Club Obi Wan

Somewhere in here was a thread about "What's the deal with the SOC style?" or something like that. Must have been old because I read it a few days ago after a search and I cannot find it anywhere now, so in the interest of not necroposting, here goes...

There's a broader issue at play here regarding the overall Indiana Jones costume across each subsequent film, which I'll probably write whole articles or make a video feature about at some point, but needless to say, the Raiders look from head to toe (whether you like individual versions of parts more in other films) was tighter (both conceptually and literally), better thought out, and more custom constructed overall. Everything was less relative and far more dialed in with precision. The whip was locked onto the belt at the side, the bag was worn higher and closer to the waist, the jacket was shorter and tighter, the holster was smaller and custom for Jones' unique 4" M1917, and then there was the hat...

I've read comments here that the Raiders hat (and specifically the SOC) is a "cosplay hat." That it's not appropriate for regular wear. Well, last time I checked - it started life as a Herbert Johnson Poet just like the other hats. Maybe some people don't have enough fedora confidence to wear such a hat out and about, maybe there's some insecurity at play. I dunno for sure. What I do know is that the Raiders hat is the most distinctive hat in the Indiana Jones series, and the SOC is the ultimate expression of that distinctiveness. However, at the end of the day, it simply carries a different character than the other Indy Poets out there in the world. That's all. But it's not a "cosplay hat." It's a dress fedora.

I've worn Indy hats my entire life, and the Raiders SOC/Airplane/Truck Chase (guys, can we just start calling it the Raiders "Tunisia" from now on???) is the first love. It has the look of both a finely-styled men's hat with the broad brim and soft felt to keep the desert sun out of an adventurer's eyes while allowing the wearer to grab it and slap it over his head at a moment's notice when life goes from tranquility to urgency. I knew the Raiders Tunisia before there was ever a second Jones film in existence. And here's my final major point about the "SOC" -- It's the one seen OUTSIDE IN THE WORLD in situations most of us envision ourselves in. (No, not shooting people with swords in the street.) I mean, when we travel for holiday to foreign countries, we do a lot of walking outside, and our family members are shopping in the markets, and there we are alongside them holding their purchases while soaking in the culture of wherever we've gone. And there's the Raiders "Tunisia" right there in those scenes.

The "SOC" is the default mode for many of us in the Indy community because when we envision ourselves traveling, our minds put us in a long shot from the camera, walking leisurely in a foreign market, laughing with our companion, and that's a hard image to shake, and we want to look bang-on to that when the opportunity arises. The Raiders "Tunisia" is a huge part of that "achievement unlocked." And let's not forget one more thing - it's the hat he's wearing during 85% of the most iconic moments in Raiders - the swordsman, the marketplace fight, the airplane fight, the truck chase. If Harrison Ford ran away with the character, that hat ran away with the identity of Indy's headwear.

Let's just look at these quick photoshops here - with the Raiders SOC on the left placed on Ford's head from Temple of Doom, and from Last Crusade, with his actual Grail Temple hat on the right...




Tell me there isn't a small part of you seeing that image that isn't wistful that they'd kept a closer commitment to making sure his fedora kept a consistent character through the film series...

That's why the Tunisia fedora is such an icon, and a goal for so many, because it's not only a dynamic version of that very special hat from the original film that's never been revisited, but also because the further they've gotten away from it, the less and less regard they've put into the small but important details of Ford's outfit as time has gone on. It's presence is a lighting rod for everything that makes Indiana Jones so awesome, and its absence, while not fatal certainly, is felt by many. And so we seek to bring it back the only way we can - by bringing it into OUR lives and onto our own heads.

I'll end here. Pardon the amateurish photoshopping in places. I did my best to illustrate my point.

I wish I could write this much about a subject. Love your analysis and photoshops. Only thing, I believe many of the cosplay hat comments come from it being dirty, it’d be a little odd to go about the town in a hat with so much dirt on it. But yeah, the SOC hat is definitely my favorite look of the hat.

Agreeing with IJJTM, for me it's not the shape of the SOC hat that makes it cosplay, it's all the dirt and sweat stains on it.

