Difference Between Penman and AB Legacy Raiders

Hedji · Post by **Hedji** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:55 pm

Hello all! I'm getting back in the game after several years, and looking at many different Raiders fedoras for everyday wear. I'm not quite hung up on any specific look, and not ready to distress with fuller's earth, but I know I want a Raiders turn.

I think I want it I Beaver.

That said, can anyone explain how the Penman Raiders here: http://www.penmanhats.com/indy-s-closet.html

differs from the Adventurebilt Legacy here: http://www.penmanhats.com/adventurebilt ... ction.html

Different block, I assume. Is one more accurate, or preferable? Looks like the AB is only in Rabbit, correct?

Any other differences worth understanding?

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:17 pm

From my understanding the ABL is only in rabbit, but they type of rabbit is floppier. They use slightly different blocks. The ABL is made using the materials that Steve Delk used back in the day. The ABL comes with some more goodies such as a paper signed by John. John says that the ABL is more accurate, but I don’t think you would be disappointed if you got the normal one in beaver.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:40 pm

Well, there was some minor controversy wherein certain parties were insinuating that the current HJs were somehow "recast" from Steve's blocks...that never really made a whole lot of sense to me, as Steve would have been attempting to replicate the original block himself. Point being, there is apparently a high degree of similarity between the ABL and the current HJ, for whatever that is worth.

Forrest For the Trees · Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:46 pm

You should send John an email and see if he would do ABL in Beaver. Maybe/maybe not. But worth an inquiry.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:54 pm

I may be misremembering but I think Steve’s beaver Raiders is what he used for KOTCS, so if you got an ABL Raider in beaver it may be closer to the price of his ABL CS.

tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:04 pm

I emailed John about this recently. I got back a short reply, which said. "The ABL is a Liechtenstein weight rabbit felt and the stitching to the ribbon mimics Richards sewing machine stitch as well."

I have no idea what Liechtenstein weight is, but after searching these forums I found that back in the day when the ABL Raiders was first coming out John said that it is a floppier, lighter, rabbit felt as compared to the Penman Raiders rabbit. The ABL also has a more screen accurate stitching on the ribbon, as the Penman Raiders is a more refined hat, rather than just going for accuracy.

So if you want a Raiders style hat from John in Beaver, the Penman is the only option. If you want it in rabbit, you get the two options of felts by choosing the lighter ABL or the heavier Penman Raiders.

He also emailed me that he no longer allows the option of getting the Raiders hat without the turn. So I have decided to go with the ABL Indy 4, which does come in Beaver, as my first hat.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:51 pm

Are you sure he said he won’t make hats without the turn? That seems a little outrageous to me since all he would have to do is pinch it at a different angle.

tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:57 pm

IJJTM wrote:Are you sure he said he won’t make hats without the turn? That seems a little outrageous to me since all he would have to do is pinch it at a different angle.

Yes, I’m sure. Just asked him last month. He replied that he no longer offers the raiders without the turn due to having too many hats returned.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:17 pm

Like people returned their Raiders hat after they were unsatisfied without a turn?

tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:49 pm

IJJTM wrote:Like people returned their Raiders hat after they were unsatisfied without a turn?

Yeah, that is what he said. His communications are pretty brief, that entire email said "I no longer do the Raiders without the turn. To many returns. Maybe Indy 4 hat would be for you."

I can't imagine many people returning the hat entirely, but possibly sending it back to be re-bashed. Who knows?

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:07 pm

I dunno, either way it’s an extra haste for him, and thanks for further explaining that.

Forrest For the Trees · Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:18 pm

Well, I would order open-crown and shape it myself, personally. Anyway, that makes sense on the ABL Raiders, as it is a pretty specific hat.

Hedji · Post by **Hedji** » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:28 pm

Thanks for the replies to my original post.

I may ask if he would do the ABL in beaver.

I keep thinking I’d like to own 2 fedoras, one being a HJ because of the association and the good reputation they’ve been building. Their upcoming Anniversary Fedora in rabbit makes sense to me.

I’d also like to own a fedora that is made of beaver, and John’s quality is pretty much guaranteed.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:35 pm

I’m in the same boat as you, I’m ordering an ABL Skull from John since it is pretty much a clone of the movie one and it should probably last a lifetime. Also, when the world’s situation ends my family is planning a European vacation and while there I hope to get an HJ. But that’s just me.

