Making a whip...strand width question

[MaxPlague]

Well, I've decided to try my hand at making a whip and I'm making great progress so far. However, I have a question and would greatly appreciate any input from you whipmakers.

Using the strand width calculation ( (dx4.6)/n=w ), I've found that the combined width of the strands wraps the handle about 1.5 times. Did I goof on the calculation? If this is correct, does that cause any trouble with plaiting the overlapping strands? If this is necessary, is it just for the bellies, or do you do that for the overlay/thong strands as well?

I've already done a 4 plait belly using strands that cover the handle once, and that seemed to work well enough. Nothing underneath seems to be showing through.

I'd just give it a whirl, but I'm at work right now and can't try it until I get home. This question is just buzzing in my head, so I thought I'd try for some advice here. Thank you for any and all comments.

Best regards,
J

[Paul_Stenhouse]

The wrapping 1.5 times around seems about right for the way I do it. By the way, I eyeball the width and don't do any more calculations. The only calculations I've ever done was in strand length (about 1.5 times the finished length you want).

But take my advice with a grain of salt, unless you've got elevated blood pressure!

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

[MaxPlague]

Hehe, I'll take that grain of salt of throw it over my shoulder for luck, I believe I could use it.

Thanks for the response Paul, I appreciate it.

[Paul_Stenhouse]

By the way, that 1.5 times the finished length is for 12 plait. For 4-plait, it's going to be less. Oh, ####, it's all dependent on your strand width. Wider strands cover more, covering a greater portion with each plait.

Hence, the grain of salt comment.

Have fun with it.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

[Dittmer]

By the way, that 1.5 times the finished length is for 12 plait.

Paul, does that same 1.5 multiplier work equally well regardless of whether you're calculating strand length for a 4' whip or a 20' whip?
-Mark

[Paul_Stenhouse]

Well, it works for me. I know that's a weak answer, but try this. Cut four strands out, 2 feet in length, and of the same width without taper. Plait the entire thing until you have short strands that can no longer be worked. Measure the plaited distance and subtract the extra length. That will give you some idea of the length lost during plaiting.

Then, always keep a notebook about the measurements you need/take, and keep track of them. David told me to keep a notebook and I *wisely* told him I'd remember it. Well, after reinventing the wheel on my third bullwhip, guess what I did? Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! I got a notebook. I made two different length whips, taking measurements on both, and then used excel to interpolate and extrapolate the different measurements I'd need for 3-16 feet.

Point to my rambling? Take measurements of what you do, because it's not going to be *exactly* the same way someone else does. It may be close, though.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

[Dittmer]

Thanks for the reply, Paul. I've been really good about keeping records of all my measurements. I made 2 snakewhips back-to-back and, based on the measurements from the first one, I was able to fairly accurately determine the strand length needed on the second one.

However, I've only ever made short whips that were 4' - 5' in length. So if, for example, the 1.5 multiplier works for me when making a 4' whip will it also work for me if I make a 20' whip? Or would I need a bigger multiplier for calculating strand length for a longer whip? I hope that makes sense!
-Mark

[Mola Ram]

Mark,
Where have you been?
Adam

[winrichwhips]

The strand width calculation in the original post looks about the same as what I use now for kangaroo hide work. As for strand length, Paul certainly gives some sound advice.

For my own two cents, when I started making whips I first took all of the measurements right out of Dennis Rush's book, which I got through Tandy Leather Co. about 12 years ago. After I had cut a few more sets, I began using this rough method:

I would look at the core to be covered and then cut 1/4 of the strands to be as wide as the diameter of the core. So for four-strand work, cut each lace the same width as the core. If you want a steeper-looking seam in the plaiting, cut 1/4 of the strands to be the width of finished piece of braiding (estimate this width by wrapping two pieces of leather around the core). I found this to work pretty well for cutting by eye and it's still the method that I use to cut 4-plait bellies in bullwhips. Actually, I also use this method to cut the overlays for my cowhide bullwhips (see my earlier post with pics).

The only thing to remember is that your final width is always determined by how much you pare off of the strand when you pare your laces. When I cut, the strands aren't all perfectly the same width, but when I pare I pick one as the model and then I pare all of the other strands to be the same width. If one's skinnier, I either pare all the other strands down or cut a new, wider strand to replace the skinnier one. The paring is what will make a cowhide whip come closer to approximating the look of a kangaroo hide whip.

Let me know if any of this helps,

-Adam, www.winrichwhips.com

[Dittmer]

Mark,
Where have you been?
Adam

Hey Adam! I've been busy with other things and was kind of on a whip hiatus for awhile. I'm getting the whipmaking bug again though so I'll probably start my next one within a couple weeks.
-Mark

[MaxPlague]

Thank you all again for the input, you're invaluable resources and friends. I'll be putting all your comments to good use, as I'm at home today and plan on putting a few more hours into the whip.

Best regards,
Jace

[Robert Duke]

Using the strand width calculation ( (dx4.6)/n=w ), I've found that the combined width of the strands wraps the handle about 1.5 times. Did I goof on the calculation? If this is correct, does that cause any trouble with plaiting the overlapping strands? If this is necessary, is it just for the bellies, or do you do that for the overlay/thong strands as well?

