The myth about the ToD Jacket

Lord_Clarence · Post by **Lord_Clarence** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:15 pm

I feel I must say something about what I think is a myth many people buy in to: that Indy wears the jacket for a significantly shorter time in Temple than in the other movies.

He wears the jacket from the change on the plane all the way up to arriving at Pankot. This includes the village, elephant, and camp sequences. After dinner, he again wears it all the way up to being captured by the Thuggee, which includes the tunnel exploration and ceremony. And finally we have the small end sequence.

Now let's look at Raiders, the Jacket Gold Standard. Indy wears the jacket through the introductory adventure sequence. He loses it for the college scenes, but wears it in Nepal. He loses it in Cairo, and doesn't wear it again (except for two minutes in the "bad dates" scene) until entering the Well of Souls. This is a lot of screen time without it, including lunch with Sallah, the basket chase, the Belloq scene, and all the scenes wearing Arab garb, including the map room. He wears the jacket from entering the Well of Souls all the way to the nighttime dock scene introducing Katanga. After that, the jacket is not seen again.

Last Crusade: The jacket isn't in the beginning sequence until we cut to the short boat fight. We don't see it again until the castle sequence and escape! He loses the jacket for the Nazi parade, but then wears it again for the rest of the film.

My methods: I used the VCR timer to measure time at the beginning and end of scenes in which the jacket is featured. I basically used the chronology of the story, and timed from when we know Indy is wearing his jacket to when we know he is not. Therefore, small scenes of the enemy, of the RotLA drinking scenes, and such where Indy is not there but we know he is wearing the jacket are included in the count. This hurts ToD (fewer cutaways), but is easier in the long run.

Temple of Doom Jacket Quotient(tm): Jacket scene time (46 min) / Total run time (118 min) * 100 = 39%

RotLA JQ: Jacket scene time (57 min) / Total run time (115 min) * 100 = 49%

Last Crusade JQ: Jacket scene time (75 min) / Total run time (128 min) * 100 = 59%

Clearly Last Crusade is the movie with the most jacket. If you want to say that ToD barely has the jacket compared to RotLA (at 10% difference), then you have to say something similar comparing RotLA and LC. If you ignore the different run times and just go with scene length, then there is a bigger difference between the latter two movies than the former.

Given the small sample space (three movies) and the data at hand, I conclude that the Jacket time in Temple of Doom, while shorter, is not significantly shorter than the other movies. ToD certainly falls within one standard deviation of the mean JQ, 49%.

Okay, I admit, a lot of this is semantics.

But really, it seems to me that Temple of Doom has a healthy amount of Jacket Time.

Cordially,
Lord Clarence

Post by **Indy Magnoli** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:37 pm

Brilliant work! =D>

Kind regards,
Indy

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:02 pm

Great detective work, Lord Clarence.

Now....step away from the VCR, and drop the Indiana Jones trilogy.

Just kidding, of course.

IndianaGuybrush · Post by **IndianaGuybrush** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:59 pm

You know, I'm glad I took a college statistics class so I could follow half of what you were saying

.

However, if I may introduce another facet of my college experience, that of a being psychology major, may I submit that there is a significant perceptual difference in the jacket's role in the 3 movies. Both the Raiders and LC jackets are distinctive in their own ways.

Raiders was our first look at the jacket, and as we watched the movie it became more and more distressed. The movie itself also showcased the jacket somewhat more, by showing us indy brushing tarantulas off of it, or having it dragged behind a truck.

LC had the grail diary being pulled out of the front cargo pocket, as well as the line "can you reach my left jacket pocket," not to mention the extreme distressed state of the jacket, a characteristic which drew even more attention than it's enormous collar.

Also, let me mention the psychological phenomenon dealing with primacy and recency. In a nutshell it states that the first and last items encountered are better remembered than intems found in the middle. The tenant holds true whether referring to a grocery list, a list of nonsense words, or even the amount of screen-time a jacket gets in a movie.

While your data suggests very strongly that there is no significant difference in the screen time of ToD from RoTLA, there can definitely be seen a perceptual difference of the jacket's prominance in those two movies.

Post by **Ken** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:22 pm

I think also because its such a dramtic difference with the jacket off than on: its the shirt. In LC we never see Indy with just his shirt. In Raiders we do and while its a strong visual image, its also the first time we see the character so he is a strong image with his jacket on too.

In TOD they really put emphasis on the look of Indy with his shirt - they even tear one sleeve off it so the emphasis we place on the image of Indy and the shirt is really ingrained in our head.

Ken

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:24 pm

Great job putting that college level psychology into words us High School students can understand IGB. I definitely agree that since the Raiders jacket was the original, and the LC jacket was the most recent one, that they are going steal the spotlight and make whatever time the ToD jacket does have seem minimal. This is often experienced in families of more than two children where the middle child feels neglected. I'm not sure how correct the part about LC having lines in reference to the jacket because I can't recall Indy saying anything about his jacket in Raiders, and the Raiders jacket is just as famous if not more so than the LC one.
Let me also suggest that although on paper the Jacket running time may not seem very different from movie to movie, it seems much greater in real life. For example, according to your stats the running time of ToD is 3 minutes more than Raiders, but to me, ToD seems WAY longer than Raiders when I watch it. :junior: -IJ

Trevelyan · Post by **Trevelyan** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:05 pm

IndianaJones wrote:Let me also suggest that although on paper the Jacket running time may not seem very different from movie to movie, it seems much greater in real life

I feel the same way. I guess the main difference in TofD is that Indy doesn't choose to be without the jacket, but he actually loses it for a significant amount of time. This, combined with the fact that the major action in the 2nd half of the film comes without the jacket, makes the time without it seem more lengthy.

