Club Obi Wan

My USW vintage adventure jacket has similar leather but pattern is off.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

I'd say BK but I believe they're out of the cowhide for that jacket at the moment. S&J does one, I've heard, but I don't think I've ever seen one personally. There's of course Wested's standard LC which is effectively a CS but you'd have to compromise on screen accuracy. So without Nowak anymore, the best bet would probably be BK but right now you'd be sacrificing some screen accuracy with the leather. Or hit up Diego.

Illinois_Jones wrote:I'd say BK but I believe they're out of the cowhide for that jacket at the moment. S&J does one, I've heard, but I don't think I've ever seen one personally. There's of course Wested's standard LC which is effectively a CS but you'd have to compromise on screen accuracy. So without Nowak anymore, the best bet would probably be BK but right now you'd be sacrificing some screen accuracy with the leather. Or hit up Diego.

Thanks for your input, it's pretty much what's in my mind, bk is based on TN jacket but leather not SA, I don't see any photo of SJ but remembered they said the CS jacket receive very low demand by people so they stop making the jacket.

Yeah the BK would be the way to go, even if you have to change leather. I like their goat, though it won't get that pre-distressed look characteristic of the CS. Otherwise see if they restock the cowhide eventually. But I do know the pandemic is causing major supply issues.

I’ve never really been able to tell, but what is the difference between the LC and KOTCS jackets minus the coloration?

IJJTM wrote:I’ve never really been able to tell, but what is the difference between the LC and KOTCS jackets minus the coloration?

For me, the most obvious differences are the pocket shapes - long, narrow, with V-shaped flaps on the CS. And it has triple seams on shoulders. On Ford, to my eye, the CS version looks really over-sized, too long in the sleeves and possibly even wider in the shoulders than the Raiders jacket.

Magnoli does a good CS jacket.

Hammerklavier wrote:

Illinois_Jones wrote:I'd say BK but I believe they're out of the cowhide for that jacket at the moment. S&J does one, I've heard, but I don't think I've ever seen one personally. There's of course Wested's standard LC which is effectively a CS but you'd have to compromise on screen accuracy. So without Nowak anymore, the best bet would probably be BK but right now you'd be sacrificing some screen accuracy with the leather. Or hit up Diego.

Thanks for your input, it's pretty much what's in my mind, bk is based on TN jacket but leather not SA, I don't see any photo of SJ but remembered they said the CS jacket receive very low demand by people so they stop making the jacket.

That's correct.
No enough demand to get a stock on that particular leather.

Of course, we have the correct and accurate pattern, details, etc.
Roberto, my partner, have a TN CS jacket.
So, we've replicate it pretty well.

If accurate leather is not a deal breaker, feel to send us an email.

Regards.-

IJJTM wrote:I’ve never really been able to tell, but what is the difference between the LC and KOTCS jackets minus the coloration?

Besides some of the design quirks of the LC like CM said, which were often a result of rushed or careless construction, the CS jacket is more standardized. It's oversized compared to the other jackets, but AFAIK all the CS jackets Nowak made were essentially the same. Much like the beaver fedora, the CS jacket was probably the best-made and most deliberate of the lot. And the other consideration is of course the leather. Being cow it will behave differently from the lamb and could help explain some of the difference in fit -- I don't care what some people might say, in my experience identical jackets in different skins fit differently. Such is gravity. And another consideration with regard to fit in the design would be Ford's body changing as he went from 40-something to 60-something. Just as I attribute *some* of the fit/design difference between Raiders and LC to Ford transitioning to middle age, I don't think the 20-year difference between LC and CS can be ignored in that regard.

Illinois_Jones wrote:

IJJTM wrote:I’ve never really been able to tell, but what is the difference between the LC and KOTCS jackets minus the coloration?

