Club Obi Wan

SERGEI!

If you're listening, I want you to know that this past weekend, I took my new EC 8 footer out to the park for a nice break in/testing session. I also took the 10' DM as well for comparison.

First off, EC Whips have made an amazing whip! This thing takes the punishment and asks for more! I am not one to abuse my whips, nor do I snap them around with unnecessary force, but I tell you that my DM lost its cracker on the first few slings when it was new. This guy GOES and GOES without any signs of weakening!

It took me a second to get used to having a shorter whip, but once I had it down, this thing sang and it was so versatile! I was pulling moves I'd never be able to pull off with the two extra feet. It was a great day in the park. I was a man possessed, slinging that whip around in endless, multi-direction cracking cycles. Awesome whip! Eight footers rock!

Sergei, where once I was blind, now I can see...

IF

Thanks, IF! I need all the good reviews I can get!

Jim

Hey folks this is good testimony on 8 footers. Everyone that is fan definitely leans to the 10 footers. I bought 3, 10 footers before I have seen the light. The 8's are so cool and much more versatile. The other side benefit is your skill level goes way up. I would even recommend the 6 footers. Faster action than the 8. Performers tend to use the 6 foot range for it's fast action and virtually no issues with clearance at most venues.

Well French, I am glad you had a positive experience with the 8 and the ECWhip. Next time I see you, I hope to finally examine one of Jim's whips. Maybe next week when Kyle, me and the LA gang have the "Fedora Lola-Poolaza!"

-Sergei

p.s. I apologize to the whole forum crowd here at Indygear. I have been posting far less than my usual and have struggled with just reading the new posts. I have just had a switch in jobs and joined a small startup company. Quite an ajustment going from a company of 85,000 to 35. The company is brand spanking new and we just moved. So we are working nasty hours just trying to get all our phones, computers, labs,etc. working so that we can start building our new product.

IF,

I lost the cracker off my DM the first few slings, also. But, that really isn't so much DM's fault as it is of the overhand knot that he used for awhile. Because most knots on the fall/cracker attachment need to be seated (as in cracked gently for 5-10 times), a new whip right out of the box probably hasn't been cracked, so the knot is only as tight as it was pulled. Then, it also loosens up a little while it sits in the box during shipment. This also doesn't happen often, and is more infrequent that you think. I used to attach crackers that way, but went to a different way, and showed DM, which is what he uses now.

Check out Kyle Shold's page on how to attach a cracker, or DM's site. This way works very well, but almost makes your fingers bleed when you pull it tight. Try it and you'll see what I mean. On a side note, I am quite pleased I showed DM how to do this knot easily, and he now uses it!

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

I think it is important to talk about the negative aspects of some vendors as well as the positive. This is an expensive hobby and for many of us, myself included, we can't be wasting hard earned money on junk.

On August 15th I had the distinct dis-pleasure of inspecting and cracking IndyFrench's 8' bullwhip that he recently received from EC Whips. With the exception of those $3 black whips they sell at costume shops this was, with out a doubt, one of the worst examples of bullwhip construction I have ever seen.

First off, this thing was light as a feather. There seemed to be no weight in the handle, the butt or the thong. The braiding was very loose and squishy like a sponge. This whip didn't seem to have any guts! The junction where the thong comes off the handle was flaccid and felt like it was going to pull apart and fall off. The entire thong didn't have any weight carried through it and it handled more like a rope. The last three to three and half feet of the thong had absolutely no taper. The strand transitions had very noticeable drop offs and, again, were very spongy. None of the strands in the overlay or wrist loop were skived on the edges resulting in a very choppy and bumpy finish. There were large gaps in the braiding on both the thong and diamond braided grip. Overall, this whip was not constructed to withstand a lot of use. This is not my opinion, this is fact.

Something that is just my opinion has to do with the butt Turk's knot. It was huge! It was bigger than the door knobs in my house. This is just too big for my tastes.

