Club Obi Wan

It's been awhile since I've read deeply here on COW, and I've only recently learned that the HJ supposedly found the original Raiders block late last year. I believe there was a big thread here, but that it's now gone.

So, I apologize in advance for asking anyone to rehash this, but as an owner of two ABs for over four years (one rabbit, one beaver), I'm looking for some real, unabashed, brutally honest opinions:

Did HJ truly find -the- block?
What about the felt/ribbon?
How do the hats built on the 'found block' compare to Steve's work?

In sum: we happy?

Again, I apologize for being late to this, but if folks are willing to sum up the community's feelings/determinations on this extraordinary situation I would be most grateful.

Thanks!
Michael

Welcome back!

Answer to question 1, yes

Answer to question 2, yes, they're either the same or comparable. The felt is now the highly rated Portuguese felt, so in my opinion, it's actually WAY better than the original. The ribbon is the same source according to HJ.

Answer to question 3, Yes, but it's reverse. Steve did a great job reproducing what he saw on the screen. His blocks are comparable to the original HJ block in spec, and all due to his diligence in personal research.

Answer to the sum? Yes, and no. Depends on who you ask. Most folks are over the moon, but a few souls are EXTREMEMLY upset.

It's a toss of the coin which side folks fall on.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Welcome back!

Answer to question 1, yes

Answer to question 2, yes, they're either the same or comparable. The felt is now the highly rated Portuguese felt, so in my opinion, it's actually WAY better than the original. The ribbon is the same source according to HJ.

Answer to question 3, Yes, but it's reverse. Steve did a great job reproducing what he saw on the screen. His blocks are comparable to the original HJ block in spec, and all due to his diligence in personal research.

Answer to the sum? Yes, and no. Depends on who you ask. Most folks are over the moon, but a few souls are EXTREMEMLY upset.

It's a toss of the coin which side folks fall on.

Regards! Michaelson

Thank you sir!

Sounds like I need to get myself to London at some point to see these in person. I kind of feel like a little, tiny part of my world has been turned upside down!

Yeah, it was a pretty good jolt for everyone in the hobby, that's for sure.

We were lucky to get someone inside HJ who actually cared about us for once.

Let us know what you find when you get there!

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Welcome back!

Answer to question 1, yes

Answer to question 2, yes, they're either the same or comparable. The felt is now the highly rated Portuguese felt, so in my opinion, it's actually WAY better than the original. The ribbon is the same source according to HJ.

Answer to question 3, Yes, but it's reverse. Steve did a great job reproducing what he saw on the screen. His blocks are comparable to the original HJ block in spec, and all due to his diligence in personal research.

Answer to the sum? Yes, and no. Depends on who you ask. Most folks are over the moon, but a few souls are EXTREMEMLY upset.

It's a toss of the coin which side folks fall on.

Regards! Michaelson

Hello! New to the site, and was wondering if you have any more sources for the original block coming back.

I don't, but when Jack returns (which he said is soon), I'm sure he can fill you in on all the specifics again.

Per his request, we had to archive his original posts due to business considerations.

By the way, WELCOME!!!!!!!

Regards! Michaelson

Hi guys.


Will return soon.

Although I am no longer at herbert Johnson.

Explanations to follow in due course.


All the best Jack.

HJ didn’t find the block, I asked them in fb and admitted it wasn’t the original bat block.

Holy necropost. I thought I heard that they found old production blocks for that model and recreated them for the new production.

D00R wrote:HJ didn’t find the block, I asked them in fb and admitted it wasn’t the original bat block.

Please,
Could you post the fb link where they admit that?
Thanks in advance.-

Will be quite interesting at the least if true. I remember back when there were some doubts about this.

Jeremiah wrote:Will be quite interesting at the least if true. I remover back when there were some doubts about this.

I'm interested to read the actual post, on facebook.

Because, I think all the info Jack shared with us (back then) was true.
I really trust the official (for once) word from HERBERT JOHNSON.-

So do we know if they did or did not find the actual block? and what of this facebook post?

For what it's worth...