Besides some of the design quirks of the LC like CM said, which were often a result of rushed or careless construction, the CS jacket is more standardized. It's oversized compared to the other jackets, but AFAIK all the CS jackets Nowak made were essentially the same. Much like the beaver fedora, the CS jacket was probably the best-made and most deliberate of the lot. And the other consideration is of course the leather. Being cow it will behave differently from the lamb and could help explain some of the difference in fit -- I don't care what some people might say, in my experience identical jackets in different skins fit differently. Such is gravity. And another consideration with regard to fit in the design would be Ford's body changing as he went from 40-something to 60-something. Just as I attribute *some* of the fit/design difference between Raiders and LC to Ford transitioning to middle age, I don't think the 20-year difference between LC and CS can be ignored in that regard.

very well said! I think when you grow older, the loose fit is better looking that neat, snug fit. I like CS jacket a lot, cowhide is the right one for Indy jacket. I often think why remakers have to stick with Lamb when cowhide can resemble the looking of LC jacket much easier.

Hammerklavier wrote:

Illinois_Jones wrote:

IJJTM wrote:I’ve never really been able to tell, but what is the difference between the LC and KOTCS jackets minus the coloration?

Besides some of the design quirks of the LC like CM said, which were often a result of rushed or careless construction, the CS jacket is more standardized. It's oversized compared to the other jackets, but AFAIK all the CS jackets Nowak made were essentially the same. Much like the beaver fedora, the CS jacket was probably the best-made and most deliberate of the lot. And the other consideration is of course the leather. Being cow it will behave differently from the lamb and could help explain some of the difference in fit -- I don't care what some people might say, in my experience identical jackets in different skins fit differently. Such is gravity. And another consideration with regard to fit in the design would be Ford's body changing as he went from 40-something to 60-something. Just as I attribute *some* of the fit/design difference between Raiders and LC to Ford transitioning to middle age, I don't think the 20-year difference between LC and CS can be ignored in that regard.

very well said! I think when you grow older, the loose fit is better looking that neat, snug fit. I like CS jacket a lot, cowhide is the right one for Indy jacket. I often think why remakers have to stick with Lamb when cowhide can resemble the looking of LC jacket much easier.

Most likely vendors choose lamb for the LC jacket since many customers demand for the "screen accurate" jacket.
But if the cow can resemble how the LC looks then that's more than enough, definitely a tougher jacket than lamb. Lamb which isn't as strong as cow is still a good choice as well, especially for those who live in warmer climates.

There will be those who'll pick a practical jacket and there will be those who'll go for screen accuracy.

Illinois_Jones wrote:

IJJTM wrote:I’ve never really been able to tell, but what is the difference between the LC and KOTCS jackets minus the coloration?

Besides some of the design quirks of the LC like CM said, which were often a result of rushed or careless construction, the CS jacket is more standardized. It's oversized compared to the other jackets, but AFAIK all the CS jackets Nowak made were essentially the same. Much like the beaver fedora, the CS jacket was probably the best-made and most deliberate of the lot. And the other consideration is of course the leather. Being cow it will behave differently from the lamb and could help explain some of the difference in fit -- I don't care what some people might say, in my experience identical jackets in different skins fit differently. Such is gravity. And another consideration with regard to fit in the design would be Ford's body changing as he went from 40-something to 60-something. Just as I attribute *some* of the fit/design difference between Raiders and LC to Ford transitioning to middle age, I don't think the 20-year difference between LC and CS can be ignored in that regard.

Agree on the hide and build quality and Ford's aging physicality. The TN's seemed to be really well made. To my eye the over-sized measurements of the jacket made Ford's body look shrunken and even older, like he had lost muscle mass.

The Raiders was over-sized too, but on a younger man, this didn't look like he was wasting. A loose fit would have been fine. But baggy is not a loose fit.

What many forget, or aren't aware of, is that both the fedora AND the jacket were spec'd to be as water resistant as possible by Bernie Pollack.

This came directly to me from Steve Delk as he was working with Bernie on the hat, and coordinating with Tony Nowak in development of those items.

All they were told during development was there was going to be a LOT of water involved during production, and the materials used had to be able to 'bounce back' as quickly as possible from one take to the next.

This is the reason Steve went exclusively with beaver felt, and Tony spec'd the cowhide he used.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:What many forget, or aren't aware of, is that both the fedora AND the jacket were spec'd to be as water resistant as possible by Bernie Pollack.

