Club Obi Wan

It's been said that the true Raiders hat doesn't show up untill Indy swings over the pit. The hat can barely be seen in the dark first shots in the Peruvian cave, but there often seems to be taper and an unremarkable brim. I found these incredible frames in the tarantula sequence, and knew that the ribbon must have been overtightened to bunch the felt like that. After this shot, the hat was turned, the front pinch repositioned, producing (completeing) the true Raiders hat, but the spot where the felt was bunched remained, leaving the channel under the ribbon in the middle of the right front dent. ....The ribbon was mostly overtightened on the top, but also somewhat on the bottom. Look at the angle of the ribs where the ribbon meets the bow on my tightened ribbon. Also notice that the corner of the ribbon pops out under the bow. You can't see the angle of the ribbs on the Raiders ribbon, so I can't say if it was tightened at the front or back of the bow, but it looks like the ribbon is popping out under the bow there too. At the front pinch is where a too tight ribbon would produce bunching. The felt can actually fold here. Then I put the overtightened ribbon on and there's the tarantula hat. Now I roll the front pinch to the left, and that's the turned Raiders hat with the channel under the ribbon in the middle of the front dent. ......Besides getting the channel under the ribbon, without stuffing toilet paper in the swetband to get it, I'm pleased to see the bow angleing inward at the top, creating a flat spot on the side of the crown above it...Raiders features I wasn't getting before. .. I believe the Raiders hat had 3 front pinches. The normal dead center one, the final one 1/2 of an inch to it's left, and one a half inch to it's right- this last one is where the channel under the ribbon formed, and I think you can see the whiteish line that runs up the front dent above it where the pinch used to be ..so the felt was already weakened there, letting the channel form easily. A ribbon mainly overtightened at the top should give you less taper, more backtilt, mushrooming and other Raiders things.

You, sir, are one dedicated individual...I applaud your efforts.

You have attacked the intricate details and inconsistencies of the Raiders fedora with Indy-like tenacity and persistence. Your hat is one of the best Raiders fedoras I've seen, and every detail you add makes it look even better. One of these days you should do a photo comparison of all the scenes in Raiders with pics of your hat, just to show how great it truly looks. I also have to thank you, had it not been for your "Raiders-turn" page, I'd never have thought to turn my own hat (Fed. Deluxe) to get those nifty swoops in the brim. Good stuff...

-GCR

I agree. No one can get closer to the film hat than 3M$. He has the best eye for detail. I would love to see him start on the LC hat, followed by the TOD fedora. That would be interesting. Fedora

I concure, a tightened ribbon is required.

I noticed the dent on the left of the Fedora when I first got my Fed, (as I was attempting to get the perfect bash, I must have rewatched Raiders 20 times) I noticed the dent, especially in the bar scene right after the truck with marion blew up. I put the dent in there by simply wrapping the felt around my thumb while it was slightly damp and it stayed. That's one of my favorite features of the Raiders hat, that and the reverse taper.

Thanks for pointing this out 3K$, I think I'll try it with my Dalex ribbon...

Bravo!

I really can't add anything to what has been said already. Kudos to you.

Regards,

Marc

The ribbon is the first thing to shrink when a hat is used a lot, gets wet or sweats through. Thanks for finally supplying the visual proof. This is something that has 'plagued' me for years,as my ribbons shrank and made my hats WAY to tight, though definitely 'Indy' in appearance, it was extremely uncomfortable for me, but nobody really believed me when I presented this info (as nobody had digital cameras at that time), so I gave up posting about it on Indyfan. It was this problem that gave me the push to obtain a stretcher from PB. I've found that the look can also be obtained by stretching a 7 /14 up to a 7 3/8 long oval. Gives the exact same appearance as the shrunken ribbon, but without squeezing your brains. Posted that too to no avail. Thanks again! Regards. Michaelson

3ThouBucks,
is it important to have the cut-down sweatband to achieve this over-tightened ribbon effect? I have the same hat as you, but am a little reluctant to cut it in half, even though I'm going for the perfect Raiders fed too.
Also, in what places did you make a stitch to hold the ribbon?
Thanks

Okay, JerseyJones is officially out of his league. 3K$ you win !

My problem is a wide head and a high forhead. To do this on my noggin I'd actually need to get a larger hat.

Or remove the foam tape from the sides of my size 61 Akubra and let the sides come in and the front and back kick out ? Will that work ?

Help me 3k$ ! Help me COWFellows !

I've got a vertical forehead myself, but I'm getting good dentage. Pop your dents and see if your hat has begun to taper, maybe you need a reblock. Turning the hat gives you more felt to work with, because the front of the oval on the top of the hat is now over your right eye-, so turn your hat if you haven't already, and I believe the three front pinches are key. Cutting the sweatband to 1 inch will give you an extra 1/16 inch and the missing half inch won't be pushing back. Removing the liner will give you more room. Sand the inside of the crown roomier? I did that recently (the whole inside) just for thinner felt. Shave your head in that spot. --You could always get a larger hat and stuff the front. Sounds like a plan to me, Jersey **I'm back**Couple more things. I never tack my ribbon to my hats. If you have some tacking beween the front of the bow and the channel you're trying to get, you need to cut those tacks. I'd take the ribbon and bow off completely, assemble the ribbon and bow tighter on the top, and a little tighter on the bottom, and put it back on. I just suspect that is how it was done, because of the way the whole crown was affected. Then you can retack later. I'm going to have to start tacking, because the ribbon wants to move up the crown now. ----Consider what's directly on either side of the channel, and try and get these- the puffy back edge of the right front dent, and the puff where the dead center pinch used to be. I'm going to edit the original post and advise that the bottom of the ribbon be tightend a little in addition. -Since the channel extends all the way to the brim, some crown circumfrence is lost way down there, and the ribbon has to be tightened enough on the bottom to retain this loss.