Illinois_Jones · Post by **Illinois_Jones** » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:22 pm

Forrest For the Trees wrote: Well, I would order open-crown and shape it myself, personally. Anyway, that makes sense on the ABL Raiders, as it is a pretty specific hat.

John doesn't send out open crown hats anymore, either. I wish he did, but he doesn't. The thing I don't get it why people don't just hit it with some steam and reshape it. It's not like the felt can't take it.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:30 pm

@Illinois some people aren't aware of how felt hats work, or they are not too confident in themselves to reshape it.

Hedji · Post by **Hedji** » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:12 pm

Well, I got my answer. The ABL Raiders is only made in rabbit.

Beaver is only used for the KOTCS or the Penman Raider.

So the question is, how does the Penman Raider compare to the ABL Raiders, if material is disregarded?

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:56 pm

Material and price aside from my understanding the ABL block is more accurate, and the stitching is more like you would find on a Richard Swales hat. I think you would be pretty happy either way. The beaver will last longer, but the ABL rabbit is a tad bit more accurate to the actual prop, not to say the beaver is inaccurate at all.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:57 pm

You will find folks on both sides of the "which block is more accurate" debate. My vote goes to the ABL. There are some Penman Raiders hats that strike me as having exaggerated lines. But I never cared for the SOC look anyways, so take my $.02 with a grain of salt.

Ridgerunner58 · Post by **Ridgerunner58** » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:23 am

Pretty sure John will not do an ABL in beaver felt. I own 14 or 15 Penman’s and 2 ABLs. I ordered a Portuguese beaver raiders last year and tried, without success, to get him to use an ABL liner. Admittedly I didn’t ask him to also use his ABL block, but my sense is the answer would have been the same.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:50 am

Woah, that sounds like a hefty collection. How would you say all of the materials compare between to each other? Also are both of your ABLs Raiders?

drftfan · Post by **drftfan** » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:55 am

I am sorry but as of now I am happy I didn't go with a Penman. I rarely deny my customers requests when modifying the items I make. I also had reached out inquiring about an everyman and one of his "premade" hats on his website. Neither were available but my issue is his premade page shows it was last updated 02/05/2020. http://www.penmanhats.com/pre-made-penman-hats.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; If a business owner can't bother to update a webpages stock (even after responding it wasn't in stock) then what other details are being missed or overlooked?
I run a Facebook group page with over 5000 members at this point. I see good and bad vendors all the time. Maybe I am completely off base here but I cannot image that Indy style hats are in great demand these days. Has he simply lost interest? Because I don't understand the appeal of waiting 7 months or longer for a hat to be made from a maker that isn't willing to make it the way you want

If they are the maker for you then that is great. This isn't a post to discourage anyone from making a purchase. It is just my own opinion about what I have seen so far.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:06 pm

I understand your frustrations, but John is in a different position compared to HJ. John is a one man show that has had to do everything for his business practically by himself for about 13 years. I don’t know his whole situation, but I’m guessing the Everyman hats are out of stock due to the factory shutting down. He takes a while when it comes to updating his website, and I agree that he should have taken the sold hats off of that page, but he’s probably preoccupied with other concerns. As for not modifying the hats to people’s specifications I think that is because he wants to make the best product he can with his high standards. For example, I once asked him if he had ever been asked to make a Freddy Krueger hat and his response was “Yes and glad I turned it down”. On the other hand, HJ receives less orders, and they have different standards compared to John. I’m sorry if any of this came off as rude, or a dig at HJ, that was not my intent. I just wanted to portray John’s side of it viewed from an observer of his work.

drftfan · Post by **drftfan** » Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:38 pm

tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:09 pm

Ridgerunner58 wrote:Pretty sure John will not do an ABL in beaver felt. I own 14 or 15 Penman’s and 2 ABLs. I ordered a Portuguese beaver raiders last year and tried, without success, to get him to use an ABL liner. Admittedly I didn’t ask him to also use his ABL block, but my sense is the answer would have been the same.

Can I ask your thoughts on how the Portuguese beaver compares to the regular? I really am aiming to get one good durable hat to take with me on my camping and traveling adventures. I don't think I will be buying multiple hats, so I am trying to get one good one to last a lifetime. From my understanding the Portuguese beaver is lighter and floppier to imitate the feel of the rabbit felt seen on screen. Is that accurate, and do you feel the Portuguese would last as long as the standard Beaver?

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:25 pm

A lighter and floppier felt is not necessarily prone to more wear. While I can't personally comment towards Penman specifically, as a general preference, I would pick the FEPSA (Portuguese) beaver over the standard beaver felt. In my experience, the FEPSA felts are more uniformly dense.