Now, a well loved hat that has earned all of those markers falls right in line with your thoughts on "achievement unlocked."

An artificially aged hat done so to match a costume piece from a movie is cosplay.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Absolutely, Jeff - You're talking to a guy who doesn't do fake weathering on anything. Ask Michaelson! We've shared that side of the ring for decades! But what's interesting is I've seen the chatter on threads here where they don't seem to think other versions of the hat being weathered are cosplay. They target the SOC BASH as cosplay.

Yep, he and I are brothers in arms over allowing item to age naturally.

Regards! Michaelson

IndyFrench wrote: Tell me there isn't a small part of you seeing that image that isn't wistful that they'd kept a closer commitment to making sure his fedora kept a consistent character through the film series...

There is not for me, no. I quite like the LC hats.

Yes, of course it is a dress hat. But one that has been intentionally distressed. The 'turn' puts the ribbon in the wrong place making it look like a sloppily made hat (at least to me, having made a few hats of my own). I wear larger and more ostentatious hats than an Indy fedora, so speaking for myself, "insecurity" is way off mark. I don't think anyone would deny that the hat is a dress fedora, but simply stating that it's a dress fedora doesn't speak to the reasons why an individual might not want the SOC look as their primary hat.

I'm not against hats with a patina, I have both well aged vintage hats and a faux aged Rooster Cogburn hat. I'm not against creases or brims that are asymmetrical, I've got a Hollywood brim or two. I would not be so presumptuous as to ascribe what is "appropriate" for daily wear. But as a personal preference, I'm not interested in wearing a heavily distressed, 'dirty' hat as my primary hat. For me and my purposes only, I would categorize it as a 'cosplay hat' because the only instance in which I would wear it is cosplay. YMMV.

Just different strokes, that's all.

The SOC look is a BASH, not a distressing. ALL of the Indy fedoras are artificially distressed in the films. By your logic, not a single Indy fedora could be worn for casual use. Given the hat in your profile photo, I can't imagine you wouldn't wear an SOC BASH. You fail to take into account the many people, including myself, who wear the SOC WITHOUT ANY DISTRESSING. What do you call that version of the hat? Oh wait.... SOC!

Well, I think the issue is not everyone wants an Indy fedora with the turn and the mushrooming effect (or the weathering) of the SOC hat. That's okay. I think the SOC takes the characteristics of the Raiders hat to the extreme. Nothing wrong with that... I might be tempted get one one day. It is certainly the most distinctive of the hats.

As to the cosplay issue, I don't see the point. Just wear what you want. I mean, we are emulating the clothing worn by a fictional character... Call it cosplay or don't. What difference does it make? Any brown fedora will likely be synonymous with Indiana Jones, regardless of accuracy.

I don't think you've been wearing your hats in public that much. Most brown fedoras are given a "nice cowboy hat!" in public. Ask me about the last 30 years of wearing them...

Yeah, it’s pretty rare for me to get an Indy comment nowadays with just the hat, usually cowboy or nice hat is what I get.

IndyFrench wrote:I don't think you've been wearing your hats in public that much. Most brown fedoras are given a "nice cowboy hat!" in public. Ask me about the last 30 years of wearing them...

Yep, the more time that passes between each film the less I've received Indy comments. The 90s it was pretty common but not so much now.

Even in Texas I've gotten more "cowboy" comments than Indy in the past decade or so.

I think some of the SOC depends on the face/head shape as well. It looks great on Ford but just like the rest of his gear, it was designed for Harrison Ford to look good on Harrison Ford.

The main site states this about Pollack, Ford and SS's choices for the AB design in CS....

"The hat sent was a replica of a Raiders style pinch, which unfortunately was viewed as a 'caricature of the Raiders hat' by men who preferred the more relaxed pinches of Temple of Doom and Last Crusade."

And if that was just a normal raiders style and specs, imagine if Marc had sent a SOC style It makes me think that even some of the original players in this game had different opinions on what hat looked good on an aged Ford as no matter how good a shape he's in, he's not the Ford from Raiders anymore.

I guess my point is, a SOC fedora would look ridiculous on me and would come off as a costume piece versus when I wear an LC or a CS. But I have no problem with anyone that wears it and it does look good on folks.

