Club Obi Wan

Greetings and Happy Advent!

First off, hope everyone is well! A recent opportunity came up recently too hard to pass up. A good friend of mine, Trent Ryan on FB, had up for sale a 10' Strain whip he bought from a whipmaker by the name of Casey Tyler. Casey claimed this was a stunt whip for KOTCS. Yes, one of the small batch of 10'ers Joe Strain made! I had only heard about it and saw the pics, but other than that, nothing came of it.


Here's the info Trent gave me on the story:

"What I was told was an estate sale. The guy lost the COA and forgot where it came from. Casey used it for years up until his horse did something to the heel's strands and stuff, hence the rework. At that rate, apparently he felt the need to undo everything to assure the internals were undamaged; he redid the whole thing (original overlay) while him & I were acquainted and did a pretty #### good job."

Alright, so there's the claim. Now the evidence. At some point Joe Strain was contacted about this whip, and the below email was sent back:



As the above claim states, the whip's overlay has been replaited. From the information given to me, the knots have been replaced/reworked, so the heel and transition aren't in their original shape. But considering the transition knot is narrower on one of Strain's and has a slight taper, I used that as my specimen of comparison. Below's comparisons all use this same whip.
Also as a bonus, we could never determine where a Strain was used on KOTCS if at all. Well this isn't confirmation, but this BTS photo of the stunt doubles has been circled around, and the heel knot suggests either a DM or Strain.



Now we have a better idea of what this thing is. Still not convinced, but let's proceed.
I photoshopped (rather poorly) from an angled view of this whip with one of Strain's in the KOTCS batch. To reduce the angle, I had to distort the image, which is why the heel knot appears small and squashed.



The diamond number count comes out to about 14.5 and 15 diamonds in the handle on both. Already better. Now how about the final piece de resistance... the "KINK."
In this whip, there is a kink about 1' away from the fall hitch, circled below.



Now, reusing one of the pics of Strain's batch, photo sent by him, what do we find?



Bingo!
Now wait a minute, this "kink" in Strain's looks straighter, and a little further from the hitch? Well when Strain took this photo, it was brand new. From what I understand, the kink was said to have been there from the start when Casey got it, so consider usage over time - leather relaxes, flexes more, therefore making a larger and more noticeable bend. When it first was made, the kink was barely visible, but had just enough of an angle to be abnormal. Addressing the fall hitch, Casey had to replait the layer, and he rehitched it. So he reduced the length by a hair to get the new tighter fall hitch made, rendering it closer to the kink. Trent informs me that Casey's hitch needed work, so Trent did the hitch himself. Also the fall has been replaced at some point.

Am I 100% convinced? No, because it's a replaited whip with some very minor differences, and no COA. But with all the available evidence above, I'm personally at about 98% certain this is authentic.



I am proud to say I have now acquired this whip, and felt I should share this information with you guys! Thanks for reading my essay which would surely make a college English professor cringe

Cheers!

You really did your homework and quite some detective work, as well, man!

I think it most likely is an original from the movie. Even if it isn't, it looks like a reeeally well made whip!

Congrats on the purchase. And once again, great investigation!

Cheers,
Bear

baddates1 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:49 am ... Casey claimed this was a stunt whip for KOTCS. Yes, one of the small batch of 10'ers he made! ...

So he made them at Joe Strain's workshop? Or Joe Strain did?

Casey doesn't have the best reputation in the whip world. He accused other whipmaker of something terrible and he didn't even have any proof, just to start the s***storm.

The replaited whip misses the flare just under the ringknot - maybe it was not replaited carefully, maybe it isn't that whip at all.

By the way - the kink is visible due to the last strand drop, from 8 to 6 strands, it appears on many whips.

Good for you! Thanks for the pics and research, an interesting read.

Good looking whip and based on your detective work and re-work that is one beaut of a whip.
Never no mind the what others say, it probably is "the" whip.

How does it crack, man that's a nice looking whip.

Croft

tomek9210 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:11 am

baddates1 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:49 am ... Casey claimed this was a stunt whip for KOTCS. Yes, one of the small batch of 10'ers he made! ...

So he made them at Joe Strain's workshop? Or Joe Strain did?

Casey doesn't have the best reputation in the whip world. He accused other whipmaker of something terrible and he didn't even have any proof, just to start the s***storm.

The replaited whip misses the flare just under the ringknot - maybe it was not replaited carefully, maybe it isn't that whip at all.

By the way - the kink is visible due to the last strand drop, from 8 to 6 strands, it appears on many whips.

I'm quite familiar with Casey's bad behavior, but I'm not here to condone it. Just recounting a story here, plus my own detective work

D'op, just realized my typo gave the impression Casey made this whip at Joe's shop. No no, I meant that Casey had a whip made by Joe reportedly for KOTCS.