I purchased a Raiders Poet in Beaver back right before Jack left. To my eye, it looked dimensionally spot on to the Raiders SOC that I had always wanted. I had others from the vendors mentioned above, and while they were exceptionally crafted hats, the crown never seemed quite tall enough to my perceptions on screen. The HJ reboot nailed the look I wanted. The first day I wore it was at the Nashville ComicCon and I had two people ask me if it was the HJ reboot; so it must have something distinctive. In June, I was at Animal Kingdom and had a cast member come up to me asking it it was the HJ too; when I said yes, he exclaimed "I KNEW IT!"

I did order another in Rabbit just to have an "as seen on movie" version that sits dusted on my shelf. I cannot speak to provenance of blocks but I can say that after getting the HJ Reboot, I sold all my other hats (I do still have a Steve Delk in rabbit that I may part with at some point but I don't wear it any more).

Hope this helps,

RideGuy

My penman raiders looks SA enough to me. Anything taller would just look absurd to my eyes.
https://imgur.com/a/qgYSynV

That’s a fine hat, Jeremiah. My ABL is also my favorite Indy hat.

As for the supposed Facebook conversation, forgive me if I don’t put much stock in a one sentence post by a member with 10 posts, and who hasn’t provided photographic evidence.

yeah, would like to see that FB post myself, so I am skeptical, but equally so of some of the assertions made about the HJ back in the heyday.

My first thought is always to trust on people I don't know.
If I don't know a person, I have no reason to distrust.

On Jack case, I trusted him when he said HJ found true Raiders block.
With time I've found no reason to distrust his word.
Then, I've seen in person a "Raiders HJ reboot fedora".
IMO, it's the closer block I saw, after 10 years of trying to replicate the correct Raiders block.

About D00R post, I don't know him. Firstly I trust him.
Then, I ask for further info.

On the other hand, I recently saw on fb some kind of "movement" to discredit HJ reboot, with no proves at all.
And maybe, they want to bring the discredit on COW, too.

Cheers.-

PS:
BTW, crown height on a hat doesn't mean it wasn't blocked on the real Raiders block.
It just means it was made too tall.
Is the way the hatmaker works with the block.
There's a Jason (Fedoraiders) tutorial somewhere, were he explains about it.

My 2 cents: the HJ reboot is the real deal. I started looking for the Raiders hat in 1984 and over the years I purchased many replicas from many vendors, including 2 Adventurebilts. As soon as I took the HJ reboot out of the box, I knew my Grail quest was over. Supporters of other hatters (and one well-known hatter himself) have done their best to discredit the reboot, so pick your side. For me, the proof was in the pudding, not the put-ons.

Please note: I only have hands on (and heads on) experience with the hat I bought from Jack when he was still with HJ.

eazybox wrote:My 2 cents: the HJ reboot is the real deal. I started looking for the Raiders hat in 1984 and over the years I purchased many replicas from many vendors, including 2 Adventurebilts. As soon as I took the HJ reboot out of the box, I knew my Grail quest was over. Supporters of other hatters (and one well-known hatter himself) have done their best to discredit the reboot, so pick your side. For me, the proof was in the pudding, not the put-ons.

Agree 100%

Indiego Jones wrote:

eazybox wrote:My 2 cents: the HJ reboot is the real deal. I started looking for the Raiders hat in 1984 and over the years I purchased many replicas from many vendors, including 2 Adventurebilts. As soon as I took the HJ reboot out of the box, I knew my Grail quest was over. Supporters of other hatters (and one well-known hatter himself) have done their best to discredit the reboot, so pick your side. For me, the proof was in the pudding, not the put-ons.

Agree 100%

So guide me on how I can get this wonderful hat made on the original block. Herbert Johnson seems not to know anything about it when talking with them.
Perhaps Easybox can help me. He seems to know an awful lot on the situation.

If "the" very same block still exists that the film hats were made on how could anyone identify it unless it was marked some way? I don't see what the big deal is. Now that I've been making hats for a while I know this particular style/shaped block is a very commonly used mold. Jack showed me a pic of a HUGE pile of blocks in HJ storage and the first question I had was, "How can you tell which block is the one Ford's hats were made on from the other bunch?" Jack told me he wasn't sure and the current staff at HJ don't know either and never made this claim.

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk

Also If you know what you're looking for(I do) you can hop over to ebay and buy yourself a Raiders-style hat block right now.