As many have said, wear what you want. One person's cosplay is another person's daily wear.

Yeah Jack, I completely get that, standard Raider specs do not fit me. As someone who wears similar to Ford’s size it surprises me how much a standard Raiders takes over my whole face. Seems like I need smaller proportions for it to look good on me.

IndyFrench wrote:I don't think you've been wearing your hats in public that much. Most brown fedoras are given a "nice cowboy hat!" in public. Ask me about the last 30 years of wearing them...

Hey....I got a 'Dundee' one time, years ago with a brown 'Indy' style... to some folks all 'hats are movie hats'....W>

IndyFrench wrote:The SOC look is a BASH, not a distressing.

I actually fundamentally disagree on this point. A crease in a hat implies some deal of intentionality, whereas we know from Nadoolman's account, that among other things, the hat was sat on in order to introduce irregularity into the look of the hat. To me, a certain crease denotes the base style, e.g., the Raiders hat is a center dent, tight front pinch. That's the crease, or what is sometimes referred to as the "bash." If one is recreating the SOC hat detail for detail, I would not personally define that as a specific crease in and of itself.

In other words, the SOC is a center dent with a tight pinch, but not all hats with a center dent and tight pinch are SOC hats. If I wanted to put a diamond crease into a hat, it would not particularly matter how far back or forward the 'points' of the diamond are placed, they can be right in the center (the John Wayne cavalry hat for example) or they can be towards the rear to add rake to the hat (the default Bogart look), but both are still diamond creases. You can even have a three point diamond or five point. The same cannot be said for an SOC hat. Say someone changes the depth of the side dents or added some front to back rake, it is no longer a SOC hat...but it is still a center dent with a tight pinch.

ALL of the Indy fedoras are artificially distressed in the films. By your logic, not a single Indy fedora could be worn for casual use.

All? You sure about that? Definitely not the train hat, the travel hat, or the wedding hat. I wouldn't describe a good proportion of the LC fedoras as "distressed," particularly the one in Donovan's apartment. And just as a note of historical context, it's eminently reasonable to assume a tenured professor would have his hats cleaned/blocked at some point, as it was quite regularly done back in the day.




More significantly though, you seem to have glossed over the fact that what I specifically pointed out I did not want was "a heavily distressed, 'dirty' hat." I was literally not commenting on your choice of a "clean SOC" look in the above comment. As I mentioned, I have hats with patinas both real and artificial that I do wear regularly. My issue is not with distressing per se, but the amount of it that is done to achieve the SOC look.

Given the hat in your profile photo, I can't imagine you wouldn't wear an SOC BASH.

I don't like the SOC look, it's pretty much as simple as that. The mushroom crown looks especially bad to me. As I mentioned previously, the offset ribbon looks weird and sloppy. I certainly would not describe a hat intentionally designed to look well worn as "finely-styled." It may have been that at some point in the past, but then adventures happened. The brim swoop is fine, but really, if you have good felt, you don't need to contrive a 'turn' into a hat to give the brim some character. I understand the impulse for the lived in look, especially with a soft felt hat. But personally, I would feel real silly walking around San Francisco with jeans and a frumpy looking hat covered in fake dirt and fake sweat stains. Again, YMMV. Just for me and the looks I like for myself, the SOC hat, even clean, is just too disheveled. No judgment if others prefer it for themselves. But this is a conscious decision about my personal aesthetics, not a lack of hat wearing confidence.

You fail to take into account the many people, including myself, who wear the SOC WITHOUT ANY DISTRESSING. What do you call that version of the hat? Oh wait.... SOC!

I'm not 'failing to take those folks into account,' I'm just stating my personal preference because you seem quite incredulous that anyone could not think the SOC hat is the best/most coveted. The Raiders hat generally is not even my fave of the Indy hats. Different strokes, that's all.

P.s. I've never once gotten "nice cowboy hat," even while wearing cowboy hats.

jlee562 wrote:
P.s. I've never once gotten "nice cowboy hat," even while wearing cowboy hats.