I have no axe to grind with Jim at EC whips. However, in my opinion the EC whip that I inspected was not worth the price that Jim is charging. It was nowhere near a professional whip making standard. If you have three hundred dollars in your pocket and are wanting to buy a bullwhip I urge you to not spend it on an EC whip. There are other more qualified and experienced whip makers out there that can provide you with a much better product for your money.

-Kyle

Well I would like to comment as well. I saw the same whip that IndyFrench won. We cracked it and it was certainly loud. In attendance was Rundquist, MK, French, Dan, Kyle and myself. So there was a running commentary while we put the whip through the ropes. Also, if you people have not figured it out, I'm the type of person that always tries to see good in a person and a product. I trust people that they will do good and when they don't, I trust that they can take constructive criticism. In other words, I like to treat others the same way, I would like to get treated.

The only thing I would add to Kyle's comments, was the spike was protruding out of the butt of the handle. All Kyles technical comments on the construction were right on. Especially the lack of weighting, balance and the plaiting on the two bellies were rather loose. Thus the overlay, when touched you could compress the laces of the overlay at will. In other words, the whip was very spongy for most of the thong. I have almost 20 whips in my collection now, and without exception the tightness of the thong is solid like a hard surface. There is so much resistance when trying to squeeze on any part of the thong.

Is this a fair review for only one whip? One whip does not make a whip maker. The usual benchmark of a master in this craft is about 5 years. So Jim, please take this as constructively as possible. I will be glad to work with you, as well as some others around here to get some feedback over to you. Please believe me that I so wish you would continue. Please do....

-Walt

Dear Kyle,

I would just like to comment that the above comments were made well before the QM Fedora get-together. Also, I think much of my pleasure was just from the joy of playing with an 8 foot whip.

All observations made at QM by Sergei and yourself are highly accurate. I never thought to compare it with my DM beyond the obvious. My eye is not as trained as the whipmasters out there, but I guess that's why we have you guys around.

In any case, I am grateful for the fact that I was able to show this whip to others so more opinions could hit the web and I am also grateful that it came my way freely through a fun contest.

IF

Well, as with any product, I guess there will always be a few pieces that don't turn out the best. I try to do as best I can, without the benefit of having someone to learn from directly like Paul and Kyle did. But I am always open to criticism, as it's what makes you strive to do better. That particular whip was made a few months ago, and is not the best example of my work as I have gotten better since. I realize I still have a few bugs to work out, and because of that I have decided to put any future orders on hold for the time being. My site will still be open for accessories such as falls, poppers and dressing, but whips won't be available until I can get my work a little more refined, and I'll let you guys know when they'll be available again. What I would like to do for the time being is continue making whips, and give one away to someone every month or so for an evaluation. The whip will be free and that person's to keep of course. I'll choose people at random from my list from the original contest. Let me know if anyone else would like to be included.

Best regards,
Jim

...you are an asset to our hobby, sir. It may be helpful to know who is on your list. I know I registered, but then we're not sure if we are actually on your list, so is there a way of posting whose names you have? If not, no problem. Just remember I registered. (grins) Seriously, it may be something to consider. Regards. Michaelson

Jim,
Remarkable response! You are absolutely approaching this correctly and with the right intentions. It sounds like you have an excellent plan. You have my deepest admiration for handling this situation. I think with that kind of attitude you are going to be great. The last thing all of us needed was to have one less whip maker. With your love of the sport and the desire to make an excellent product you will have no problem getting there.

BTW, I do love all you accessories. Expect an order soon. I think your white hide falls are the best. They are more round than flat. I hate the flatter falls that make the whip flutter around. Take Care....

-Sergei

Jim,

Your a class act man. Your attitude and willingness to put your best effort into what you are doing is to be commended. While it may have been disappointing to hear some of the comments, I have a feeling that in the end we will have another heck of a whipmaker among us. You are a good part of the way there as your attitude is outstanding. Glad you are part of our Indy Family.

