Club Obi Wan

Seems like an odd question, I know, but it recently dawned on me that I have no idea what color Indy's fedora actually is. Brown, sure. But is it sable? Is it chocolate? Is it consistent throughout the movies? Or does each movie have a distinctly different shade of brown?

Take for example current-production Herbert Johnson vs 2008-ish Adventurebilt. My KotCS AB is clearly a different shade than my HJ. All my ABs have a reddish undertone, whereas the HJ Raiders has more of a light copper one. I know that HJ also stocks at least two shades of brown for their Indy range, so this really made me curious.

Enquiring minds must know!

Hasn't the problem of determining a "true" Indy hat color been that even within a single movie, the hats look different from scene to scene (or even shots within a scene) due to lighting and how the film was processed in post-production?

Is it fair to say that the hats within a single film were probably color-consistent (since they came from the same supplier at the same time), but that hats used in one film didn't necessarily color-match those in the other films made years apart?

Did that beat-up original Raiders hat which fetched something like $475,000 in an auction a couple of years ago shed any light on the "true" color mystery? Or was it old enough that it may no longer have represented what the color looked like back in 1980-81?

Maybe the most definitive answer might come from publicity stills shot in natural outdoor light, which may have been less likely to be tweaked in processing than the actual film footage, or altered by indoor set lighting.(Of course, even "natural" light at outdoor locations might be boosted by reflectors out of camera range...)

What do the experts say?

'Back in the day' Richard Swales of HJ told us the original Poets were 'sable' color which is/was a VERY dark brown. Of course the color looked different in lighting set ups, faux distressing, and the fact the rabbit fur felt faded in the sun from long hours of use.

Regards! Michaelson

Yeah that's a really good question but the one thing I've learned is you can get the exact same color hat, jacket, etc and it can all look different due to what's been mentioned above. and in this day and age with all the color correcting people do, look out. You may never know.

I've known people over at the RPF that once they have an "original" piece it looks way more costumey than it did on camera due to all the movie affects, lighting, etc, etc. Sometimes you want the piece altered to look like your favorite scene and not what it actually looks like in real life.

It's like this quote below about Han Solo's Bespin jacket:

As costume designer John Mollo explains, the jacket is deliberately a blue-grey color because dark blues tend to appear black on film, and for that reason, a garment intended to read as blue needs to be made in a lighter color.

So because of that we have to have a jacket made in dark blue to make it look like the blue-grey of the original.

backstagejack wrote:I've known people over at the RPF that once they have an "original" piece it looks way more costumey than it did on camera due to all the movie affects, lighting, etc, etc. Sometimes you want the piece altered to look like your favorite scene and not what it actually looks like in real life.

I've shared this before, but I have a friend who has a screen used/worn uniform from a Star Trek movie and he has had many conversations at cons with other fans who pointed out his uniform was "pretty good, but not quite screen accurate."

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Michaelson wrote:'Back in the day' Richard Swales of HJ told us the original Poets were 'sable' color which is/was a VERY dark brown. Of course the color looked different in lighting set ups, faux distressing, and the fact the rabbit fur felt faded in the sun from long hours of use.

Regards! Michaelson

Well, I can't add anymore to the discussion but tell you what the creator of the original hat told me back in the late 80's it started out being before the abuse. by the prop masters and lighting crews got finished with it.

Regards! M

Seeing the Indy Fedora's at the Archives and in other places around Lucasfilm, the thing that always surprised me was how dark they were. There is no question that older - used costume - Fedora's ended up sun-bleached but still the result was darker than I had expected.

If you look at this pic I took, it's easy to see how sunlight effects the colour.
This screen-used Skull fedora is the dark sable colour mentioned by Michaelson but the distressing and the sunlight make it look far lighter than it actually is.



Regards,
MARK

KramStaar wrote:Seeing the Indy Fedora's at the Archives and in other places around Lucasfilm, the thing that always surprised me was how dark they were. There is no question that older - used costume - Fedora's ended up sun-bleached but still the result was darker than I had expected.
.......
This screen-used Skull fedora is the dark sable colour mentioned by Michaelson but the distressing and the sunlight make it look far lighter than it actually is.


Regards,
MARK

It's not surprising at all to me that what you and Michaelson say is spot on (for many reasons). It just makes sense that the hats were darker in color than anyone thinks. That's just how the being heavily used and distressed game goes in movies.