The thing to consider too is that when doing a replaiting overlay, the dimensions will be altered ever so slightly. This will be the result of pulling, thus the leather plaits won't line up exactly the way it was before. Different whipmakers, different hand strangths. This is why in the pics above, there's an almost "checkered" appearance to the leather between light and dark. The leather is pulled tighter than originally, so it stretches/budges slightly out of alignment.

I was considering the flare under the transition as well, and the thing to consider as well is that the transition knot Casey replaced on this appears to be shorter than the original. So possibly it doesn't extend to the flare as much because of it.

In regards to the kink, yes I considered the strand drop. As mentioned, the kink was there from the start. Each whip, even at the same pinpoints, will be plaited differently. Depending on the day, the plaiting may be tighter than the last, or looser. This just happens naturally with whips, but especially Strain whips. If you compare the dimensions of multiple of his Raiders whips next to each other, his dimensions are never consistent on the handle. Taller, shorter, etc. But keep in mind the hitch has been shortened from it's original length, because Casey needed a tighter plait hitch to end off on, and the originals were already stretched/molded into that shape. So it probably shortened by about a couple inches, and Trent did the finishing work on it.

So that being the case, the kink is the result of a tighter pull, thus exaggerating the drop from the strand, and creating the "pinch point" so to speak. Since the overlay is redone, it may have assisted in the kink becoming more apparent (plus the leather having been used over the years loosens the leather and it's fibers).

The whip arrives Monday, I can't wait to crack it

Indiana Croft wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:04 pm Good looking whip and based on your detective work and re-work that is one beaut of a whip.
Never no mind the what others say, it probably is "the" whip.

How does it crack, man that's a nice looking whip.

Croft

Thanks Croft! I should be able to crack it come Monday, so will report back then

I guess I'm the sort of person that has ultra OCD, so when I start going down rabbit holes, I really go haaaaaard ha!

Post some pics of your own when you get it, if you can. I am excited to see more, the whip looks gorgeous!

bearbeast wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:25 pm Post some pics of your own when you get it, if you can. I am excited to see more, the whip looks gorgeous!

To quote Marcus, "Oh yes!!!"

As another note: The weathering on the handle.

As noted above, the overlay being replaited has shifted the braids, making them tighter, therefore the weathering will bounce from "light, dark, light, dark" versus the original "dark, dark, dark light, light" transition.

These two whips have a distinct "dark, light, dark" pattern on the handle. On mine (pictured right), the weather appears to have shifted ever so slightly, but again, that's the replaiting process. The origianl (pictured left) is not as HD in the pic, but we can still make out the same patter.



However the handle has a distinct weathering pattern that, while shifted, still holds up.



You'll notice the center of the handle is lighter on the Strain included in the pics. Now my whip also has this same pattern.

It's more noticeable when you put the photos in photoshop, increase the lighting contrast, and bring the shadows all the way down. Even in low light, you can see the center of the handle is brighter.
Also notice the shape of the newly replaited transition knot, while shorter, still has the upward inner taper towards the thong, like on the original pictured.

I think the story that it was re-braided holds up, for sure. I am really impressed of the way you researched this, looking at all details and understanding what has happened.

Hey guys!

I know, I should've jumped on here immediately after delivery, but the whip is finally here! It's absolutely beautiful, I'll post some more pics/potential findings real soon!

Congrats! Can't wait for the pics, man!

The mail with Joe you posted was between Joe and Me. i don’t think it is an original from kotcs imho, or at least no more after all the rework Tyler and trent made on it..but it is still a really nice whip

Ah yes, thanks for the clarification on the email!

I'd have to disagree. If a whip is rebraided/touched up, it doesn't make it any less the same whip. Just that it's been rearranged/repaired.

As an example: The ceremony dress Leia wore at the very end of ANH. It was since used as a rental that was torn, bloodied, stained, etc. But Propstore was able to restore it to it's former glory for their display a few years back. Does the repair work make it any less so? On the contrary, it's what it is - a restoration.

I'll post these pics later tonight, but I found some interesting grooves directly underneath the transition knot that seems to confirm my suspicion - that the transition knot redone by Casey was shorter than the original was. The grooves seem to have been imprinted onto the leather braids by really tight strands when Joe originally did it, not to mention they follow the similar trajectory of the strands doing over under passes.

A few things to keep in mind and consider.

A number of stuntmen and crew who worked on Kingdom of the Crystal Skull purchased personal whips from David Morgan, Western Stage Props and Joe Strain during filming and brought them to set. Some of these whips were later sold as having a connection to the film, despite never having been officially purchased by Lucasfilm, ever having been part of the production or ever having seen screen time. One of these whips was also featured on the TV show Pawn Stars: Season 1: Episode 11.

