A real swinging whip

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Tue May 04, 2004 3:57 pm

Sergei and others.

Have you done any research on the construction of one of these? I'm making one and know how I want to do it, but I thought I'd throw this topic out. Certainly we've seen pictures of bullwhips that will crack, from the movies, but what about cable cored whips?

Again, I know how I'm going to end mine, but I'd like to see what these look like, and what you (or anyone else knows).

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu May 06, 2004 1:00 pm

I need to find out where I read this, but my understanding was the "stunt" whips were made from a steel cable core, braided with roo or cowhide.

I would call Jo Benson at WSP. She would know more about this or at least refer you to someone that would know more. Another resource would be Joe Strain.

-S

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Thu May 06, 2004 3:26 pm

I thought DM said he braided a whip with a cable core for The Mask of Zorro. I'm not sure though.

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Sat May 08, 2004 10:08 pm

I'm really more curious about how they finished the end. I have an idea for a thimble and some clamps. I'll have to do that when I get back from Idaho.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sat May 08, 2004 10:30 pm

Disclaimer: I know absolutely nothing about whips.

It's possible that the cable cored whips in the movies, were attached to the places for HF to swing from, and never really used to whip onto the swinging points. Use a real whip to attach, CUT! Have stunt people attach cable core whip, start rolling film. Swing across CUT! Back to the real whip. Just my 2 cents

sab04 · Post by **sab04** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:48 pm

it seems that with a steel cable core it might be kinda stiff and would not grip the branch (or whatever) well. also it seems that it would be heavy and you would have to throw the whip hard
-scott

adamallstar · Post by **adamallstar** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:36 pm

Is anyone familiar with carbon fiber cabling? I stumbled across this website and sent them an email asking about cable thickness.

If a carbon fiber cable is flexible enough, it could be woven in the center of a whip and connected to the base of the handle and theoretically support the weight of a person without the stiffness that a steal cable would yield.

Just a suggestion...
I have no idea if it would work! I'll post whatever the fiber company replies.

adamallstar · Post by **adamallstar** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:17 pm

wow, ok they replied really fast

"Carbon cable has the flexibility of nylon rope but the low stretch of steel
cable. The low stretch can cause shock loads to be high so you need to use
appropriate safety factors. A cable with 500 lbs of tensile strength is
about 0.040" in diameter."

thats pretty impressive for such a small piece of cable... maybe this might allow for a more efficient "swingable" whip?

any comments/ideas/suggestions?

Robert Duke · Post by **Robert Duke** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:29 pm

That's pretty impressive Adam. I wonder if they will send you a sample? I'd like to see that.

Keep on cracking a smile.

Robert Duke

JerseyJones · Post by **JerseyJones** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:31 pm

Robert Duke wrote:That's pretty impressive Adam. I wonder if they will send you a sample? I'd like to see that.

Keep on cracking a smile.

Robert Duke

That sounds great !

You may also want to look up AvaStrap. It's a high tensile strength multistrand ribbon used for packing. It is freaking impossible to break by pulling on it. Just an idea.

Ken

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:33 pm

Anything with the words "carbon fiber" attached to it usually means many more $$.

What's the price on that stuff?

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

PS. I finished the handle and cable portion. Now I just have to braid over it.

Major Mike · Post by **Major Mike** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:53 am

I was talking with Mark Allen at the WWAC convention about whip construction and he was talking about a cable cored whip that I think Joe Strain was working on. The requirement was to have the cable slide through the whip (at this point I can't remember why), but the solution was to braid the whip over a flexible tube, with the cable running through it. This would allow the cable to be adjusted for length, perhaps to adjust to different sized anchor points.

That doesn't answer your original question, but adds a new element to this interesting hobby.

Putting all of 5 minutes thought into it, the cable would protrude from the braid and essentially become the fall. Some form of wall and crown knot or back braiding would end the braid, and if done creatively, could look like a keeper knot.

As for the end of the cable, if you are thinking of thimbles and clamps, I'd put some thought into splicing an eye into it. If you are using 7x7 cable, there is a splice called the Liverpool Eye splice (see Bryon Toss's book on sailboat rigging, available at West Marine, and home ported in Port Townsend). With an eye splice, you can camouflage the eye, or even braid right up to it. Its not terribly difficult to do, especially if you can do a regular eye slice in rope, but it does take a little practice to get the technique. If you are not in too much of a hurry, I've got the book and I've done one or two. With a few Scottish ales we should be able to figure it out.

