's dark brown. "Trust Me"!

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:17 pm

But it's not "Akubra ribbon brown," though, right? This means even if it's not black, I still have to replace my ribbon!

In Christ,
Shane

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:22 pm

The Akubra regular Fed could do with a slightly darker ribbon. Not sure about the Deluxe - haven't seen one 'live' - but top men say that they have a nicer contrast.

Neolithic · Post by **Neolithic** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:34 pm

The brown side of the force I'd hazard a guess.
I've not seen an HJ with a black ribbon with the colour of Indy's hat.

Similar to accurate Wested colour this discussion is...

Post by **Dalexs** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:24 pm

Scandinavia Jones wrote:The Akubra regular Fed could do with a slightly darker ribbon. Not sure about the Deluxe - haven't seen one 'live' - but top men say that they have a nicer contrast.

I have some of the new Akubra dark brown on my old Regular Federation, trust me... they got it right this time.

And if you search around, this is a debate that has gone on and been researched for years...

Survey Says: Dark Dark Dark Brown, almost black!

Kentucky Mason · Post by **Kentucky Mason** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:45 am

Hemingway Jones wrote:It just wasn't done, like wearing black and blue or red and green.

Wait Red and Green don't go together! now what am I going to do this Christmas!!!

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:14 am

INDIANAMIKEY wrote:look at my avatar,,,,,,,,,black

Huh?

Regards,
Swindiana

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:27 am

Hemingway Jones wrote:It just wasn't done, like wearing black and blue or red and green. It's just not cricket.

Umm, I hate to tell you this, my friend, but as a professional artist who had the color wheel shoved down his throat in art school (it wasn't very comfortable and made it hard to breathe) red and green are complimentary colors. There's a reason they're called complimentary. Besides, if a red rose can sport a green stem, then what's the problem? Take it up with God, I guess. As for black and blue -- two words: "Mister" and "Spock." You'll have to take that one up with Star Fleet.

bink

Ghos7a55assin · Post by **Ghos7a55assin** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:28 am

That scene is really dark though. If you just wanna see if its black or brown, I would see fofr a lighter image. If it was black, then the ribbon would stay black, but for dark brown it would become brown. Maybe in one of the cairo scenes?

VP · Post by VP » Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:59 am

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:15 am

Hemingway Jones wrote:
It just wasn't done, like wearing black and blue or red and green. It's just not cricket.
Umm, I hate to tell you this, my friend, but as a professional artist who had the color wheel shoved down his throat in art school (it wasn't very comfortable and made it hard to breathe) red and green are complimentary colors. There's a reason they're called complimentary. Besides, if a red rose can sport a green stem, then what's the problem? Take it up with God, I guess. As for black and blue -- two words: "Mister" and "Spock." You'll have to take that one up with Star Fleet.
bink

"Everyon'e lost, but me!"
They're all ganging up on me...
bink, dear, dear friend, I never said red and green didn't "compliment" each other. What I said was they shouldn't be worn together, or everyone will say you look like a Christmas tree. But, hey, if you want to wear red and green go ahead. I would suggest a red and green striped sweater, with your fedora, and, Oh, I dunno, maybe a metal glove with knives for fingers!

As for black and blue: you're heading down that road, mister!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:43 am

Indiana Jones and the Christmas Tree of Doom.

I know what you mean about the "Christmas effect" though you can get away with the red/green combo (not the TV show!) of you choose the tints wisely and know how to accent it properly without going overboard... Anyhow, I know you know I'm just picking on you.

Phasers on stun,

bink

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:50 am

VP · Post by VP » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:16 pm

Thank yew, thank yew. All pics taken from my fedora page, http://koti.mbnet.fi/vpr/indy/varusteet/hattu.html

Kentucky Mason · Post by **Kentucky Mason** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:47 pm

AHA!!!

The LOST Christie's Fedora, look at that color and brim!

LOL

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:29 pm

I bilieve the ribbon was alot lighter in color than anyone thinks it is and the grain from the ribbon is what makes it appear dark in certain conditions. Take a look at this hat from the exhibit here in Chicago.
http://www.theindyexperience.com/image/ ... hibit4.jpg
Not at all a black ribbon and certainly not a chocolate/dark brown one either. I think the way the light reflects off the ribbon is what makes it appear darker than it really is, just as the pics demonstrate at the outter edges of the ribbon.

Also, as a another professional artist, I for one cannot think of a reason why they'd choose such earthy colors for the costume of Indiana Jones and then ruin it all by sticking on a solid black ribbon. It would stick out like a sore thumb. Just my opinion though, of course.