Mike

As I read this thread it started off extolling the joys of cracking your whip, then descended into the depths of gloom, I felt for Jim reading Kyles and Sergei's comments (I don't think they were being nasty, but the written word sure can sound blunt).

To then read Jim's reply, well, what a man. Any criticism hurts if you take pride in your work, even if it is well intentioned.
So to all involved, my hat goes off to you all, for having the guts to say what you did, and the guts to take it on board in a positive way.

If only the discussions on the Fedoras could be this frank without people getting personal

Fedora folks don't have a hatmaker openly involved in the discussion. We have proxies doing the statements. The whip group does not 'suffer' from that, as Jim is here and talking, and producer and consumer are having direct discussions regarding processes required to result in a top notch product. All we have in the fedora discussions are personal experiences and loyalities to personal products. All good subjects, but at times nonconstructive debates break out, though I'm sure no one has noticed it lately. And no, I've NEVER been involved in one of them myself. (grins) Regards. Michaelson

{comments removed by moderators}

IndyPip wrote:As I read this thread it started off extolling the joys of cracking your whip, then descended into the depths of gloom, I felt for Jim reading Kyles and Sergei's comments (I don't think they were being nasty, but the written word sure can sound blunt).

IndyPip,

I don't see this type of thread and discussion being any different from reviewing a film or restaurant or automobile, etc. One critic will love a film and another will find the same film to be an utter waste of time. What is different is that my review tried to focus on undisputable technical facts and not subjective opinion. Giving an honest consumer report about the craftsmanship and quality of a product is not "descending into the depths of gloom." It's helping you spend your money wisely. Remember that whole Firstone tire recall? I'm glad they got gloomy and informed consumers of that technical flaw.

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As far as the other two EC Whips that I inspected yesterday (RE: Tom Reidy's bullwhips) I found that they were poorly constructed as well. Again, this is coming from technical criticism and not personal opinion. All of the problems that I discussed in my first review were present in both of these whips. According to the owner these two whips were fairly new which speaks to the current crop of quality being distributed.

I have had no personal contact or experience with Jim at EC Whips so I can not and will not comment on his business practices. My intent in reviewing these whips is not to slander nor speak out of my element. Merely to inform. Thank you.

-Kyle

You three whipmakers have my deepest respect and admiration. I am not fortunate enough to own any of your products, but have had access to them at the QM summit, and have handled whips for over 21+years now, so I'm not a newcomer in that aspect by any means of the imaginiation. I sense tension here (I'm real quick that way! Ok, how many of you just went 'duh' when you read that line? (grins). Let's go neutral corners and sort this out off line. We really don't need to go this route. High regards. Michaelson

Walt, Kyle, Paul,

I was absolutlely not hurt at all by the criticism of my work. I was hurt by one of Paul's remarks which was a personal attack, and I retaliated in my next post. I went back and took the remark out of my post, but not before Paul was able to read it, and I apologize for that. I would like to clear the air with Paul, but that is something that needs to be done off list. I apologize to the rest of the board as well for taking up time and bandwidth with this issue.

Best regards,
Jim

OK, I have contacted everyone in this thread. It's back to being cool. No use "piling on" anymore. Whoever needs to go offline, please do so. And Jim, again I appreciate the way you have handled this. I am a believer that you have the highest intentions.

And remember guys what brought us hear, it's the love of this great movie that brought to this great sport of whipcracking.

Keep'em Crackin! (do some extra tonight!!! - I will ) )

-Sergei

A lot of what went down here was unfortunate in both that it happened and that then it was removed. I hope this doesn't mean that negative reviews or comments are frowned upon here at COW. I don't think they are since my comments are still standing. There just seems to be an underlying need to protect the minority that may be offended by negative discussions. Personally, I don't support this line of thinking. I think that no matter what you say or do, whether it is positive or negative, someone is always going to be offended. (Case in point, look what happened when Rundquist posted his enthusiasm for his new Optimo...) This is not to say that one shouldn't think before they post. But as a consumer I want to read whether or not a piece of gear is worth my money. I depend on you folks to inform me of the good and bad concerning jackets, fedoras, etc. Since I know a thing or two about whips I will return the favor with no BS. I realize that with the limited vendors we rely on and trust, the positive reviews are going to far out weigh the negative. But let's not unwittingly handi-cap those that have had a bad experience by removing posts, there by revising history, and making it seem as if all is peachy. The significance of the "Jacket Wars" over at IndyFan wouldn't have the same impact if all the negative or emotional aspects were removed, would they?