I feel anyone searching for THE Indy color just needs to realize they should get what they feel fits best. Cause depending on the scene, the lighting and how or when the hat was distressed it can change all the time. I know in TOD it's almost painfully obvious at times when he's wearing an entirely different hat than when he was in the next scene. Mostly due to taper not color. But really same difference.

Don't even get me started on YIJC and it's magic alternating hats.

The hat is brown! Get over it!

The main thing that folks keep forgetting, aside from manual distressing etc... is that ALL films are color graded.
Whether is was done via film stock used, filters, or computer.

A number of us in the film industry have said this countless times.
It affects how everything, including jacket, pants, shir, shoes ... are going to look on screen.

And now with digital film making, it's even more so relevant.
Without a white balanced picture of the original product, you're never going to know exactly what the actual color was.

I should pull up some ungraded film footage and show comparisons to graded and final release.

Dalexs

Dalexs wrote:The hat is brown! Get over it!
Dalexs

You sure it wasn’t grey?

Regards ! M

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

It varies a little. Some say it looks lighter on Blu-Ray and insist that is the correct color. Myself, I think it looks best if the hat and the jacket are similarly colored. But I'm probably in the oddball minority. I think most vendors tend to make the jacket too dark these days (whereas they used to make it slightly too light) and hats too light today. -Although there are some possible combination exceptions. I realize the Raiders jacket is the darkest, but still don't think there should be a huge disparity between the lightness of the hat and darkness of the jacket, even there. Ideally the jacket should be dark brown (not just short of black) and the hat will be slightly lighter or similar darkness with a slightly different shade of dark brown. Keep in mind hats will fade in the sun more than a jacket ever will.

Thanks for the answers, everyone! To somewhat answer my own question, I suppose HJ just stocks a variety of brown felts to let customers choose which color is more Indy to them! Personally, it never occurred to me to use what I saw on screen as a measuring stick for color since my wife is a video producer for a local news station (I never hear the end of this stuff), but I thought that perhaps there were significant color differences between films to warrant such drastic felt color differences... well, drastic in my eyes.

By the way, Kramstaar, that's a fascinating glimpse of a screen used hat! I always wondered what the skull props looked like after filming wrapped! So glad to see it still has the fake cobwebs on it!

And Ford's jacket from the ESB was charcoal gray! Hard to believe, but true!

Castor Dioscuri wrote:By the way, Kramstaar, that's a fascinating glimpse of a screen used hat! I always wondered what the skull props looked like after filming wrapped! So glad to see it still has the fake cobwebs on it!

There is a brand new Fedora and new whip in the archives as well - neither of which have ever been used.
The Fedora is a perfect Sable colour so at least for Skull, its easy to see what the original hat looked like.

All the best,
MARK

The CBS Sunday Night Movie airing of "Last Crusade" prompted me to have my own DVD showing this weekend. And this hat color thread had me looking at the fedora even more closely.

Does anybody know if the Venice street fedora is in fact darker than the "work" hat Indy wears for the rest of the movie? It looks like a deeper, richer brown. Or, once again, is this simply an issue of scene lighting?

Come to think of it, the hat Indy wears when he escapes out his college office window and at his visit with Donovan also looks like it's the same as the Venice hat. Slightly darker than the action-adventure hat.

Or...just my imagination?

Dalexs wrote:The hat is brown! Get over it!

The main thing that folks keep forgetting, aside from manual distressing etc... is that ALL films are color graded.
Whether is was done via film stock used, filters, or computer.

A number of us in the film industry have said this countless times.
It affects how everything, including jacket, pants, shir, shoes ... are going to look on screen.

And now with digital film making, it's even more so relevant.
Without a white balanced picture of the original product, you're never going to know exactly what the actual color was.

I should pull up some ungraded film footage and show comparisons to graded and final release.

Dalexs

Actually, showing comparisons between film as shot and as processed would be very informative.

I remember when watching DVD extras from LONGMIRE's first or second season, they showed raw footage as it came out of the camera, and then how it looked in the final version. I never realized how much of a difference there is, how much can be altered to make a film image more dramatic and evocative.

Probably the main reason why well-produced movies and TV look like "hyper-reality" and what we see in the REAL real world never looks that impressive by comparison.

With the age of digital cameras, Color grading has become a huge tool/job in the industry.
Its to a point where its even part of the curriculum for my sons film program in college.

I remember seeing a thing a while ago about Birdman, and how they shot most of the night scenes during the day and simply color graded the raw footage
to match what was needed.

This is a good primer on on how Color Grading with LUTs filtering basically works and what can be done with it.