Sorry Mikey. It was a brown ribbon.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:44 pm

That hat is a LC hat, and it had a lighter brown ribbon. All of the hats in tha Lucas walkthough, had the ligher brown ribbon, although, 1 3/4 inches. I think the ribbon on Ford's Raiders fedora was changed out, as has been stated, to a 39 mm to make the hat appear even taller than it was. Also, the collage of pics above, do not look like the same block shape to me. In LC when Indy is chasing the tank, his hat is popped out to the open crown, and it is a flat top block. In Raiders, in the Well of Souls, when Marion is climbing all over him, his hat pops up to the open crown state. It is not the same block shape as the one noted above. It is rounder on top. Check it out. Fedora

Kentucky Blues · Post by **Kentucky Blues** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:50 pm

It must be remembered, that with less light, comes more shadow (shade) and shading is basicallly the addition of black, and so if a ribbon is a dark enough brown to look black compared to a reasonabley dark brown hat, then with the addition of black, it would look black. Especially when compared to the hat that makes it look black. So as Agent 5 said, Sorry Mikey, and while this little "lesson" of mine doesn't prove that its definately brown, it does prove that your avatar can't prove that its black. But yeah, I'm pretty sure its really dark brown, just like the Federation Deluxe Ribbon (which I thought was black as long as I'd owned it until I compared it to black ribbon).

High Regards,
Daryl.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:11 pm

That hat is a LC hat

Although that appears to be the case, not one of us can be certain. I DO have the LFL serial/cataloging numbers from the inside of the hat, so if anyone knows anyone who works at the archives, we can find out for sure.

I know, I'm dreaming.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:33 pm

You're all wrong. It was actually a pink ribbon with a pretty bow. It's just that the cameras and lighting make it appear to be brown or black, when in all truthfulness, it's pink. If you look closely, you can also see that Indy didn't carry a gas mask bag, but instead a Vera Bradley quilted purse. Honest.

bink

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:38 pm

That's so true. And in LC, Connery doesn't wear a tweed suit, as it may seem - Jones Sr. donned a navy/carnation Laura Ashley dress with a distinctive floral pattern.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:45 pm

I DO have the LFL serial/cataloging numbers from the inside of the hat,

Do you recall what sort of crest was on the liner? Fedora

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:50 pm

Are you two watching the John Waters Indy trilogy or something???

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:46 am

Do you recall what sort of crest was on the liner?

Well, apparently not.

The reason that I asked is because of the crests used in LC. Now, we know from viewing the film, there were two different crests used in this film. The burgundy oval, and the one that was just in gold, and not the oval crest. In the Lucas Warehouse film, you don't see the ovals, but you see two other HJ crests in the hats. The old, blue shield crest, and the pentagon burgundy crest that was recently showned in a post here from an old HJ. The crest in that hat, could date the hat to the film. Maybe. Fedora

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:01 pm

Do you recall what sort of crest was on the liner? Fedora

They have a piece of foam covering the entire inside of the hat, except for the sweatband which has some sort of serial number in it and 'MADE IN ENGLAND, 100% Fine Fur Felt, Hand Made' printed on it. I got a great, clear shot of the print and clear shot of the serial number which shows most of the numbers. The sweatband looks almost brand new.

All I know for sure it that the guy who went to the archives to get the items said they still have rows and rows of costumes from the film and he simply chose it because it looked nice, not so beat up. He said it looked as though nothing was in any kind of order by film, just that most of the costumes from the Indy films were basically in one spot.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:01 pm

Scandinavia Jones wrote:That's so true. And in LC, Connery doesn't wear a tweed suit, as it may seem - Jones Sr. donned a navy/carnation Laura Ashley dress with a distinctive floral pattern.

I'd swear that was a Jones New York, not a Laura Ashley...are you sure you're watching this fully calibrated to THX specs? I'm sorry, SJ, but you're a heretic, there's just no way that could be a Laura Ashley.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:07 pm

That picture of Indy studying th idol seems to show a reasonably thick felt.

Take a look at the shape of the brim and how on the left side, it's pushed up higher. I'm not sure how to explain this without showing it, but you simply can't do that with a heavier weight felt. If you tried to push the one side up as in the pic, it'd just fall back into place. Only the lightweight felt would allow the brim to be contorted as in the pic.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:13 pm

agent5 wrote:Also, as a another professional artist, I for one cannot think of a reason why they'd choose such earthy colors for the costume of Indiana Jones and then ruin it all by sticking on a solid black ribbon. It would stick out like a sore thumb. Just my opinion though, of course.

I have to agree w/ 5 on principle here, also having an artistic background...it was obviously intended to put him ENTIRELY in earthtones...if a black ribbon got out there, it was probably a mistake.

Of course, if there was more than one hat, it's possible some of the shots DID have a black ribbon...there, that ought to chum the waters a bit...

And Bink, you wear any colors you want baby. Whenever we are stuck in a restaurant w/ crayons and paper (hey, I have CHILDREN), my little girls ask me to draw the color wheel for them, and I show them how all the colors work together...

