The Perfect Crown for A Raiders Hat

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Thu May 25, 2017 2:53 pm

I know that many fans don't see this detail or don't like to see this but this detail is very important for a true Raiders crown. The right side of the crown is taper. My pictures speak for themselves.

And there many fans like to think that the crown is very square on the 2 sides. Unfortunately, this is a popular belief that is not true. Sorry! Look my pictures to understand!

These 2 details together make a true Raiders hat. It's very hard to find because it’s the result of degrees of the Raiders turn combined with the angle of the block and combined with the oval form. Millions of possibilities

Thanks for Looking!

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Thu May 25, 2017 4:59 pm

THAT is a great picture from which to work.

Canyon · Post by **Canyon** » Thu May 25, 2017 5:06 pm

Wow! That is the first time I have EVER seen that picture!!!

Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » Thu May 25, 2017 5:07 pm

Is this the reason why one of my camel humps always seem to be slightly higher on one side? Interesting.

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Thu May 25, 2017 5:40 pm

I think that I have over 12,000 pictures and screenshot of Raiders and I have a lot of rare pictures.

Few years ago, I have classified by date all pictures where we see the Raiders hat. I call this document: The evolution of the Raiders hat in chronological order.

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Thu May 25, 2017 11:22 pm

I guess Deborah Nadoolman's posterior is heavier on one side???

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Fri May 26, 2017 3:19 am

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/2571/zW7hd6.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I REMOVED the higher ribbon here on the left. You can see how much narrower the brim is than how it looks with the raised ribbon too.

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Fri May 26, 2017 9:31 pm

anindyjones wrote:I guess Deborah Nadoolman's posterior is heavier on one side???

Lol!

Deborah Nadoolman is the costume designer who made the best costumes and the best choice for a hat.

She made the hat of Indiana Jones in Raiders an icon.

For me, the center pinch is his artwork and I love this woman for this.

The center pinch should have been a standard in the next movies.

Long live to Deborah Nadoolman and her posterior. Lol!

Arch Stanton · Post by **Arch Stanton** » Sat May 27, 2017 12:52 am

These are probably the best direct front pictures I have ever seen. After years of torment trying to get it right I gave up. Harrison Ford's slightly crooked nose always made me go nuts when I was trying to do tiny visual calculations and comparisons. Even with these full face-on pics it's still a tedious chore. A little while back I even printed out some pics from Raiders after I flipped them in photoshop. I then taped them to my mirror and kept trying to get it right until I actually got sweaty and anxious.

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Sat May 27, 2017 7:32 pm

Arch Stanton wrote:These are probably the best direct front pictures I have ever seen. After years of torment trying to get it right I gave up. Harrison Ford's slightly crooked nose always made me go nuts when I was trying to do tiny visual calculations and comparisons. Even with these full face-on pics it's still a tedious chore. A little while back I even printed out some pics from Raiders after I flipped them in photoshop. I then taped them to my mirror and kept trying to get it right until I actually got sweaty and anxious.

I agree with you, I think that this hat is obsession for many fans.

I'm curious, I see the Quebec flag on avatar, are you from Quebec?

Arch Stanton · Post by **Arch Stanton** » Sat May 27, 2017 9:44 pm

Originally from Detroit, Michigan, but for the past 6 years I have been in Québec. I am near Québec City right now, but am back and forth to Laval and Montréal a lot to see family and for some projects I'm trying real hard to get started. Right now I'm trying to get something going with Drawn & Quarterly. Here's hoping!

Last weekend I got to go to the Saguenay area. OoOoOooooh, man, that was beautiful. I like to show my adopted fierté Québécoise when I can!

Arch Stanton · Post by **Arch Stanton** » Sat May 27, 2017 9:48 pm

Aha! Now I see YOU'RE from Québec. Salut!

Arch Stanton · Post by **Arch Stanton** » Sat May 27, 2017 10:19 pm

I couldn't remember where I saw the pictures your post reminded me of earlier, but then I remembered it was while looking at the Adventurebilt 'Henry'. I can can clearly see in the Henry this phenomenon uncovered in your close research. For some reason it looks very boxy at a glance, but on closer inspection you can see it's actually quite tapered as you demonstrate in the screencaps. The crown height anomalies you pointed out can be seen as well. The things you've pointed out changes everything! You've obliterated the status quo of Club Obi Wan!

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat May 27, 2017 10:44 pm

And take a look at this new HJ from their facebook page. Straight from the original block...