Really!? You’re lucky, or they’re saying it out of earshot. I guess it’s all in where you live. I have heard that at least once a year EVERY year for the past 30 years, and everywhere I’ve lived, from Florida to Ohio!

Some folks just think any hat that’s not a ball cap is a cowboy hat.

Regards! Michaelson

Maybe we should all start wearing a Justified hat and we might get a "hey Indy".



Sorry. Just started binging the show.

Mike wrote:Maybe we should all start wearing a Justified hat and we might get a "hey Indy".



Sorry. Just started binging the show.

I do love that show. Now if only I could get my wife to finish watching with me.

I digress. Raiders is my favourite of the films and the look just works for Ind tin the film but as a personal preference, I prefer the look of a more LC hat on me..

Well just my two cent.
I have to say that all my hats have the turn and I wear a Fedora literally every day.
When I look at my KOTCS, it has a slight turnish look.
When I ordered a ToD from adVintage, I asked for a slight turn.

I love the turn, but I have on order another from adVintgae, a SoC Masterpiece, with no turn.
Mushroom affect the dent the whole Shaba got, no distressing. But all my hats have the turn, I just wanted one with no turn.
I’ll probably regret it, as his SoC are sweet. Hoping this has the look, just no turn.

And I loved your photo shopping, did great. And a vert nice dissertation on the hat.

Croft

IndyFrench wrote:I don't think you've been wearing your hats in public that much. Most brown fedoras are given a "nice cowboy hat!" in public. Ask me about the last 30 years of wearing them...

I think it is generational. Every kid I've encountered calls it a cowboy hat. Everyone in their 40s or a bit older says Indiana Jones.

Michaelson wrote:

jlee562 wrote:
P.s. I've never once gotten "nice cowboy hat," even while wearing cowboy hats.

Really!? You’re lucky, or they’re saying it out of earshot. I guess it’s all in where you live. I have heard that at least once a year EVERY year for the past 30 years, and everywhere I’ve lived, from Florida to Ohio!

Some folks just think any hat that’s not a ball cap is a cowboy hat.

Regards! Michaelson

Lol yes, this is also a distinct possibility!

I usually just get "nice hat," or "I like your hat." I've only ever gotten an Indy comment while wearing a carbon grey Fed....The guy was sort of right about the Indy thing, but for the wrong reason!

I’ve found if I’m wearing a brown fedora I occasionally get the ‘Indy’ comment, but any OTHER color, no comment at all!

Regards! M

I am enjoying this discussion and wanted to contribute.

I must say that I used to quietly wish that one of the versions of the Raiders hat (whether it be SOC, Tunisia, the Idol Grab, or the Raven bar) had survived to star in at least one more movie, like Temple or Last Crusade. I personally do have a hard time picturing Mr. Ford wearing the Raiders hat as an older man during KOTCS (as not everyone looks as good as Croft! does in his Raiders ).

The photo alterations in this thread, however, have provided me with a new perspective though. I actually think that the Raiders hat is perfect for the Raiders Indy, but not for his subsequent adventures and iterations (and taking out of consideration for a moment that Temple is a prequal).

In Raiders, Indy is a young 38 years old, he is reckless, fly by the seat, tough, doesn't speak Hovitos, and has plenty of room to still grow into his trade and skills. There is also a sort of innocence about his character. Even his voice sounds more youthful and optimistic. And, for me, the Raiders hat (with all its eccentricities) speaks to and highlights this aspect of his "still to be polished" adventuring professor character. The Raiders hat is also a nice contrast to Belloq's clean and distinguished panama hat.

With that said, seeing the Raiders hat on the Temple Indy looks so misplaced for the Indy who we get in Temple. In my mind the Raiders hat makes the Temple Indy look nicer and more novice, whereas I think of the Temple Indy as harder and darker and less 100% hero. Again, I know TOD is a prequal, but the Temple Indy is who showed up, not the Raiders Indy by any stretch.

Seeing the Raiders hat on Indy in the Last Crusade pic, in my mind, deprives Indy of the growth in age and experience that we get in LC with his more subdued LC fedora. It seems to me that the LC Indy would have a far less peculiar Raiders hat, and a more stylish or subdued fedora by the time he is jetting off to Florence or adventuring with his Dad. In my mind I can imagine Henry Sr. being critical of the Raiders hat were Indy to have crashed through the window wearing it.