Nothing really unique about an "original" block unless you wear a 58 or 59 ( whatever Harrison's size is?)and could determine which block it was from the rest of the pile in HJ's storage.

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Thanks Brian.

Jeremiah wrote:So guide me on how I can get this wonderful hat made on the original block. Herbert Johnson seems not to know anything about it when talking with them.
Perhaps Easybox can help me. He seems to know an awful lot on the situation.

I'm not interested in getting baited into the usual political games that go on here. Like any other member, I can only give my honest opinion (which I did call 2 cents) based on my personal experience, in response to an honest question. I do recall there were people making spurious claims and accusations the last time I got involved in this discussion. And I also recall Jack saying in the HJ REBOOT thread that the blocks he found were clearly marked. But you'll have to hash out the rest without me, I just ain't interested in the drama.

Lol. You sure show up every time it happens though.

Screencapped wrote:Also If you know what you're looking for(I do) you can hop over to ebay and buy yourself a Raiders-style hat block right now.

Nothing really unique about an "original" block unless you wear a 58 or 59 ( whatever Harrison's size is?)and could determine which block it was from the rest of the pile in HJ's storage.

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk

Brian, if you don't mind sharing a little insider knowledge, is there a particular block that qualifies as a Raiders style block? A number (as some of us already know, old wood blocks were numbered to indicate style) or certain specs?

Not that we all want to start a hat-making biz as you and others have done. But some us would find the right block useful for maintaining our own hats.

I'd read that the #52 block was close, so I got one. Turns out the #52 is slightly tapered front and back, so it really doesn't yield the all-around straightsided shape of an Indy hat. Which block does the job?

Thanks!

Howard Weinstein wrote:I'd read that the #52 block was close, so I got one. Turns out the #52 is slightly tapered front and back, so it really doesn't yield the all-around straightsided shape of an Indy hat.

Not to cut in, and I'm sure Brian can advise you on the right block, but I think you're operating under a mistaken premise here:




The Raiders hat definitely has some front-back taper. Not a lot, but it's there.

Jeremiah wrote:Lol. You sure show up every time it happens though.

Every time what happens? Aside from one or two other threads, I haven't posted here for years, and trolls like you are one of the main reasons why. LOL.

Wow. Didn’t take you long to resort to name calling. Speaks volumes. Have a nice day and thanks for evading my question to point me in the direction which tells me that they have THE block and are using it to make the hats.

Alright, throwing a cold bucket of water on both of you. No need to be short with each other.

If there are questions about the block HJ is using, HJ is the best source of information.

easybox stated his opinion that HJ is using an original block based on the hat he received.

Jeremiah, you can believe it or not. If you've spoken to HJ and they have given you an answer then no need to continue to ask the question.


Regard,

Indiana Jeff

Howard Weinstein wrote:

Screencapped wrote:Also If you know what you're looking for(I do) you can hop over to ebay and buy yourself a Raiders-style hat block right now.

Nothing really unique about an "original" block unless you wear a 58 or 59 ( whatever Harrison's size is?)and could determine which block it was from the rest of the pile in HJ's storage.

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk

Brian, if you don't mind sharing a little insider knowledge, is there a particular block that qualifies as a Raiders style block? A number (as some of us already know, old wood blocks were numbered to indicate style) or certain specs?

Not that we all want to start a hat-making biz as you and others have done. But some us would find the right block useful for maintaining our own hats.

I'd read that the #52 block was close, so I got one. Turns out the #52 is slightly tapered front and back, so it really doesn't yield the all-around straightsided shape of an Indy hat. Which block does the job?

Thanks!

Mulceber is right. The block has very slight taper front and back as is the case with most other blocks I've seen except for Top hats and Boaters. And Howard your #52 is what I use for all of my Indy hats.

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Screencapped wrote:

Howard Weinstein wrote:

Screencapped wrote:Also If you know what you're looking for(I do) you can hop over to ebay and buy yourself a Raiders-style hat block right now.

Nothing really unique about an "original" block unless you wear a 58 or 59 ( whatever Harrison's size is?)and could determine which block it was from the rest of the pile in HJ's storage.

