Club Obi Wan

The Raiders fedora has a tight pinch - where you can see a distinct line in the front. The Last Crusade/KotCS hats do not - they are much softer.

Is the tight pinch something that would have been put in by Herbert Johnson or the movie studio?

As I understand it Deborah Nadoolman was the key influence in the unique shape of the Raiders fedora.

In terms of a tight pinch I think it is very much each to their own, and your personal style.

I do remember a Matt Deckard video (I think) where he suggested that men with less money, not able to get the new seasons fashionable hat, would often re-bash there last season hat with a tight pinch to get another season out of it.

Gerry


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The Aviator wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:50 am As I understand it Deborah Nadoolman was the key influence in the unique shape of the Raiders fedora.

In terms of a tight pinch I think it is very much each to their own, and your personal style.

I do remember a Matt Deckard video (I think) where he suggested that men with less money, not able to get the new seasons fashionable hat, would often re-bash there last season hat with a tight pinch to get another season out of it.

Gerry


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Thank you! Yes I have been looking at everything I can find on the subject and have seen similar about how a hat would only last one season. I'm sure that sounds nuts to most of us.

Another thing I saw mentioned was about Nadoolman basically being "fired" after wasting too much money on jackets. I didn't see any further details sadly, but I really want to know more about that story.

I can't claim to have done exhaustive research, but I haven't seen the Raiders pinch in vintage photos, nor have I seen a hat styled as such in catalog listings. I deduce from that the crease was not common. The hypothesis that it came out of a well worn hat makes a lot of intuitive sense to me.

The 'last one season' thing was attributed to Mr. Swales with regards to the Poet in the 80's. I don't think this was necessarily true of all hats, and I think it would have been less true for a real life Dr. Jones. The average hat in 1936 would have had better felt than the average hat in the 1980's, which is simply not a desirable decade from the perspective of a hat collector. 1936 was before mercury was banned in the U.S. I have a couple pre-war Stetsons that are likely mercury processed felts and the differences to a modern felt are stark, e.g. I did not need any steam to put this popped-up diamond crease:


In addition to being higher quality, there was the expectation that hats could be serviced, up to and including a full factory renovation. There were certainly seasonal styles, and advertising encouraged buying a new hat as styles evolved, but I don't think that most vintage hats were designed to last only a year.

Very interesting, thanks for your research. It does make sense that hats were designed to last longer than a season or so. Still a depression in 1936. That's wild how that vintage felt responds to shaping, I never knew that. Again, thanks jlee

Whereas most hats would have been expected to be used for more than one year, even back in the day, there were varying qualities of hats made. Some would have only lasted one year of heavy use. Vintage hats that have survived to the present day would have been from the highest quality felts. The cheap hats ended up in the trash so we only see the best from that era around now.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

You want to see some tight pinched hats in the period, look for the original Dick Tracy serials from 1936. There are a LOT of examples there!

Regards! Michaelson

I was going to say...the best research on this is watch a bunch of old movies on TCM.

jlee562 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:12 pm I can't claim to have done exhaustive research, but I haven't seen the Raiders pinch in vintage photos, nor have I seen a hat styled as such in catalog listings. I deduce from that the crease was not common. The hypothesis that it came out of a well worn hat makes a lot of intuitive sense to me.

The 'last one season' thing was attributed to Mr. Swales with regards to the Poet in the 80's. I don't think this was necessarily true of all hats, and I think it would have been less true for a real life Dr. Jones. The average hat in 1936 would have had better felt than the average hat in the 1980's, which is simply not a desirable decade from the perspective of a hat collector. 1936 was before mercury was banned in the U.S. I have a couple pre-war Stetsons that are likely mercury processed felts and the differences to a modern felt are stark, e.g. I did not need any steam to put this popped-up diamond crease:


In addition to being higher quality, there was the expectation that hats could be serviced, up to and including a full factory renovation. There were certainly seasonal styles, and advertising encouraged buying a new hat as styles evolved, but I don't think that most vintage hats were designed to last only a year.

Interesting stuff! Thank you for the info and to everyone else who replied.

And if anyone knows any good reads about the behind the scenes drama with the costume designer etc please let me know

The only thing I can offer is having "inherited" hats that were worn by older relatives who passed away in the 1960s, the older "fishing" or "yard work" hats had a tight front pinch, while the current "church" hats did not. I assume from that, that the owners handled them by the crown and they gradually wore them out that way.

Ridgerunner58 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:50 pm The only thing I can offer is having "inherited" hats that were worn by older relatives who passed away in the 1960s, the older "fishing" or "yard work" hats had a tight front pinch, while the current "church" hats did not. I assume from that, that the owners handled them by the crown and they gradually wore them out that way.

I've noticed that celebs in movie almost always hold their hats by the pinch, usually towards the top of course so the pinch going from top to ribbon is rare like the raider hat. From Bogart all the way to Rathbone. But I reckon when you can just hop down the street to buy another hat or get it refurbished it wasn't near a concern as it is today.