Dalexs

KramStaar wrote:

Castor Dioscuri wrote:By the way, Kramstaar, that's a fascinating glimpse of a screen used hat! I always wondered what the skull props looked like after filming wrapped! So glad to see it still has the fake cobwebs on it!

There is a brand new Fedora and new whip in the archives as well - neither of which have ever been used.
The Fedora is a perfect Sable colour so at least for Skull, its easy to see what the original hat looked like.

All the best,
MARK

That’s so interesting, my imagination is running. Thanks for the info!

Anyone here who has a hat from Steve Delk from 2007/8 time period can check this as well since Steve used the exact felt as used in the film for all his orders, right?

And Steve made available trimmed pieces from the production made hats that would show the felt color.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Have a brand new unworn one in my closet ‘as we speak’!

Regards! M

Indy Magnoli wrote:Anyone here who has a hat from Steve Delk from 2007/8 time period can check this as well since Steve used the exact felt as used in the film for all his orders, right?

Right.




Pretty dark compared to Federation III:

Yup, told ya'... it's brown!

No, it's cinnamon

(the actual name of the color felt used by HJ for the hat in Raiders ;-) )

Dalexs wrote:Yup, told ya'... it's brown!

Kinda shocked it is darker than the Akubra Federation.

So what's the opinion around here... match what we see on screen or match what was in reality on set?

Forrest For the Trees wrote:

Dalexs wrote:Yup, told ya'... it's brown!

So what's the opinion around here... match what we see on screen or match what was in reality on set?

This is the million dollar question...I have always gone by what is seen on screen. That way, no one says that it looks strange if you go with the actual on set color...

Dalexs wrote:With the age of digital cameras, Color grading has become a huge tool/job in the industry.
Its to a point where its even part of the curriculum for my sons film program in college.

I remember seeing a thing a while ago about Birdman, and how they shot most of the night scenes during the day and simply color graded the raw footage
to match what was needed.

This is a good primer on on how Color Grading with LUTs filtering basically works and what can be done with it.



Dalexs

Thanks for adding that

When I was first learning screenwriting as a kid 50 years ago, the term old scripts used was DAY FOR NIGHT, exactly the technique you describe in "Birdman."

DAY FOR NIGHT in old movies and TV episodes typically looked like the compromise it was -- with daylight shadows and a dim overall look to the scene, losing a lot of visual detail and resolution. With the arrival of better film stock and cameras over the years when they still used actual film, I thought DAY FOR NIGHT was no longer used. Digital "filming" probably changes the equation of what can be done to tweak how the footage finally looks.

I wonder if writers still head "night" scenes that way, or just leave it up to the director and cinematographer to decide whether to shoot at night or shoot during the day (probably easier and cheaper) and "create" night afterwards?

Howard Weinstein wrote:
Thanks for adding that

When I was first learning screenwriting as a kid 50 years ago, the term old scripts used was DAY FOR NIGHT, exactly the technique you describe in "Birdman."

DAY FOR NIGHT in old movies and TV episodes typically looked like the compromise it was -- with daylight shadows and a dim overall look to the scene, losing a lot of visual detail and resolution. With the arrival of better film stock and cameras over the years when they still used actual film, I thought DAY FOR NIGHT was no longer used. Digital "filming" probably changes the equation of what can be done to tweak how the footage finally looks.

I wonder if writers still head "night" scenes that way, or just leave it up to the director and cinematographer to decide whether to shoot at night or shoot during the day (probably easier and cheaper) and "create" night afterwards?

My guess is the director, schedule and budget determine that.

I just saw a modern tv show that had a blatant day for night scene where they just color graded it to be "night". I would think it's out of the writer's hands once it's in production. I'm not sure what interest it would be to a writer to determine it.

But again, tat's my guess.

For CS, weren't all the night scenes filmed on set? So it wouldn't really matter much.

Dalexs wrote: I should pull up some ungraded film footage and show comparisons to graded and final release.

That would be fun to see! Please do this if you can! I am always fascinated by the huge difference in picture and sound quality I see in "behind the scenes" clips from "making of" documentaries, in which scenes sometimes look and sound quite amateurish compared to the final on-screen result. I'd love to learn more about how "raw footage" is manipulated to give us what we see and hear onscreen.

Back on topic: learning that the original Indy hats were probably a very dark brown helps me better accept the dark color of my Akubra Fed IV. In my mind's eye, I always picture the Indy hat as being a sort of tan color, definitely leaning more toward "fawn" than "sable," even though that is not accurate.

EDIT: Oh! I see you already posted something about this! I should have finished reading through the topic before commeting!