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk

Brian, if you don't mind sharing a little insider knowledge, is there a particular block that qualifies as a Raiders style block? A number (as some of us already know, old wood blocks were numbered to indicate style) or certain specs?

Not that we all want to start a hat-making biz as you and others have done. But some us would find the right block useful for maintaining our own hats.

I'd read that the #52 block was close, so I got one. Turns out the #52 is slightly tapered front and back, so it really doesn't yield the all-around straightsided shape of an Indy hat. Which block does the job?

Thanks!

Mulceber is right. The block has very slight taper front and back as is the case with most other blocks I've seen except for Top hats and Boaters. And Howard your #52 is what I use for all of my Indy hats.

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk

Thanks for the input, Brian (and Mulceber). Then I'll stop obsessing about finding a closer block than the #52

I guess the appearance (or disappearance) of a slight front/rear taper depends to a great extent on the hat itself in any given scene, and the angle of the shot. It's kind of maddening when the hat looks different scene to scene, let alone film to film.

Jeremiah wrote:Wow. Didn’t take you long to resort to name calling. Speaks volumes. Have a nice day and thanks for evading my question to point me in the direction which tells me that they have THE block and are using it to make the hats.

How would I, a customer, be the go-to guy to ask a question like that? The reason I got "short" with you, as Indiana Jeff phrased it, was the snide implication behind your "question," which I resent, the same way I resented it (but held back my anger) the last time when you and other trolls implied that I had some kind of undercover connection with HJ. If you want to waste everyone's time spreading conspiracy theories about other members, then you should at least be upfront enough to come out and say it directly instead of being a weasel. Have a nice day.

The block has very slight taper front and back as is the case with most other blocks I've seen except for Top hats and Boaters.

Interesting, I didn’t realize it was so universal. then again, I can’t recall seeing any hats that didn’t have the back-front taper, so I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.

It's kind of maddening when the hat looks different scene to scene, let alone film to film.

Almost makes you nostalgic for back when you couldn’t tell the difference between the hats from the different movies, doesn’t it?

Mulceber wrote:

The block has very slight taper front and back as is the case with most other blocks I've seen except for Top hats and Boaters.

Interesting, I didn’t realize it was so universal. then again, I can’t recall seeing any hats that didn’t have the back-front taper, so I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.

It's kind of maddening when the hat looks different scene to scene, let alone film to film.

Almost makes you nostalgic for back when you couldn’t tell the difference between the hats from the different movies, doesn’t it?

Ha! It does indeed, Mulceber, it does indeed (darn digital screen grabs!)

So Jeff, what are you going to do about easybox? If that would have been me who had the last word and continued it, rather than take your advice and cool it, you would have already jumped on here and posted. So am I to conclude he is immune to the TOS and able to post name calling with impunity?

Let me know because I certainly have a response to easybox. If name calling is now allowed it’s fine but it wiLL be honored both ways right?

Ok, let's all take a step back please and move along.

Jeff asked both of you to settle down, thats it. Don't make more of it then it is.
You've both been going at it today and it has not gone unnoticed.

And people wonder why we delete posts & threads...

Can we please bring this thread back on topic.

Thank you.

Dalexs

Fine. Sorry Jeff.

Trying to get us back on track...

One thing I’d like to say is that it took me a long time to realIze that the hat looks the way it does in the films because of, well, the hat, but ALSO (and perhaps especially) because of how it fit the man wearing it.

That’s part of what makes a truly high quality hat special, especially one with some of the qualities of the Raiders hat.

The measurements, and certainly the block, play a huge role, but so many of the idiosyncrasies we now consider part of “hat canon” are derived from the way the thing sat on Ford’s head.

All of which is to say, whatever look you’re going for, it has to happen on YOUR head, regardless of who makes the hat.

michael wrote:Trying to get us back on track...

One thing I’d like to say is that it took me a long time to realIze that the hat looks the way it does in the films because of, well, the hat, but ALSO (and perhaps especially) because of how it fit the man wearing it.

That’s part of what makes a truly high quality hat special, especially one with some of the qualities of the Raiders hat.

The measurements, and certainly the block, play a huge role, but so many of the idiosyncrasies we now consider part of “hat canon” are derived from the way the thing sat on Ford’s head.