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:03 pm

sab04 wrote:it seems that with a steel cable core it might be kinda stiff and would not grip the branch (or whatever) well. also it seems that it would be heavy and you would have to throw the whip hard
-scott

Sorry to pee on folks parades, but it doesn't matter how stiff or heavy the steel-cored whip is. It's never coiled for a belt, and it's never thrown.

The steel-core whip itself would not wrap the branch. Trying to do this, and then swing from it would be incredibly unsafe, and incredibly stupid on the part of the stunt coordinator. He'd never work on a big budget film again, (unless it was for Jackie Chan.)

The process goes as follows:

Actor, (in close-up, or medium shot,) pulls 6-10 foot "hero prop," (the one that is only used for close ups,) whip from his belt, and throws the whip in the direction of the anchor point for the swing.

Whip master does a wrap around the supposed anchor point. No one can tell it's whip master, because all we see in this shot is the fall of the whip wrapping around the swinging point.

Director yells "cut," and principle cast and camera crew go to lunch/trailer.

Stunt coordinator and crew attach fall end of cable-cored stunt whip to wrap point with bolts, clamps, carabiners and all sorts of triple redundant stuff, (and it has to be there for a hollywood production, or they don't get insurance. No insurance=no movie, and when stunts like this happen, the insurance vultures are always lurking right on set. This is why Jackie Chan doesn't do his own movies in the US, even when they're set there. No one will insure his brilliant insanity!) The other end of the cable goes down the sleeve of the stunt person and attaches to a safety harness under their trademark cape/leather jacket. Everything is checked and double checked.

They shoot the stunt, with stuntperson. Crew applauds, then starts to setup for the cut away shot, where the Actor catches his feet and then shakes loose the hero prop whip that has been re-wrapped around the anchor point by the whip master.

3 months later, a guy in front of an Avid cobbles it all together into the final sequence we all drool over.

The only whip-swinging shot in a Hollywood movie that I can think of that DOESN'T follow this formula is the swinging over the pit of lava bit from Temple of Doom when Indy is going after the Sankara Stones, and then, the only difference is that we SEE Harrison Ford touch lightly down on the opposite side of the chasm, and shake the whip loose. Notice we never see him coil the whip or see the fall end of it? He did the swing, (probably from a much shorter and safer distance,) and then the stunt crew released the anchor end of the cabled whip.

I'd still like to see what folks come up with for a cable-cored whip, though I doubt that it would be in any way practical, save for shooting cutaways like described above, (which means, I could actually use one!)

If you're going to try throwing, wrapping and swinging from them, PLEASE video tape it! You could probably win some money with the tape!

-Dan

Shawnkara · Post by **Shawnkara** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:35 am

I want to say first that I've never made a whip, nor do I fully understand the complexities of ther art. But I do have some undstanding of tensile strength and a bit of knowlegde on the subject, most of which was learned the hard and painful way when I was younger and not too bright.....

It seems the biggest concern about a cabled whip is the flexibility of the finished whip. I don't think that would be a hard thing to overcome, as I don't think (opinion, of course) that a very thick cable would be needed. We've all discussed the hazards and relative stupidity of swinging from a perfectly good whip. But a well made whip would not fail instantly. You could get away with the stunt maybe a handful of times before the whip broke or was seriously damaged. Basically, a well made whip can ALMOST safely support the weight of a full-grown man. You don't really need a cable that can support all the weight by itself. That, of course, would be a pretty thick cable. In my opinion you'd probsbly only need a cable that would AUGMENT the strength of the whip, so you could probably get away with a pretty thin cable. When I was in maybe 6th or 7th grade ( I had already reached 6' and about 175 lbs by this time) I had a cheap, cowhide swivel handle that I used to swing from all the time. I just didn;t know any better and I used to practice swinging from a tree in the back yard for several hours a day, nearly every day. I NEVER condition the thing and got it wet constantly. Fast foward 20 years, I still have that ratty old thing and it's still in one piece. So, I think maybe the capability of a really well made whip in this area is sometimes under estimated. One thing, which I'm sure is not necessary to mention to the seasoned whip makers here; David Morgan mentions not hanging a whip from a nail because the properties of the metal could damage the hide. So it might be a good idea to use cable sheathed in plastic or that carbon fiber stuff you guys are talking about. I don't know about cable, but carbon fiber makes one heck of a mountain bike frame.