I realize the movies are similar in years for the most part, but I think in our collective minds we acknowledge that the Indy in each movie, from Raiders onward, matures and evolves right along with the actor who plays him (and quite well at that - i.e. we don't have the painful contrast like one sees between the Dr. No/Goldfinger 007 and the Moonraker 007).

Having read this post, and seen the photos, I think Indy's hat (and all its versions) correctly evolved from the Raiders Indy and into a more mature Indy that we get in LC and KOTCS.

Also, and this is conjecture too, I feel like the Raiders hat was intended to not-so-subtlely tell the audience, all of whom were seeing this character for the first time - "He's an adventurer, a rogue, and he wears a hat!"

Thus cementing in the minds of movie-goers the fedora's eternal association with Indy. Which is probably why most people (no one on this website of course!) think they are still looking at the Raiders hat in all subsequent films, even as SS and HF and costumers paired down the hat each time from its original look.

Its like the Raiders hat was much about establishing Indy's look and image. The subsequent hats, having established the fedora's rightful place in Indy-world, were perhaps smoothed out from the Raiders look, so as to put more emphasis on the character of Indy himself, who also happens to wear a fedora.

These are just some of my thoughts, and I welcome all others. Happy Wednesday everyone!

AttyOzzy wrote:Its like the Raiders hat was much about establishing Indy's look and image. The subsequent hats, having established the fedora's rightful place in Indy-world, were perhaps smoothed out from the Raiders look, so as to put more emphasis on the character of Indy himself, who also happens to wear a fedora.

"The man with THE HAT is back...." - Last Crusade movie poster.

There was no attempt to downplay the hat in subsequent films. They literally hucked it like snake oil in the marketing campaigns and made it A CHARACTER in Temple (door drop/poignant return of it to him by Short Round) Last Crusade (Fedora giving it to him/him staring at it on his office desk/wind blowing it back to him) and KOTCS (ants almost taking it with them/Mutt almost taking it at the end of the wedding).

Hmmm, IndyFrench, you make many valid points.

I don’t mean to say that the films attempted to hide the hat, per se. Rather, it just seems to me that the non-Raiders hats seem less “in your face,” than does the Raiders. I actually love the Raiders hat, with KOTCS being my favorite - - favorite hat (!) that is !

Thank you for the compliment AttyOzzy.
I find that the ol addage of I wear the hat, the hat does not wear me.

Seeing those photo shop of KOTCS, that just doesn’t look right, and the same for Indy 5

But this a refreshing thread.

Croft

Indiana Croft wrote:Thank you for the compliment AttyOzzy.
I find that the ol addage of I wear the hat, the hat does not wear me.

Seeing those photo shop of KOTCS, that just doesn’t look right, and the same for Indy 5

But this a refreshing thread.

Croft

Of course it doesn't look exactly right - it's a photoshop - but I'm much preferring the Raiders in KOTCS potential over the more generic bash. Plus, attempts were made to get the Raiders hat back for KOTCS, but stonewalled by the filmmakers, which I feel is more in the direction of the whole trademark debacle after Raiders, which compelled them to change a certain percentage of Ford's entire costume so they could get merchandising distinctions. That rationale ALONE for the changes to Ford's costume over the years makes me even MORE staunchly loyal to the Raiders ensemble in its entirety and the unashamed wish it would have been consistent throughout the entire film series.

Also - on a final note - the Indy 5 outfit is shaping up to look like absolute sloppy garbage. I don't even think he's wearing a second belt anymore, and the fact they aren't even attempting to reverse the bag strap so the buckle is on the front, even if they have to keep the bag off his right shoulder due to injury.... SLOPPY and LAZY. It's as if they think, "As long as he's got the hat and the whip, he's Indiana Jones." They don't seem to be caring about the overall final level of visual quality. Plus - what the heck happened to his shirt pleats??? Did they delete those too??? Anyway, back to the hat - forgoing the "barely-bashed" look of the thing, how much red needs to be in that fedora? Is this a Dick Tracy movie with all the costumes in primary colours????? SHEESH!!!!