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:58 pm

Let me throw in an observation - mainly aimed at Fedora I guess. Looking at the pics posted by VP, although the shape of the hat may be different to some degree, suggesting perhaps a different block - to me the hats would appear to be of approx. the same thickness of felt. That picture of Indy studying th idol seems to show a reasonably thick felt. Perhaps these things are impossible to discern from such photos. BUT -is it totally impossible that the Poet hat has essentially always been the same and that it has appeared to be different due to the way in which it was styled and subsequently distressed. JUst think of the photos posted recently of a period HJ and how it had shrunk. I f the costume people used different distressing techniques perhaps the same hat could have come out very differently.
There is something in the pictures posted by VP that makes the hats look very related to oneanother.

You threw it at the right guy. I love talking this stuff, and while it all has already been discussed countless times, I still love to talk about it because of the new members. According to urban myth, Mr. Swales told a member, years ago, that the felt used for the Raiders fedora was from a South American supplier. This is feasable, whether it is true of not. Diving into sourcing bodies for my own line of hats, I can tell you, there are several companies in SA. And, most have imported to Europe, and not the USA, for years. HJ did in fact, swap felt body producers many times. I have personally seen 3 different felts on the HJs that I have reblocked. And 3 different blocks used on the Poet line. And, several different "sables" the original color, that is not an actual color, but a name. They sold many shades of brown, (what their current feltmaker featured), all labeled "sable." So, some of my observations came from actually, rebuilding these HJs. Now, not only have I seen different blocks used on the Hjs, but, I has seen crown heights, running from 5 1/4 open crown, up to a full 6 inches. No consistency at all for a hatter, especially one as old and established as HJ was at that point it time. The most accurate HJ that I ever saw, color wise(highly subjective), and block shape(Raiders) was Mike's HJ he bought from Kepler, back when Lee was importing Hjs and selling them here in the States. The felt was different too. Now, all of these other HJs, had what I call cowboy felt. A bit too stiff to be dress felt. This sort of felt is still made, but Hj chooses not to use it, unless they are using it now. What Hj used on many later Indy hats was this cowboy felt. I can just look at the pics from all 3 films, and visually see the different between the Raiders hat, and the others. But, I have seen several HJs up close too, and this has to have something to do with it. It is my opinion, that all HJs used the medium weight felt. But, even in medium weight felt, different felters supply different thicknesses for any given weight. A case in point. I am looking at an Argentine felt sample in the lightweight grade. It lies between the Optimo lightweight, and the Akubras. The medium weight from this company is close to the Akubras. I don't think you can get the Raiders complete look without the older type of felt. It can still be a medium weight, but if it is made with no stiffener, it will mimic the look of the Raiders fedora better. To me, part of that look is created by a vintage type, really supple felt, that a stiffer felt can't match due to the different characteristics. I used to buy into the theory that all 3 film hats came off of the same block, and the only difference was the characteristic of the different felts being the difference. But, after seeing HJ use different block shapes for the Poet, with a definite TOD block in the mix, I changed my mind. The more that I think about it, I think Swales dealt with them the same way he does other Americans. He just gives them what he has, regarless of block shape, and let's it go at that.

Fedora

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:44 pm

The raiders brim shape can easily be achieved on ANY hat just by turning it.

Turning is the key to the Raiders brim.

I agree wholeheartedly, although his hat in the pic I was refereing to was not turned. The center is lined up perfectly. Also, I can achieve the 'turned' look on my Optimo without actually turning it, just as in the pic. You simply need to shape the brim how you'd like it to stay and it does. That's the impossibility I was talking about in terms of the heavier felts. It just won't hold unless you steam it that way.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:05 pm

On the felt thickness issue, our good friend Rundquist, who has deserted us good fellas, posted some pics of the Raiders fedora, up close, making his point that it was a thinner felt. Course, this was a couple of years ago and who knows where they are now. He was the first one here, to notice the different characterisics of the felt and noted it, right before he bought his first Optimo. Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:14 am

I colored my brown ribbon with a black felt tip marker. So it's not exactly black and not exactly brown, but it has has lost it's sheen, like the Raiders ribbon. It only took a few minutes to do it. They had felt tip markers in 1981. ........(This wasn't a Sharpie brand marker, It smelled different- more like enamel paint, and it was huge and had Japanese writing on it)...Speaking of the Raiders block compared to the LC/TOD blocks, this seems to be the hat unturned (from the dock scene, first filmed veiw of the hat)

The left side is just weird, but the right side (above the bow) has a very non Raiders taper. It would have even more taper if the front had the tight Raiders pinch. (on the other hand, it's sitting up high on his head, and pulling it down might eliminate some taper) Maybe the Raiders block was closer to the TOD/LC blocks than you'd think?