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:07 am

Great job LC!

Now I like my Temple auth. goat even more.

And if someone asks about this, I'll know what to tell them... Mostly people from COW I guess and not the average guy from Sweden.

High regards,
Swindiana

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:09 am

Clearly Last Crusade is the movie with the most jacket.

"I've got a fever.. and the only prescription, is MORE COWBELL!"

-Christopher Walken, SNL [VH1 Behind the Music: Blue Oyster Cult]

Somebody had to say it!

JAN · Post by **JAN** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:47 am

Great work, LC

Our mind can really play tricks on us.

I was looking for a good screenGrap :idea: of the Last Crusade-holster, only to find that Indy hardly wears it in the movie.

It could be fun having kind of a "How-much-wear-gear" list for each movie - we will be suppriced, I guess.

Best regards

JAN

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:47 pm

You were looking for a WHAT of the LC holster?

/SJ

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:33 pm

Great job putting that college level psychology into words us High School students can understand IGB. I definitely agree that since the Raiders jacket was the original, and the LC jacket was the most recent one, that they are going steal the spotlight and make whatever time the ToD jacket does have seem minimal. This is often experienced in families of more than two children where the middle child feels neglected

Also might have something to do with the fact that the 'Temple' jacket was garbage. NOT the current Wested, but the infamous French TOD jacket.

Also, the LC jacket was the most marketed, as all of the available styles (Cooper, Disney, etc, etc) copied the 'Crusade' look. That has something to do with the 'Crusade' jacket being memorable.

Cassidy

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:45 pm

I apologize if the above sounds smarmy, it wasn't my intention. I'm actually quite amazed and humbled with Clarence's findings. Fascinating and puzzling at the same time.

Which begs the question (at least for me):

Over the course of how many days did 'Raiders' occur, as well as the other films. Is there any way to tell?

Any guesses?

Cassidy

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:06 pm

I feel the same way. I guess the main difference in TofD is that Indy doesn't choose to be without the jacket, but he actually loses it for a significant amount of time. This, combined with the fact that the major action in the 2nd half of the film comes without the jacket, makes the time without it seem more lengthy.

True. The major action sequence of Raiders is the truck chase. And ofcourse, Indy has the jacket. In ToD the major action sequence is the rope bridge where not only is he missing his jacket but also half his shirt. In LC the major action sequence is the tank chase, for which he has his jacket. So this perception of almost no jacket sequences correlates perfectly with the biggest action sequence in each movie. :junior: -IJ

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:24 pm

Kind've funny that he keeps the jacket in the desert but 86's it in the subterranean nightmare.

Cassidy

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:41 pm

IndianaGuybrush wrote:Snip~Rip~Cut~Tear...Also, let me mention the psychological phenomenon dealing with primacy and recency. In a nutshell it states that the first and last items encountered are better remembered than intems found in the middle. The tenant holds true whether referring to a grocery list, a list of nonsense words, or even the amount of screen-time a jacket gets in a movie.

Although I confess I was not familiar with the theory of the “psychological phenomenon dealing with primacy and recency” until now that it's been explained to me. My own unscientific theory is that Indy spends more ‘quality time’ with his jacket in Raiders irregardless of however long he wears it. The other two films, although they are still very good just don’t have the same impact as the first, ...and that I would argue is because the Raiders fedora, as well as the jacket are arguably the best representations of those items of those three films.

Lord_Clarence · Post by **Lord_Clarence** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:21 am

Great discussion, all of you; I'm glad you found my obsessive calculations interesting! I couldn't agree more that the perception is actually quite different than the simple facts of "screen time." I attribute the main perceptual difference to the above mentioned jacket presence during major sequences. In ToD, the jacket is primarily involved in travel sequences, and not in any direct fights. In Raiders, we have the Raven bar fight and the whole Well of Souls/Flying Wing/Truck chase sequence. In LC, yes, the tank chase steals the movie, plus the castle rescue/escape.

I would have to say that the defining imagery for the Indy character is probably the intro to Raiders--walking through the jungle, defeating temple traps, and stealing that fortune and glory, getting banged up in the process. All while wearing that incredible jacket, my favorite item of gear (even if I still don't have one yet).

Cordially,
Lord Clarence

Lord_Clarence · Post by **Lord_Clarence** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:28 am

Cassidy wrote:Over the course of how many days did 'Raiders' occur, as well as the other films. Is there any way to tell?

That sounds like another great project! Hmm, in ToD, we've got a little time in Shanghai, some hours in the air, a day or two in the Indian village, a journey of unknown length to Pankot, unknown days in the palace (we see about a day, but maybe they stayed a while to rest up), and the return trip to the village. The main variable is just to figure out how long the trip between the village and Pankot takes. Given evidence of wear and tear, maybe total movie time of a couple of weeks?

I'm too tired to work out the others... maybe someone else wants to take a crack at it?

Cordially,
Lord Clarence

Trevelyan · Post by **Trevelyan** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:48 am

It's weird. As you detail the length of time TofD took, it seems about right. However, I had always viewed it as only a couple days adventure. They get on the plane, it goes down in or near India, travel to Pankot, beat Molo Ram, and leave. It just goes to show how much individual perception has an effect on film interpretation. Weird, wild stuff.

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:20 am

Well, there's always a bit of a difference between film time and physical time. If we really want to know this (which I do!) we need to set a standard. If it's based on wear and tear, let's figure that out. If it's based on physical time, we need to figure out the distance between Shanghai and the Mayapore Village, then the village and Pankot. Average out the speed of the plane, raft and elephant...the only trouble is Pankot is a construct of the imagination.

Cassidy