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Sun May 28, 2017 9:07 am

Arch Stanton wrote:Originally from Detroit, Michigan, but for the past 6 years I have been in Québec. I am near Québec City right now, but am back and forth to Laval and Montréal a lot to see family and for some projects I'm trying real hard to get started. Right now I'm trying to get something going with Drawn & Quarterly. Here's hoping! Last weekend I got to go to the Saguenay area. OoOoOooooh, man, that was beautiful. I like to show my adopted fierté Québécoise when I can!

Yes, I'm from Quebec too. I live in the region of Lanaudiere.

It's fun to see that you enjoyed Quebec. I love the Saguenay too.

I have visited almost all the regions of Quebec and my favorite is La Côte-Nord with his Ile Mingan.

There is also Gaspésie, Abitibi and Les Iles de la Madeleine and more.

Have a good day my friend!

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Sun May 28, 2017 9:21 am

Arch Stanton wrote:I couldn't remember where I saw the pictures your post reminded me of earlier, but then I remembered it was while looking at the Adventurebilt 'Henry'. I can can clearly see in the Henry this phenomenon uncovered in your close research. For some reason it looks very boxy at a glance, but on closer inspection you can see it's actually quite tapered as you demonstrate in the screencaps. The crown height anomalies you pointed out can be seen as well. The things you've pointed out changes everything! You've obliterated the status quo of Club Obi Wan!

Lol! Perfect!

I see you are passionate too by the Raiders Hat. I'm not alone in Quebec, lol!

I agree whit you message my friend!

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Sun May 28, 2017 9:44 am

Mulceber wrote:And take a look at this new HJ from their facebook page. Straight from the original block...

But on your picture, the crown is too high. Fortunately, Herbert Johnson decided to make a lower hat.

And I'm very happy to see this.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sun May 28, 2017 11:11 am

Oh, I agree the crown is too high, although I suspect that is due to the depth of the center dent - the original Raiders hat had a very deep center dent, effectively pulling down the crown height to 4.75 inches (as you've posted elsewhere

). From the pictures HJ has been posting, it looks like the new hats have rather shallow center dents, which may account for why their Raiders hat on the standard block looks so tall.

In any event, it looks like the new HJs have exactly the type of taper you've described: taper on one side, reverse taper on the other. Almost like the leaning tower of Pisa.

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Sun May 28, 2017 2:36 pm

Mulceber wrote:Oh, I agree the crown is too high, although I suspect that is due to the depth of the center dent - the original Raiders hat had a very deep center dent, effectively pulling down the crown height to 4.75 inches (as you've posted elsewhere ). From the pictures HJ has been posting, it looks like the new hats have rather shallow center dents, which may account for why their Raiders hat on the standard block looks so tall.

In any event, it looks like the new HJs have exactly the type of taper you've described: taper on one side, reverse taper on the other. Almost like the leaning tower of Pisa.

You are right, the center dent is another important point for a good Raiders hat.

It would be difficult to explain this in English because I'm a French Canadian and my english is not better than few years ago.

You are right, the hat that wore Harrison in Raiders have a very depth center dent. But this is one of the details that is difficult to analyze on the Herbert Johnson hat. If we try to give a more pronounced center dent, the hat will become very too taper on the 2 sides like Temple of doom.

It's this detail that I have difficulty to explain in english but I try. It may seem contradictory but it's not the height of the block but the shape of the block combined with Raiders Turn who makes a difference to have a depth center dent. But I understand your opinion and your are right too.

It takes a lot of experiencing to find a perfect Raiders turn and to give with the hands a Raiders shape when the hat is open crown.

Give the Raiders shape with the hands, It's what makes all difference and it's the one I really have the facility with this work. it's my specialty with dust.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sun May 28, 2017 3:06 pm

fedoraiders wrote:You are right, the center dent is another important point for a good Raiders hat.

It would be difficult to explain this in English because I'm a French Canadian and my english is not better than few years ago.

You are right, the hat that wore Harrison in Raiders have a very depth center dent. But this is one of the details that is difficult to analyze on the Herbert Johnson hat. If we try to give a more pronounced center dent, the hat will become very too taper on the 2 sides like Temple of doom.

It's this detail that I have difficulty to explain in english but I try. It may seem contradictory but it's not the height of the block but the shape of the block combined with Raiders Turn who makes a difference to have a depth center dent. But I understand your opinion and your are right too.

It takes a lot of experiencing to find a perfect Raiders turn and to give with the hands a Raiders shape when the hat is open crown.