Go search the Gettyimages.com site for New York City 1935.
You’ll see all sorts of hat styles, bashes, etc, including the raiders hat.

I posted some pics here a number of years ago of such hats.

Would be curious as to the cost of living difference in theses hats…

Wow. What prices. How much is around $2 or $3 in today's money?

Update: $2 in 1935 would be around $43 today. Still not too bad.

Or, the $4.65 hat would cost, according to online inflation calculators, $99 in 2022.

Yet in reality, a good quality felt fedora can cost easily five to ten times that price, $500 to $1000.

So hat prices have escalated at somewhere between five and ten times the regular inflation rate.

Kind of a rip-off, it seems at first glance.

But in the 1930s, demand was much higher, so there were far more manufacturers and retailers of mens hats. Economy of scale applied to the hat business. Today, the fedora is a niche market, and hats are specialty goods or even luxury goods, rather than being common everyday commodities.

I'd love to have the "Rancher's Carlsbad" model!

I think out of those offerings I'd have to go for the Baron (I think I'm reading that correctly?)

Were they usually rabbit fur back then?

Lower end was rabbit, but then as now, the higher the price you were willing to pay, the better the felt and usually beaver.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:34 am Lower end was rabbit, but then as now, the higher the price you were willing to pay, the better the felt and usually beaver.

Regards! Michaelson

So are higher quality 1936 hats about on par with higher quality ($500) hats these days?

I know I just saw a video someone posted here I wish I could find again where a vintage hat's fur was moldable like clay which looked really neat.

On the whole I would say yes. The custom hat makers we have today go out of their way to source the best possible felts so would likely be on par with high quality felts of yesteryear.

One big difference is in the felting process. Fur used to be processed into felt using mercury. Mercury treatment allowed for tighter felting of the fur fibers leading to higher quality felt. As we know now, being exposed to mercury through contact and inhalation leads to a variety of health issues (hence the term Mad as a Hatter) so once the danger to health was established the use of mercury was banned in the US in the 1940s.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

davidd wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:30 pm Or, the $4.65 hat would cost, according to online inflation calculators, $99 in 2022.

Yet in reality, a good quality felt fedora can cost easily five to ten times that price, $500 to $1000.

So hat prices have escalated at somewhere between five and ten times the regular inflation rate.

Kind of a rip-off, it seems at first glance.

But in the 1930s, demand was much higher, so there were far more manufacturers and retailers of men's hats. Economy of scale applied to the hat business. Today, the fedora is a niche market, and hats are specialty goods or even luxury goods, rather than being common everyday commodities.

I'd love to have the "Rancher's Carlsbad" model!

Making these kind of inflation comparisons is tricky. The average car cost $760 in 1936. That's $16,200 in 2022. Cars are certainly at least as popular and plentiful as they were in 1936, but a new one is significantly more expensive than that.

The other comparison to make is wages. $4.65 for a hat would have been a larger proportion of most take home pay in 1936 than $99 is today.

I agree that high quality hats are definitely considered a niche luxury item today. Folks I know ask occasionally how much my hats cost and are floored.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Indiana Jeff wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:44 am Making these kind of inflation comparisons is tricky. The average car cost $760 in 1936. That's $16,200 in 2022. Cars are certainly at least as popular and plentiful as they were in 1936, but a new one is significantly more expensive than that.

The comparisons are tricky, and I find that the "general purpose" inflation calculators do not seem at all accurate when looking at many items, in particular large-budget items like automobiles or houses.

Depending on where one shops, a gallon of milk today (mid-2022) costs about the same as the high-end Sears hat cost in 1936.

I wonder how much a gallon of milk cost in 1936? Through the amazing marvel of the World Wide Web, that question can be answered within seconds: about 47¢.

Source: https://www.tasteofhome.com/article/her ... were-born/

So the high end hat cost ten times as much as a gallon of milk.

The budget hat, at under two bucks, cost about four times as much as a gallon of milk in 1936. The "Neat Military Style" at a buck thirty-nine cost the equivalent of three gallons of milk.

What kind of hats can we get today for the cost of three gallons of milk, or fifteen bucks? A nylon "trucker cap"... maybe?

Of course, the nylon trucker cap is the standard hat of today, like the fedora was three-quarters of a century ago, so perhaps the comparison is appropriate.

I would hazard a guess that the three-gallons-of-milk hat might have only lasted a season or two of daily wear, considering the relatively low price even then. In other words, perhaps a low- end fedora had a durability similar to that of a cheap trucker cap.

But the top-grade hat costing ten times the price of a gallon of milk: well, is this where the phrase "ten gallon hat" comes from?