This came directly to me from Steve Delk as he was working with Bernie on the hat, and coordinating with Tony Nowak in development of those items.

All they were told during development was there was going to be a LOT of water involved during production, and the materials used had to be able to 'bounce back' as quickly as possible from one take to the next.

This is the reason Steve went exclusively with beaver felt, and Tony spec'd the cowhide he used.

Regards! Michaelson

I remember that well - first Indy costume made out of proper and robust materials all around. But to me it didn't look any better on film than the Raiders costume. Maybe Bernie made the jacket so baggy to accommodate shrinkage from all that water.

I always thought it was function over form. At his age, he wanted to be comfortable,

Regards! M

Michaelson wrote:What many forget, or aren't aware of, is that both the fedora AND the jacket were spec'd to be as water resistant as possible by Bernie Pollack.

This came directly to me from Steve Delk as he was working with Bernie on the hat, and coordinating with Tony Nowak in development of those items.

All they were told during development was there was going to be a LOT of water involved during production, and the materials used had to be able to 'bounce back' as quickly as possible from one take to the next.

This is the reason Steve went exclusively with beaver felt, and Tony spec'd the cowhide he used.

Regards! Michaelson

In that case, why just use horsehide and saves trouble

No clue. That or goatskin, but Tony went with cowhide.

Regards! M

That is interesting he went with cow given the wet requirement. Personally I think I would have gone with a chrome tanned goat, but maybe Tony didn't like the pebbling or goat's tendency to take on a vinyl look or something. Cow has always seemed to act like a sponge in my experience. Though perhaps it was due to the cow leather's availability and consistency, considering he had to make over 30 of them.

But yeah, regarding the fit, I too never totally liked the frumpy look of the CS jacket. Besides Ford wanting to be more comfortable perhaps, maybe they also wanted him to look more old and worn out so to speak. Like he hadn't really worn it in a while and it no longer fit him like it used to. They did like to emphasize his age.

That said, I also do think the CS jacket is the best "starter" Indy jacket of the screen accurate jackets. It appears to fit a wider range of body types.

Illinois_Jones wrote:That is interesting he went with cow given the wet requirement. Personally I think I would have gone with a chrome tanned goat, but maybe Tony didn't like the pebbling or goat's tendency to take on a vinyl look or something. Cow has always seemed to act like a sponge in my experience. Though perhaps it was due to the cow leather's availability and consistency, considering he had to make over 30 of them.

But yeah, regarding the fit, I too never totally liked the frumpy look of the CS jacket. Besides Ford wanting to be more comfortable perhaps, maybe they also wanted him to look more old and worn out so to speak. Like he hadn't really worn it in a while and it no longer fit him like it used to. They did like to emphasize his age.

That said, I also do think the CS jacket is the best "starter" Indy jacket of the screen accurate jackets. It appears to fit a wider range of body types.

I agree with you mostly but I don't think they wanted Ford to look old or worn out. There are no advantages in having a 64 year-old, pension aged action star look worn. Jones films aren't neorealism. I think Pollack just got some of the costume slightly off and that engendered an unflattering look. It happens.

I always argued that they should have used a bog standard Gibson and Barnes Expo jacket in goat for Indy 4. Buy 30 of them; light distressing; job done. It would certainly have looked far better.

I know G&B was approached. They just didn’t have the turn around time Bernie required.
As much as Dave Marshal would have loved to have done it, I don’t think the G&B owners ever had any interest in getting into the entertainment industry. They see themselves as military and professional outfitters.
The Expedition was a one off project that lasted a while, but was eventually allowed to die.
This has always been one of those ‘what if’ things for me.
Regards! M

I think Bernie also had to cope with what would look good with the “50’s scifi” filters that they used. But I agree, ended up with more of a car coat look than what we saw previously, and it was a shame as Harrison stays fit for these movies and would have looked good in something a bit trimmer. (And go back to wearing the bag strap under the jacket, please).