Give the Raiders shape with the hands, It's what makes all difference and it's the one I really have the facility with this work. it's my specialty with dust.

C'est parfaitement claire. Merci pour expliquer en Anglais; c'est beaucoup mieux que mon Français.

And you're certainly right: normally, a deep center dent will produce a lot of taper, and it has to be the conditions of the open crown hat (the degree of turn, the shape of the block) that allow it to have a deep center dent without looking like the Temple of Doom hat.

I'll be receiving a new HJ Raiders made on the original block this Wednesday, so I'm soon going to get some first-hand experience at trying to strike the right balance.

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Sun May 28, 2017 4:51 pm

Mulceber wrote:
fedoraiders wrote:You are right, the center dent is another important point for a good Raiders hat.

It would be difficult to explain this in English because I'm a French Canadian and my english is not better than few years ago.

You are right, the hat that wore Harrison in Raiders have a very depth center dent. But this is one of the details that is difficult to analyze on the Herbert Johnson hat. If we try to give a more pronounced center dent, the hat will become very too taper on the 2 sides like Temple of doom.

It's this detail that I have difficulty to explain in english but I try. It may seem contradictory but it's not the height of the block but the shape of the block combined with Raiders Turn who makes a difference to have a depth center dent. But I understand your opinion and your are right too.

It takes a lot of experiencing to find a perfect Raiders turn and to give with the hands a Raiders shape when the hat is open crown.

Give the Raiders shape with the hands, It's what makes all difference and it's the one I really have the facility with this work. it's my specialty with dust.
C'est parfaitement claire. Merci pour expliquer en Anglais; c'est beaucoup mieux que mon Français. And you're certainly right: normally, a deep center dent will produce a lot of taper, and it has to be the conditions of the open crown hat (the degree of turn, the shape of the block) that allow it to have a deep center dent without looking like the Temple of Doom hat.

I'll be receiving a new HJ Raiders made on the original block this Wednesday, so I'm soon going to get some first-hand experience at trying to strike the right balance.

You know the Raiders hat very well.

I trust that you give a good shape at your new Herbert Johnson.

Please, take a pictures before and after to show the evolution of your hat.

For the pleasure, take a measurements too!

I'm impatient to see this.

Have a good week my friend!

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sun May 28, 2017 5:19 pm

Thanks, that's a real compliment coming from you. Every hat of yours that I've seen looks spot on. I'm impatient to see the new HJ as well. I'll take as many photographs and post as many measurements as I can. This should be a fun experiment - we have a hat from the Raiders block, so now are we able to get it to look like the Raiders hat?

baddates1 · Post by **baddates1** » Sun May 28, 2017 6:29 pm

Is the AB Henry even made anymore? Or would Mark happen to have one on hand or be willing to have one made again?

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Mon May 29, 2017 8:24 am

Mulceber wrote:Thanks, that's a real compliment coming from you. Every hat of yours that I've seen looks spot on. I'm impatient to see the new HJ as well. I'll take as many photographs and post as many measurements as I can. This should be a fun experiment - we have a hat from the Raiders block, so now are we able to get it to look like the Raiders hat?

I think you are jut to find the perfect Raiders turn and you should have THE Raiders hat.

Usually it's between 1 inch and 1 1/4inch. You can make a simulation and don't pinch too much the felt.

When you find a good place, It's enough to give accent to the central pinch and to the top of the hat.

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Mon May 29, 2017 10:53 am

Logically, Richard Swales has made all hats for Raiders with a same block.

The hat on the down pictures is a another hat used in Raiders but this hat doesn't have a Raiders turn.

The crown look very good on the front picture BUT the center dent is not depth like a true Raiders hat.

The back of this hat have approximately 4 1/2 and it’s really too high. The correct height of the back of the hat must be between 3 1/2 and 3 3/4.

If we drop the back of this actual hat at 3 1/2, It will become very taper like the Temple of Doom.

It is for this reason that the Raiders turn is very important for a new hats from Herbert Johnson if we want the Raiders look. Square on the left side and taper on the right side.

You will probably be able to answer the question my friend.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon May 29, 2017 11:50 am

Really? 3 1/2 to 3 3/4? So low?

Fortunately or unfortunately, the hat is coming with a crease already in it, but it shouldn't be too hard to pop out the crease and lower the crown. I just hope the old crease won't be too visible...if the old crease is visible, do you know of any way to make it less visible...without giving it a full reblock, that is?