That is correct. I like Paul do not calculate strands anymore. I've cut out so many sets that you just know. And like Paul, I've kept a notebook for notes. OCcasionally I dip back into it, but in the beginning it was absolutley essential to measure lengths and widths, etc.

To overlap?? No problem to pare down some. But if there are gaps and the laces aren't wide enough, then you really goofed. Like the old carpenter's saying, Measure twice, cut once. You don't want to be too short or too narrow. It's better to be over then under on your calculations.


Good luck with your whipmaking. Let us know when you cut into your first kangaroo hide.

[Paul_Stenhouse]

Mark,

It should work out for you, making it of a longer length. It really all comes down to math.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

[Dittmer]

Great, thanks Paul!
-Mark

[Indiana_Hall]

Not to derail the original topic, but something Paul said has stirred my curiosity:

If you need to cut the the overlay 1.5 times the length of the finshed whip when you do it in 12-plait, about how much longer do you need to cut the strands for 8-plait or 4-plait?

Anybody have an answer?

High Regards, Indiana_Hall

[jerryrwm]

It's actually going to be about the same. Since you are actually spiralling the strands around the thong at an approximate 45 deg angle the finished length is going to be necessarily shorter.

So, 1.5 times the desired finish length plus a couple inches extra. I would rather cut off 4" of extra leather than end up 1" short!

Jerry

[Robert Duke]

[quote="jerryrwm"]I would rather cut off 4" of extra leather than end up 1" short![/quote]

Boy, I hate it when that happens!

[MaxPlague]

Robert, Jerry, Adam and Paul, thank you all again for the advice. I echo your sentiments exactly, better too wide and too long than too narrow or too short. Not much you can do with leather that isn't there .

I just put the 2nd belly on last night and it went quite well. It took me about 3 hours and 45minutes to condition, stretch and plait this 8 strand belly. I did have to drop down to a 6 plait about 2 or 3 feet from the butt. Man, I hope I get faster because that kept me up until 1:45am...but I was having so much fun that I couldn't stop. I haven't measured that final plaited length yet, I was just too tired. But my strands started at about 10'6" and hit 11'4" after stretching. I was gunning for about a 7' belly, so I'll see how long it is when I get home today.

Notebooks are essential for me at this stage in the game. As I went along, the notes I took proved useful and I'm sure I'll find it interesting reading in the future.

Best regards,
J

[Indiana_Hall]

jerryrwm,

Thanks for the info. It makes sense that as you are plaiting around the diameter that you would cut the same amount of extra length.
My only leather whipmaking attempts so far have been 4-plait yardwhips. I was aming for a 7' whip on my first try. I cut the overlay 3.5' longer than the desired whip length...What confused me was when I had plaited 7' and still had about 2.5'-3' left over.
I suppose what I'm getting at now is this: Does the amount of extra length depend on the size of the core?

High Regards, Indiana_Hall

[Major Mike]

Does the amount of extra length depend on the size of the core?

The 1.5 rule works if the width of the strands and the width of the core match. For instance, if you had a consistent 3/8 in diameter core (for say a dog leash), your strands would all stay the same width, and so the length you would need to cut them is 1.5 times the finished length.

When you have a tapered core, the width of the strands need to taper along the length to match up with the core, so they stay in the right relation to each other. If the strand width is tapering faster than the core, you end up with your strands doing more wrapping than running the length (think of twine or thread around a paper towel roll). So you are going to use more length of lace to cover your core, as you have to wrap it more times.

If the core is tapering faster that the strands, then the opposite happens. You don't have room to wrap, so the lace starts to run more than wrap (think about your belt wrapped around a soda straw). This will leave you with more lace than you figured at the end of your plaiting.

The two ways to taper the width of strands is to taper the width of each strand, or drop strands as you go. Actually, you end up with a combination of the two. If you drop strands early, the remaining strands have to travel around more times to cover, and so will reduce the amount of leftover at the end.

When I was first starting out, I would place the core on the roo leather and roll it one full turn around the diameter and make a mark. Then I'd add about 1/4 more of the circumference. That would get the set started. Then for every 9 inches of the belly, I'd measure 12 inches along the edge of the roo and do the circumference drill again. It was slow, but it kept the width of the strands matched to the width of the core.

One thing that was frustrating was I'd forget the swell where the handle meets the thong. So you have to increase the width here for a spell, before you start to decrease as you work toward the point.

I still get started that same way, but once I've got the swell measured, I cut the rest by eye and taper the strands. I always figure the strand length to be 1.5 times the length of the core, but then I add about three extra feet just in case. That extra three feet is pretty cheap, and its better than coming up short.

A bit long winded, but I hope it helps.

[Indiana_Hall]

Major Mike,

Thanks a lot. That's a big help.

For what it's worth, I've done quite a number of whips in nylon, so I'm used to dropping strands - cutting strands to taper is a bit of a new experience as of yet.

Thanks again for the advice...

High Regards, Indiana_Hall