Well yeah, inflation impacts throughout the economy in different ways. Like I just bought a 'cheap' 50" tv for the garage for $150 that is far better than what a $3,000 tv would have been 20 years ago. I mean, I remember way back when my parents *financed* a console tv that was probably around 26" (back in the old 4:3 aspect ratio days) which today would probably come out to like $5,000 dollars. It was a piece of furniture. But that's the thing with high-end electronics with 1,200+ different manufacturing inputs that can mostly be delegated to automation (and globalization). Inflation is MUCH higher in labor costs than in materials, and the more labor at every step means the higher the retail price.

And that's the thing about felt hats, as well as finished leather goods. The technology of felting as well as tanning hasn't really changed much at all in at least 100 years. In fact, much of the equipment still in use is quite old. And there really isn't a whole lot you can do about it; some of it could be more automated but we have to remember that felt hats as well as anything better than generic cheap lambskin leather goods are a niche market these days. They're much more widely available today, especially good felts, than they have been for much of the last 50 years, but they're not the everyday standard like they were 80-100 years ago. Every stage of the process from the animal to the finished product involves skilled labor.

And the other thing to factor is purchasing power and average income. The average US annual income in 1936 was about $1,200, so a $5 felt hat was around .4% of their income. The average US income today is over $60,000, meaning a $500 hat is about .8% of the average income. So in real terms it has only doubled.

Now as far as the pinch, the tight pinch was certainly around. I have family photos with some examples, and there are plenty one can find online. I mean I talked about it once with my grandfather years ago. The general idea was yes, it's to extend the life of a well-worn hat to put off getting a new one or a reblock. The tight pinch going all the way to the ribbon adds a sort of spine to the crown and the bash that helps reinforce it. As many of use know, the felt can start to get a little too sloppy and silly looking with extended use, especially in an urban setting with everyone walking around in business attire. Think about today going out with a wrinkled shirt that would cost you a month's pay to either buy a new one or get it laundered and ironed -- you'd probably look for a way to extend it a bit. That said, the LC-esque tight pinch at the top and then quickly opening up toward the ribbon was very popular in the decade or so on either end of the war. Think Bogart. People did often pick up their hat by the pinch despite etiquette, so it's not a stretch to imagine that tight pinch gradually extending.

Higher quality felts did have a higher percentage of beaver. Nutria was regarded as the highest quality in the early decades of the 20th century. 100% beaver felts were not as common as they are today though. For a decent span of midcentury years, a 3x Stetson, was an exceedingly nice hat.

This ad isn't dated, but it's pre-1950 based on the store's history:


Since the decade isn't clear, I'm not 100% sure, but the 7x listing here may be for a pure beaver hat (7x Clear Beaver was among the most expensive grades). Eventually the $100 Stetson 100 was introduced (other brands also had "100" hats around the same period) as the top of the line hat, it was more or less the same as the 7x Clear Beaver hats, but it came with a fancy suitcase style hat box. While there are a decent number of these floating around the vintage market, you're far more likely to find the lower quality grades.

It is hard to make a direct quality comparison to today's hats. For example, I have a Royal quality Stetson Playboy, which was the lowest quality grade. But the felt does have a thinness and shapeability that modern hats just don't have. The leather by this time was real thin and cheap, not as nice as what you'll find on most custom hats today. While the technology for felting hasn't changed much, switching away from mercury changed the qualities of the felt. It also appears that the blanks just don't spend as much time in the felting process and some of the bodies used to be stored for a while for the felt to 'deaden' a little bit.

Oh, and I've got a Carlsbad! The funniest thing about this hat is this ad I found, which describes it as having "conservative proportions." (thumbnailed to not clutter the page, click for bigger version)

jlee562 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:51 pm Oh, and I've got a Carlsbad! The funniest thing about this hat is this ad I found, which describes it as having "conservative proportions."

How cool is that! Thanx for sharing the pics of the hat and the advertisement.

The Carlsbad looks similar to the somewhat more recent Tom Mix model. The Tom Mix has a bound edge and a 4-1/2 inch brim.

davidd wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:18 pm The budget hat, at under two bucks, cost about four times as much as a gallon of milk in 1936. The "Neat Military Style" at a buck thirty-nine cost the equivalent of three gallons of milk.

What kind of hats can we get today for the cost of three gallons of milk, or fifteen bucks? A nylon "trucker cap"... maybe?

Of course, the nylon trucker cap is the standard hat of today, like the fedora was three-quarters of a century ago, so perhaps the comparison is appropriate.

I would hazard a guess that the three-gallons-of-milk hat might have only lasted a season or two of daily wear, considering the relatively low price even then. In other words, perhaps a low- end fedora had a durability similar to that of a cheap trucker cap.

But the top-grade hat costing ten times the price of a gallon of milk: well, is this where the phrase "ten gallon hat" comes from?

That's a great analysis/comparison.

Though

is this where the phrase "ten gallon hat" comes from?

Regards,

Indiana Jeff