The jacket he wears in the jungle sequences looks a bit more flexible than the stiff one he starts with in Mexico and the 'not grave robbers' scenes.

CM wrote:

Illinois_Jones wrote:That is interesting he went with cow given the wet requirement. Personally I think I would have gone with a chrome tanned goat, but maybe Tony didn't like the pebbling or goat's tendency to take on a vinyl look or something. Cow has always seemed to act like a sponge in my experience. Though perhaps it was due to the cow leather's availability and consistency, considering he had to make over 30 of them.

But yeah, regarding the fit, I too never totally liked the frumpy look of the CS jacket. Besides Ford wanting to be more comfortable perhaps, maybe they also wanted him to look more old and worn out so to speak. Like he hadn't really worn it in a while and it no longer fit him like it used to. They did like to emphasize his age.

That said, I also do think the CS jacket is the best "starter" Indy jacket of the screen accurate jackets. It appears to fit a wider range of body types.

I agree with you mostly but I don't think they wanted Ford to look old or worn out. There are no advantages in having a 64 year-old, pension aged action star look worn. Jones films aren't neorealism. I think Pollack just got some of the costume slightly off and that engendered an unflattering look. It happens.

I always argued that they should have used a bog standard Gibson and Barnes Expo jacket in goat for Indy 4. Buy 30 of them; light distressing; job done. It would certainly have looked far better.

Well yeah, not that they wanted him to look old and feeble, but they did make a point of emphasizing the passage of time in the movie. He was no longer in his prime. So instead of having a 30-something with an athletic and lean build wearing a Raiders jacket, they opted for something more homely to show the character was closer to 60. Just like I believe some of the choices with the fit of the LC were made to accommodate a man now north of 45 and also possibly some of the choices on the TOD jacket were to augment his heavier workout regimen and build for that movie.

But yeah, I agree that the best choice would have been goat. Something put Tony off using that. Either the qualities intrinsic to goat, or what I believe to be most likely the availability in the quantity he needed. I think 30+ jackets in cow was more doable than 30+ jackets in another skin.

You're reading far too much into imagined motives for the costume. I just watched the KOTCS documentary this morning. Spielberg, Lucas and Ford all believed they'd recreated the classic look from the first three movies, with Lucas saying he felt you probably couldn't tell which was which if you looked at pictures of Ford in the gear from all 4 movies. And Ford says the costume fitted him like a glove and didn't need any alterations, nothing mentioned about wanting a comfy fit.

xmasters wrote:You're reading far too much into imagined motives for the costume. I just watched the KOTCS documentary this morning. Spielberg, Lucas and Ford all believed they'd recreated the classic look from the first three movies, with Lucas saying he felt you probably couldn't tell which was which if you looked at pictures of Ford in the gear from all 4 movies. And Ford says the costume fitted him like a glove and didn't need any alterations, nothing mentioned about wanting a comfy fit.

Yep. That's what I would have thought.

I found their comments interesting after the fact, as they came to US, Indygear, for help in getting details to use so Bernie could recreate the outfit.

Regards! M

Would have thought they’d just look at jackets in the archive, or the LC jacket Harrison kept.

Agreed, and that was the first thing that was suggested. That’s why G&B almost got involved.

Regards! M

No disrespect meant to Tony Nowak, but if G&B had been involved they would probably still be selling their Exhibition.

“Expedition”...

... probably too hard too distress. Their goatskin would hold up truck drag shenanigans.

xmasters wrote:You're reading far too much into imagined motives for the costume. I just watched the KOTCS documentary this morning. Spielberg, Lucas and Ford all believed they'd recreated the classic look from the first three movies, with Lucas saying he felt you probably couldn't tell which was which if you looked at pictures of Ford in the gear from all 4 movies. And Ford says the costume fitted him like a glove and didn't need any alterations, nothing mentioned about wanting a comfy fit.