All of which is to say, whatever look you’re going for, it has to happen on YOUR head, regardless of who makes the hat.

That is true. The two Adventurebilts from Steve Delk and the one remaining Swales HJ in my collection happen to look better on my head than the HJ reboot, although the reboot is a closer match to what I see in the movie.

I do not wish to touch off another kerfuffle-- just want to add my own thoughts on the original question. Everyone has their opinion on this issue, to which they are entitled, but consensus among members here seems elusive. Some "interested parties" have their own agendas, others are prejudiced for or against one hatter or another. Cognitive dissonance takes over, and any attempt at reasonable discussion is drowned out by the noise.

As a result, what often happens on this forum appears to have happened yet again-- the truth, whatever it may be, has been fogged over by conflicting contentions and at times questionable motives, many people do not know who or what to believe, and the lack of a clear direction has landed us in the familiar waters of Cape Impasse, where no forward progress can be made. At times over the years, it has seemed to me that some members here prefer things that way, and I am far from the only person who has made that observation.

My own views expressed here have not changed, but I do believe the fog needs to be dispersed. For that to happen, someone in a position to know (obviously, HJ or Jack) should provide conclusive, authoritative answers, hopefully accompanied by some form of documentation. Will that put the matter to rest? Probably not, especially in this believe-whatever-you-want-and-call-everything-else-fake-news world we now live in. I won't hold my breath, but I do hold out hope.

I wish/hope Jack WOULD stick his head in the door for clarification of certain facts, but he has been fighting a VERY serious and life threatening illness for a quite a while now, so I have no doubt at this time this is a back burner topic for him at the moment.

Here's praying he comes out on the other side healthy and back to full time hatting.....but for the time being, please keep him in your thoughts and prayers, as he isn't able to defend himself at the moment.

Thank you.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:I wish/hope Jack WOULD stick his head in the door for clarification of certain facts, but he has been fighting a VERY serious and life threatening illness for a quite a while now, so I have no doubt at this time this is a back burner topic for him at the moment.

Here's praying he comes out on the other side healthy and back to full time hatting.....but for the time being, please keep him in your thoughts and prayers, as he isn't able to defend himself at the moment.

Thank you.

Regards! Michaelson

Oh no! He was so nice and helpful when he posted here. I do hope he'll be OK.

Michaelson wrote:I wish/hope Jack WOULD stick his head in the door for clarification of certain facts, but he has been fighting a VERY serious and life threatening illness for a quite a while now, so I have no doubt at this time this is a back burner topic for him at the moment.

Here's praying he comes out on the other side healthy and back to full time hatting.....but for the time being, please keep him in your thoughts and prayers, as he isn't able to defend himself at the moment.

Thank you.

Regards! Michaelson

Absolutely. I am aware of Jack's illness and have been sending my prayers his way. He's a kind, thoughtful and giving man, aside from and more important than his talent as a hatter.

Definitely. Hope he gets well soon.

Very sorry to hear that.

Howard Weinstein wrote:

Screencapped wrote:Also If you know what you're looking for(I do) you can hop over to ebay and buy yourself a Raiders-style hat block right now.

Nothing really unique about an "original" block unless you wear a 58 or 59 ( whatever Harrison's size is?)and could determine which block it was from the rest of the pile in HJ's storage.

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk

Brian, if you don't mind sharing a little insider knowledge, is there a particular block that qualifies as a Raiders style block? A number (as some of us already know, old wood blocks were numbered to indicate style) or certain specs?

Not that we all want to start a hat-making biz as you and others have done. But some us would find the right block useful for maintaining our own hats.

I'd read that the #52 block was close, so I got one. Turns out the #52 is slightly tapered front and back, so it really doesn't yield the all-around straightsided shape of an Indy hat. Which block does the job?

Thanks!

The original blocks were tappered slightly on the sides and quite a bit front to back. I have 5 original poets from the Raiders period one with an almost pristen unbashed crown and they are clearly tappered. The side tapper is only slight which is why it looks striaghtish on screen. If they are made straight they mushroom like some of the earlier copies that were offered with the straight sides. Does the No.52 have an even tapper all the way round or more on the front and back?