Very impressive as always. I can also tell by looking at that bottom shot of the Raiders hat that the ribbon was NOT 1 1/2" as Swales claimed. Why anyone should continue to believe anything that man said about the hat is beyond me. That ribbon surely must be closer to 1 3/4", lending further credence to the chap who posted here recently claiming to have an actual screen-used Raiders fedora. The felt looks similar too.

I agree with the comment about Mr. Swales. All except the ribbon width. On a 7 1/4 hat, a 1 3/4 ribbon justs alot wider than what I see. Of course, I am cross eyed. regards, Fedora

I've edited the top post to include tightening the ribbon a little at the bottom. The channel must be there right down to the brim. You can see it's creasing the brim in these shots. If Ford wasn't in the unusual habbit front pinching way down into the ribbon, there probably wouldn't have been a "Lever" for the ribbon to push on and cause the bunching in the tarantula hat. If the hat didn't have a short sweatband, that didn't hinder deep pinching, the lever might not be there either. Without 3 front pinches it might not of happened. I've changed the title of my Raiders Turn page to "Raiders Turn, Ribbon Tightening and Sweatband Trimming". Here's a frame from the film when Forrestal shows up. I'll wildly speculate the hat is turned here, but the ribbon untightened- the channel isn't there. The bump in the right dent I'm guessing is the third front pinch where the channel eventually is, popping back out for some reason.? who knows...

Langpuss wrote:Maybe they tried to make Ford's hat tighter so it'd stay on better - their efforts producing the features we love so well. Just an idea.

I agree. I guess they got tired of him stapeling his hat to his head.

I was thinking that you can see HF putting on his own hat and also really, really tightening the front pinch. I don;t think the ribbon HAD to be overtightened to get that channel in the front? I believe this may have been achieved by HF putting the squeeze on that front pinch. If you grab the front of the hat with two fingers at the spots on either side of the front pinch and squeeze hard, you'll get just that type of a reaction out of the felt. Channel and all. If he did this repeatedly which I think he did, it wouldn't be long before the hat remained like that. You can see in other parts of the film (truck chase especially) that it was simply squeezed tightly. In those scenes, the ribbon is held tightly against the felt and there looks like the ribbon conforms to the channel instead of riding over it.

This is new, so it's anyone's guess, so try your idea and see what happens. I'm guessing that the forces involved are pretty strong, but Ford's head was so slanted, maybe it allows for your theory. I have a new theory - Look how the whole front of the brim seemingly bunches. Maybe all the tightening was concentrated in the front part of the hat between the front of the bow and that big white stitch behind the channel?

Many of the different bunches on the brim can happen when a hat body shrinks and this shrinkage can distort the brim just like you see. You get the same thing when you reblock somtimes, usually when you are sizing up or down a hat. You have to iron these out. Although, going by how that block looks in the pic above, the hat has not shrunk in the crown. Crown shrinkage most always occurs at the top of the hat first(where it used to be a cone). Fedora

Well, the hat sure doesn't look like when it was new. Michaelson must be right about sweat shrinking the ribbon and probably the felt under it, which should produce bunching in the brim, but it looks to me like those 3 bunches might be forming a big "V" as if directed by a force. ... The channel under the ribbon was there when the hat was new and fresh- the hat didn't even have backtilt when Indy says "That's what scares me"....So after all that shrinkage in the ribbon area--Why hasn't the channel just gone away? --Well, I said above that I was getting good 'dentage", but mine went away quick. My vertical forehead erased it. So I've ------------Sewn a pleat into the felt- Maybe when the sweatband on Indy's hat was sewn in something happened? Or maybe they put one in on purpose like I did?... Here's the hat with the pleat, and an even tighter ribbon. I wasn't trying to get this, but I just started noticeing...my top dent is now deeper, well it was touching the top of my head before, so the bumps are taller, I guess, or it just has steeper sides or something.

The thing is, as accurate as this hat is, its getting way too complicated to try to attempt yourself. I have never even changed a ribbon before, nevermind all the tinkering you have been doing. Its a mighty fine job you have been doing there but you are gonna have to start running nigh courses in teaching it to people!

Ken

I said I thougt the hat used to be front pinched where the channel is. That's the same turn the hat ended up with, just on the other side of dead center. Maybe....they put the pleat in at that time. I repinched my hat over where I put the pleat, and I can see that there'd be almost no evidence of it once the ribbon was on! Then maybe they tightened the ribbon, because the circumfrence of the crown was now smaller. ..........Whether or not this ever happened, this is a cool way to make a loose hat tighter. Instead of stuffing something in the sweatband, this actually recduces the circumfrence of the crown!....Maybe the Raiders hat has two of these......you know that "front pinch" under the ribbon that's always there?