Ridgerunner58 · Post by **Ridgerunner58** » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:11 am

tubasthebest wrote:
Ridgerunner58 wrote:Pretty sure John will not do an ABL in beaver felt. I own 14 or 15 Penman’s and 2 ABLs. I ordered a Portuguese beaver raiders last year and tried, without success, to get him to use an ABL liner. Admittedly I didn’t ask him to also use his ABL block, but my sense is the answer would have been the same.
Can I ask your thoughts on how the Portuguese beaver compares to the regular? I really am aiming to get one good durable hat to take with me on my camping and traveling adventures. I don't think I will be buying multiple hats, so I am trying to get one good one to last a lifetime. From my understanding the Portuguese beaver is lighter and floppier to imitate the feel of the rabbit felt seen on screen. Is that accurate, and do you feel the Portuguese would last as long as the standard Beaver?

There is definitely a difference. The density of both is great, but I agree that the Portuguese felt is more uniformly dense. It’s also slightly thinner, but interestingly it holds its original shape better. The regular beaver felt is kind of moldable. If you deform the brim it stays put. The Portuguese felt springs back. I think from a durability standpoint either will hold up. My oldest, number 198, has been though the wringer and other than being slightly faded, looks like new. All in all though, if I was going to only have one, I’d spend the extra. You will not regret it if you do.

tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:42 am

Thank you for the breakdown. I really appreciate it!

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:10 pm

My Penman ABL Raiders has broken in nicely, it's rabbit and I received on or about November 2014.
Still a go to hat, rain in the forecast, I grab one of my beaver Fedora's.

New

This last summer.

Croft

Indiana_Nate · Post by **Indiana_Nate** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:33 pm

I ordered an ABL Crystal Skull from John late last May, and it will be my first beaver felt and first handmade Penman. I will be very curious as to how it will compare with my HJs. I have been on many adventures with my HJ Raiders and it has held up beautifully. My ABL was due last November but has encountered some unforeseen delays.

tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:26 pm

Wow, that is quite the delay! Do you know what caused it and do you have an updated estimate of when it will be done?

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:47 pm

Indiana_Nate wrote:I ordered an ABL Crystal Skull from John late last May, and it will be my first beaver felt and first handmade Penman. I will be very curious as to how it will compare with my HJs. I have been on many adventures with my HJ Raiders and it has held up beautifully. My ABL was due last November but has encountered some unforeseen delays.

Nate, you mentioning this is making me think even more that John was signed to do the Indy 5 hats, or as I've said before, I could just be overthinking everything.

Indiana_Nate · Post by **Indiana_Nate** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:25 pm

IJJTM wrote:
Indiana_Nate wrote:I ordered an ABL Crystal Skull from John late last May, and it will be my first beaver felt and first handmade Penman. I will be very curious as to how it will compare with my HJs. I have been on many adventures with my HJ Raiders and it has held up beautifully. My ABL was due last November but has encountered some unforeseen delays.
Nate, you mentioning this is making me think even more that John was signed to do the Indy 5 hats, or as I've said before, I could just be overthinking everything.

I reached out to John in December after not having heard anything since September when he emailed me to reconfirm my size. It took a week and 2 separate emails, but the response I received said that it would take an additional 2-3 months because of supply issues due to the pandemic, and John taking the month of December off after losing several friends to COVID. I’ve also noticed that he’s been pretty silent on social media for the last few months. I think it’s certainly possible he’s been signed to Indy 5, but his response threw me off a bit.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:14 pm

Yeah, that seems a bit more likely, I remember that he took a while to answer my emails once December rolled around. Thank you for the concise response Nate.

Indiana_Nate · Post by **Indiana_Nate** » Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:03 am

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:02 pm

Was nice out to day so the Misses and I went to the beach for some fresh air.
She took couple pictures of me in my Penman ABL SoC

Better lighting than my pictures above, just thought I'd share.

Croft

tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:12 pm

Fantastic picture!

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:31 pm

Very nice Croft.

Indiana_Nate · Post by **Indiana_Nate** » Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:50 pm

Great pic Croft! Hat looks awesome. The color is fantastic.

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:06 pm

Thanks, yes it’s sorta faded i guess, but it’s a nice Raiders shade.

John does awesome work, would love to see him get the gig for the next Indy.

Croft

jgino · Post by **jgino** » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:46 am

Fantastic!!!