The name of the stuntman that this bullwhip originally came from has either been omitted, or forgotten, making it difficult to collaborate the whips provenance and facts to the story behind it.
The whip maker who came into possession of it took it apart, the knots and overlay were removed, re-plaited, the knots retied and at some point, it was given a new fall/cracker. That whip makers poor reputation aside, no matter how good a whip maker was/is, that kind of a rebuild changes the physical quality & characteristics of a whip significantly, including original identifying patterns in the overlay, kinks, bends and strand drops, etc. especially over the last few feet of the thong, where there is no plaited belly to preserve an original underlaying core structure and shape.

Lucasfilm was not in the habit of giving away the whips they purchased to stuntmen or crew during KOTCS. Even the films whip coach, Anthony De Longis had to purchase his own separately, to be able to have one on set to use and keep afterwards. Doug Harlocker, the films prop master kept tight control over the production made whips to keep them from walking off set, with the exception of one or two hero, Terry Jacka bullwhips that reportedly went to the likes of Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford; the rest supposedly went back into the Lucasfilm Archives and have yet to surface in the collectors market.

These were all points I brought up to Trent when he contacted me last year with questions, upon first acquiring this whip. Could it be one of those personal whips purchased by a stuntman while working on the film? Possibly, given the story behind it. Is it one of the five, 10ft’s bullwhips that Joe Strain made specifically for Lucasfilm/Kingdom of the Crystal Skull? I doubt it, but stranger things have happened. I collect film/screen used whips, and own a number of them from various franchises including Indy. I have had several opportunities in the past to purchase this particular bullwhip, I passed on it. For me, there were too many inconsistencies and red flags for what it was being claimed to be. I commend the research being done and hope it continues though, and whether it is or is not what it is claimed to be, the important thing really is that you like your whip and are happy with the purchase.

Dan

BullWhipBorton wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:53 am A few things to keep in mind and consider.

A number of stuntmen and crew who worked on Kingdom of the Crystal Skull purchased personal whips from David Morgan, Western Stage Props and Joe Strain during filming and brought them to set. Some of these whips were later sold as having a connection to the film, despite never having been officially purchased by Lucasfilm, ever having been part of the production or ever having seen screen time. One of these whips was also featured on the TV show Pawn Stars: Season 1: Episode 11.

The name of the stuntman that this bullwhip originally came from has either been omitted, or forgotten, making it difficult to collaborate the whips provenance and facts to the story behind it.
The whip maker who came into possession of it took it apart, the knots and overlay were removed, re-plaited, the knots retied and at some point, it was given a new fall/cracker. That whip makers poor reputation aside, no matter how good a whip maker was/is, that kind of a rebuild changes the physical quality & characteristics of a whip significantly, including original identifying patterns in the overlay, kinks, bends and strand drops, etc. especially over the last few feet of the thong, where there is no plaited belly to preserve an original underlaying core structure and shape.

Lucasfilm was not in the habit of giving away the whips they purchased to stuntmen or crew during KOTCS. Even the films whip coach, Anthony De Longis had to purchase his own separately, to be able to have one on set to use and keep afterwards. Doug Harlocker, the films prop master kept tight control over the production made whips to keep them from walking off set, with the exception of one or two hero, Terry Jacka bullwhips that reportedly went to the likes of Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford; the rest supposedly went back into the Lucasfilm Archives and have yet to surface in the collectors market.

These were all points I brought up to Trent when he contacted me last year with questions, upon first acquiring this whip. Could it be one of those personal whips purchased by a stuntman while working on the film? Possibly, given the story behind it. Is it one of the five, 10ft’s bullwhips that Joe Strain made specifically for Lucasfilm/Kingdom of the Crystal Skull? I doubt it, but stranger things have happened. I collect film/screen used whips, and own a number of them from various franchises including Indy. I have had several opportunities in the past to purchase this particular bullwhip, I passed on it. For me, there were too many inconsistencies and red flags for what it was being claimed to be. I commend the research being done and hope it continues though, and whether it is or is not what it is claimed to be, the important thing really is that you like your whip and are happy with the purchase.

Dan

Thanks Dan!

Oh yeah, will keep these things in mind. I'd say one of the things as mentioned in the research above is the darkened patterns along the handle showing a different story. Notice on each end of the handle it appears darker, with a lighter mid section. The same applies to this whip, not to mention the replanting has shifted some of it slightly to create an almost "2 tone" checker look to it.

That being said, I guess the only way to 100% prove whether or not it is is to some day have Joe Strain dismantle it to see if it has the same specs underlying the overlay.

I am reserving judgment of whether or not this is a Strain whip as I am woefully unqualified to make any determinations on that front, but I am surprised by how skeptical people are about this, given how the original Raiders hat block has been found or recreated, and many other props or pieces of Indy history have been recovered over the last several years. It does not seem impossible or even unlikely to me that this could be a Strain whip, as even big studios often lose props or have them misplaced or taken by actors or stuntmen. Until definite proof of it not being a Strain comes out, I'm just going to be happy that another prop has been recovered by a fan