Yeah, you can really tell that the opening hat is a different hat. Thankfully, I've pulled together 8 or so images of THE Raiders hat to guide me: https://goo.gl/photos/G4xmFsuNaAALfwaf7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon May 29, 2017 12:08 pm

I also think this image may have something to do with the phenomenon you observed of the one "hump" of the crown being higher than the other:

The weird shape of the center dent has something to do with it: it's less a straight line and more curved like a banana. The outside of the curve lowers that hump and pushes it outward, creating the reverse taper. The inside of the curve raises the other hump and creates taper.

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Mon May 29, 2017 12:21 pm

Mulceber wrote:Really? 3 1/2 to 3 3/4? So low?

Fortunately or unfortunately, the hat is coming with a crease already in it, but it shouldn't be too hard to pop out the crease and lower the crown. I just hope the old crease won't be too visible...if the old crease is visible, do you know of any way to make it less visible...without giving it a full reblock, that is?

Yeah, you can really tell that the opening hat is a different hat. Thankfully, I've pulled together 8 or so images of THE Raiders hat to guide me: https://goo.gl/photos/G4xmFsuNaAALfwaf7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3 3/4 is perfect for a back a Raiders hat. But if you receive your hat too high, it's will be impossible to drop enough.

Ideally, it's to buy open crown but I think that their pinch and crease are not very accentuated.

When you recive you hat, take a pictures and I will give you my opinion.

By the way, what is the size of your hat?

Your 8 pictures are correct but you will need a angle pictures.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon May 29, 2017 12:26 pm

60 cm, so from the measurements in your other post, the front pinch should be 4 5/8 inches.

I'll go digging for some angle shots as well.

Travelsonic · Post by **Travelsonic** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:39 am

Pardon me if ppl have seen this already... In this outtakes/bloopers video, 2nd scene, I think you can get a couple of good views of the hat as Indy enters the temple to recover the idol (and cracks up, forcing a cut).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA93BxwiXGw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wish there was a better quality of it somewhere.

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:06 am

Travelsonic wrote:Pardon me if ppl have seen this already... In this outtakes/bloopers video, 2nd scene, I think you can get a couple of good views of the hat as Indy enters the temple to recover the idol (and cracks up, forcing a cut).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA93BxwiXGw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wish there was a better quality of it somewhere.

I have this outake in pictures but it's not really good quality too.

We see the hat in the good positions.

Thanks!

Chindit · Post by **Chindit** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:03 pm

Hi Jason,
This is a little off-topic, but you are obviously someone who has carefully studied crown heights. I would like to get your opinion on the crown height/pinch of the TOD hat (specifically where Indy looks at the stones in the village) vs the Raider's hat. Is the TOD height crown/pinch shorter than the Raiders pinch, or is it just an illusion because of taper and a different pinch style?

Thanks so much.

Joe

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:04 pm

Chindit wrote:Hi Jason,
This is a little off-topic, but you are obviously someone who has carefully studied crown heights. I would like to get your opinion on the crown height/pinch of the TOD hat (specifically where Indy looks at the stones in the village) vs the Raider's hat. Is the TOD height crown/pinch shorter than the Raiders pinch, or is it just an illusion because of taper and a different pinch style?

Thanks so much.

Joe

Hello Chindit!

My perception about the TOD hat when Indy look the stone in the village is that the front pinch is a little bit lowest that the Raiders hat, aproximatly 4 3/8. The front pinch of the Raiders hat is similar at the TOD hat on the third picture of this threed. It's the block make the all difference.

Honestly, I hate the hats from TOD and LC as much as Indy hate the Nazis, lol!

Chindit · Post by **Chindit** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:15 pm

Ha! Thanks Jason.
(Although I have to admit that I hate the TOD hat only "slightly" less than you do. LOL!. No doubt a good Raider's hat is the Holy Grail of fedora fans.)

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:42 pm

Mulceber wrote:I also think this image may have something to do with the phenomenon you observed of the one "hump" of the crown being higher than the other:

The weird shape of the center dent has something to do with it: it's less a straight line and more curved like a banana. The outside of the curve lowers that hump and pushes it outward, creating the reverse taper. The inside of the curve raises the other hump and creates taper.