IndyFrench, it appears that the flashback scenes Indy is wearing his regular shirt with the pleats, and in the later time period, he's wearing more of a generic khaki shirt.

Canyon wrote:IndyFrench, it appears that the flashback scenes Indy is wearing his regular shirt with the pleats, and in the later time period, he's wearing more of a generic khaki shirt.

That makes for a strange decision on their part, given how the rest of the outfit has just deteriorated in terms of attention and detail overall.

IndyFrench wrote:
Also - on a final note - the Indy 5 outfit is shaping up to look like absolute sloppy garbage. I don't even think he's wearing a second belt anymore, and the fact they aren't even attempting to reverse the bag strap so the buckle is on the front, even if they have to keep the bag off his right shoulder due to injury.... SLOPPY and LAZY. It's as if they think, "As long as he's got the hat and the whip, he's Indiana Jones." They don't seem to be caring about the overall final level of visual quality.

Off topic but I have 100% said this exact thing in other threads (don't forget the blatantly unused whip). But I digress.

Well it appears I may be in a minority here. At work I often feel like the little boy, looking at the King naked, wondering why everyone is cheering his ‘new clothes’. But I digress.

Despite liking the LC bash a lot. I would have really liked them to have used the Raiders hat in all the movies. I think it works well. My feeling would be that, like most things, we are creatures of habit. To that end I feel it unlikely that he would change the bash on his hat as he got older. If anything I’d have expected the bash to cycle the other way through the films, KOTCS to Raiders, mainly because of the way he uses the crown / pinch to hold, move, put on \ take off the hat etc.

I was disappointed that the pinch didn’t stay tight in TOD, LC or KOTCS. I was disappointed with the larger yoke in the later jackets, I was really disappointed in the hide choice of KOTCS. I like that its gone back to a bit shorter and less of the KOTCS car coat effect.

I’m a little disappointed the shirt has lost the front vertical reinforcements. It’s reasonable but my own preference.

My Raiders bias is showing

Tibor wrote:I was disappointed that the pinch didn’t stay tight in TOD, LC or KOTCS. I was disappointed with the larger yoke in the later jackets, I was really disappointed in the hide choice of KOTCS. I like that its gone back to a bit shorter and less of the KOTCS car coat effect.

I’m a little disappointed the shirt has lost the front vertical reinforcements. It’s reasonable but my own preference.

My Raiders bias is showing

I 2nd all this…

AttyOzzy wrote: Seeing the Raiders hat on Indy in the Last Crusade pic, in my mind, deprives Indy of the growth in age and experience that we get in LC with his more subdued LC fedora. It seems to me that the LC Indy would have a far less peculiar Raiders hat, and a more stylish or subdued fedora by the time he is jetting off to Florence or adventuring with his Dad. In my mind I can imagine Henry Sr. being critical of the Raiders hat were Indy to have crashed through the window wearing it.

After reading your post, I went back an watched about 2/3rds of LC last night. When the Venice pier scene came up, I tried to imagine the Raiders hat. This may very well be my own circular reasoning, but thinking about the Raiders hat and the particular ways it is deformed, it still strikes me as incongruous.

The hat works for Raiders because it indeed looks like a hat that was dunked in the river and dragged under a truck. But put that well worn hat on suit-Indy and would it not be out of place? What would that beat up hat represent to Elsa, who doesn't have decades of reverence towards the hat as an iconic piece of costuming? When hat wearing was a regular daily practice, wearing a such a beat up hat would signal either that the wearer could not afford a new hat, or that they did not bother to take proper care of their clothing.

I think I have to agree with jlee562; I really like the LC fedora a lot. Whereas the Raiders looks like a hat that’s been through the mill (and it was shaped and aged so it would look like it had been) there’s something more easy going and nonchalant about the LC while still maintaining a distinct shape. I love the SOC fedora, I love the SOC look. But to me it’s a very specific look that may be fine in the desert or on a hiking trail but may look a bit incongruous when wearing a nice tweed suit.