Sure, except that people lie. People looking to sell a movie based on nostalgia after 20 years away really lie. I live and work in Hollywood -- in marketing, no less -- and BS isn't just a currency in this town, it's the mortar holding the bricks together. Not only that, they often don't remember...because they don't care about that stuff. It's a job, and the costume is not the actor's job, nor is it really the director's. Of course they're going to say "It's all the same. You can't even tell." They're relying on nostalgia to help generate hundreds of millions in revenue. At the same time, they were outfitting a 65 year old man and had to take that into consideration. I don't doubt Ford and Spielberg were not involved in the minutiae of the costume, other than saying "make it look right and make it comfortable" and delegated it to the costume people. That's how it's done, generally, especially something like the Indy costume where it's essentially fixed.

*Someone* made practical and artistic decisions regarding the gear, especially the jacket. Just as decisions were made to use beaver for the fedora for real reasons. Someone decided to make the shoulders huge on the Raiders jacket. All the jackets fit differently, and while some of it you may be able to assign to artistic license if not also ineptitude by the maker, measurements were taken, possibly even a toile made, and instructions given. Filmmaking on this scale is a controlled world. This stuff doesn't just happen.

Illinois_Jones wrote:

xmasters wrote:You're reading far too much into imagined motives for the costume. I just watched the KOTCS documentary this morning. Spielberg, Lucas and Ford all believed they'd recreated the classic look from the first three movies, with Lucas saying he felt you probably couldn't tell which was which if you looked at pictures of Ford in the gear from all 4 movies. And Ford says the costume fitted him like a glove and didn't need any alterations, nothing mentioned about wanting a comfy fit.

Sure, except that people lie. People looking to sell a movie based on nostalgia after 20 years away really lie. I live and work in Hollywood -- in marketing, no less -- and BS isn't just a currency in this town, it's the mortar holding the bricks together. Not only that, they often don't remember...because they don't care about that stuff. It's a job, and the costume is not the actor's job, nor is it really the director's. Of course they're going to say "It's all the same. You can't even tell." They're relying on nostalgia to help generate hundreds of millions in revenue. At the same time, they were outfitting a 65 year old man and had to take that into consideration. I don't doubt Ford and Spielberg were not involved in the minutiae of the costume, other than saying "make it look right and make it comfortable" and delegated it to the costume people. That's how it's done, generally, especially something like the Indy costume where it's essentially fixed.

*Someone* made practical and artistic decisions regarding the gear, especially the jacket. Just as decisions were made to use beaver for the fedora for real reasons. Someone decided to make the shoulders huge on the Raiders jacket. All the jackets fit differently, and while some of it you may be able to assign to artistic license if not also ineptitude by the maker, measurements were taken, possibly even a toile made, and instructions given. Filmmaking on this scale is a controlled world. This stuff doesn't just happen.

You are perfectly right that filmmakers often make aesthetic choices based on back stories and such. Generally these are gleefully shared in making of docos and interviews, even if they are often peppered with BS.

Regarding Indy's jacket, there is no evidence for any claim about the poor sizing being about the character looking worn out and older. Until there is evidence of this, we don't get to present that as a claim. And there are no doubt folks who do not think the jacket is badly sized to begin with and for whom this whole angle is just strange.

And let's face it, the line of reasoning you have put together could justify any flight of fancy about the movie costume. You know why they chose cowhide over horse hide for the jacket? The character of Indy has a great fondness for horses and wouldn't countenance a jacket made of his beloved animal. And on it goes.

The baggy jacket size has a precedent in previous Indy adventures. Not sure how we explain why the sleeves are so darn long. When there is a quote from someone important from Indy 4 that is unambiguously clear about the jacket's intended fit we can perhaps accept this information as accurate. Although maybe that will be BS too.

Illinois_Jones wrote:
They're relying on nostalgia to help generate hundreds of millions in revenue. At the same time, they were outfitting a 65 year old man and had to take that into consideration.

I have no reason to disbelieve they didn't think they'd recreated the classic look, because at the end of the we as fans are nitpicking over details. Ford was in good shape for a 65 year old. Maybe a few lbs heavier, nothing drastic. Perpective needed.

Icidentally, all this CS jacket talk has really got me into wanting to have one, even though it's my least favourite.