I really think any reverse taper we see was caused by two things: 1. Deborah Nadoolman's right buttock cheek 2. Deborah Nadoolman's left buttock cheek

Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:57 pm

anindyjones wrote:
Mulceber wrote:I also think this image may have something to do with the phenomenon you observed of the one "hump" of the crown being higher than the other:

The weird shape of the center dent has something to do with it: it's less a straight line and more curved like a banana. The outside of the curve lowers that hump and pushes it outward, creating the reverse taper. The inside of the curve raises the other hump and creates taper.
I really think any reverse taper we see was caused by two things: 1. Deborah Nadoolman's right buttock cheek 2. Deborah Nadoolman's left buttock cheek

Probably just a tad distasteful.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:59 pm

Do you realize what this means? The specs of those butt cheeks are every bit as important as the dimensions of the HJ hat block!

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:14 pm

Sorry Jeremiah, we were getting a little silly. If you want to take down my post, i won't object.

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:31 pm

Mulceber wrote:Sorry Jeremiah, we were getting a little silly. If you want to take down my post, i won't object.

He's not an admins just a tad uptight.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:56 pm

Lol, this is what happens when I write on my phone: I can't see people's status!

Clipper · Post by **Clipper** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:16 pm

I would really like to see a new Herbert Johnson Poet done with these specs. I don't think their bashes on their site look right at all and that's what makes the crown look like a top hat. If the bash is done correctly it could possibly be the best hat out there.

-Clipper

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:28 pm

Agreed: see the HJ (with original block height) that I bashed myself:

It still looks a little tall to me some of the time, but a good bash solves most or all of the problems. But HJ's getting better at it. They had one they posted yesterday that I THINK was on the original block, and it looked like an improvement:

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:44 pm

Mulceber wrote:Agreed: see the HJ (with original block height) that I bashed myself:

It still looks a little tall to me some of the time, but a good bash solves most or all of the problems. But HJ's getting better at it. They had one they posted yesterday that I THINK was on the original block, and it looked like an improvement:

That's one off the new shortened block if I'm not mistaken. It looks much better imo and hats off (pun intended) to whomever bashed it.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:05 am

Ah well. Guess the shorter one's the one I'll be going for when I get this one rebashed. Or maybe not. We'll see.

I'm puzzled though about why the "original block" looks so off. I mean, it's the original height, so why does the one that's a quarter inch shorter look so much better?

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:19 am

Keep in mind that they're not actually using the actual original Poet block. I think only the one was recovered if I understand correctly. I believe a replica of the block is what's being used to make the Raiders hats.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:28 am

I know, but that shouldn't matter, should it? Can't a block maker make an identical copy, and in all the sizes to boot?

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:57 am

I wear a 60cm and the crown on my HJ is 6". The height is supposedly in proportion to my head and face length/shape but I happen to think it's just too tall at least for my tastes.
Ford wears a 7 1/4 (58cm) which is a couple sizes smaller than me so I'm really curious if the folks who wear that size got a hat with a 6" crown or something shorter perhaps?

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:27 am

For me, this hat is perfect

I like to believe that the posts I created have served. In fact, I'm sure!

alaska_mcghee · Post by **alaska_mcghee** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:09 pm

fedoraiders wrote:For me, this hat is perfect

I like to believe that the posts I created have served. In fact, I'm sure!

I take it you really like what Herbert Johnson is offering.

$\:D/$ cant blame you. They look #### good.
Johnny

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat May 22, 2021 11:47 pm

The screen grabs that you used as reference points were taken at the beginning of this action sequence, but we find a bit more misshaping of the hat toward the end of the SoC action sequence and somewhat of a mushroom effect in the hero hat. Why? I think there are a few reasons: the Tunisian heat, the heat inside the hat and the possible fact that this HJ fedora probably did not have much stiffener in it at the time of filming. I suspect that heat, perspiration and lack of stiffener created this perfect storm of an Indy SoC fedora. Fore sure the misshaping. Others, such as hat vendors have stated that the brim appears "wrecked". This and a few other indicators appear to be pointing to a hat that did not have much stiffener, contributing to the misshaping.

The ribbon can be used as a reference point, approx. 1/ 1/2", in order to measure the height of the bashed crown. I prefer a lower crown and for those reasons, an unbashed crown height of 5 1/4". If you have a hat with a 5 1/2" unbashed crown and the center dent is deep, it can cause taper. Some have to put a deeper dent in it because many of us cannot wear a tall crown or because they want a more film accurate look. Otherwise you become Abraham Lincoln Jones, Indy's great-grandfather.

The hat (or hats) as seen in the Elstree studio set pieces and in the beginning of the SoC scenes morphed and almost became a different hat, due to process and location/weather factors.