I'm off the soap box now. Head on over and check out my positive new jacket!

-Kyle

Kyle, I agree with everything you said. Reviews should be done on the basis of facts. An opinion is OK once it gets introduced as an opinion.

There is absolutely no reason I can think of to construct reviews that also turn personal and emotional. As you noticed none of your comments were edited, nor any others that were non-personal or non-emotional. Yesterday morning's comments were personal attacks that needed to be taken offline. And more than one person was involved.

I am a great believer of keeping this forum as an important historical record that somewhat resembles meta data for a knowledge database. So that was my background for editing. A year from now, I didn't want anybody reading in the "bullwhip" section some of the personal stuff that went on. But rather, making a decision on factual technical data and not emotion.

-Sergei

...let's also agree that where technical reviews and personal opinion reviews are accepted, mud slinging or name calling will never be accepted. I'm not talking specifically about this situation. Iit has happened in other areas, and was dealt with, the Runquist situation is an excellent example. All of those personal jabs were deleted as well, if you noticed. Keep it balanced and personalities out of it. If you have a beef with or about someone, take it offline and discuss it with that individual, or otherwise. A public airing, seemingly good for the soul, is not always welcome reading by the general public. A honest review of an item will always be welcome. Regards. Michaelson
p.s. Looks like Sergei and I were posting at the same time. Interesting we have the same bottom line.

I understand and I agree. Thank you, gentlemen.

-Kyle

Kyle,

Just a quick question while you are online ( still I hope). Where are you getting the lead tape from to put in the butt of your whips? I have driven hardware store people crazy around here trying to find something close to it.

Thanks,
Jim

I went to a roofing company and bought a 12" x 24" length of lead flashing(sp?). I just cut 1" strips out to what ever length I need depending on how heavy I want the whip balanced.

-Kyle

Jim,
It turns out that serious golfers and tennis players juice up (Sorry Mr. Fall Guy) their clubs/rackets with lead tape. There are pages and pages of material on the web that goes into weighting clubs/rackets. Here are some important calculations:

- Lead tape "normally" weighs 0.5 gram per inch.
- 8 inches of standard 1/2-inch [wide] lead tape adds around 3.5 grams of weight (28 grams = 1 ounce).
- 28 grams = 1 ounce and 2.54 cm = 1 inch.

For online buying of leadtape:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/dynacraftgolf/leadtape.html

-Sergei

Thanks, guys! I really appreciate it.

Jim

Thanks for the link too, Walt. I just placed an order.

Jim

KyleS wrote:

IndyPip wrote:As I read this thread it started off extolling the joys of cracking your whip, then descended into the depths of gloom, I felt for Jim reading Kyles and Sergei's comments (I don't think they were being nasty, but the written word sure can sound blunt).

IndyPip,

I don't see this type of thread and discussion being any different from reviewing a film or restaurant or automobile, etc. One critic will love a film and another will find the same film to be an utter waste of time. What is different is that my review tried to focus on undisputable technical facts and not subjective opinion. Giving an honest consumer report about the craftsmanship and quality of a product is not "descending into the depths of gloom." It's helping you spend your money wisely. Remember that whole Firstone tire recall? I'm glad they got gloomy and informed consumers of that technical flaw.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as the other two EC Whips that I inspected yesterday (RE: Tom Reidy's bullwhips) I found that they were poorly constructed as well. Again, this is coming from technical criticism and not personal opinion. All of the problems that I discussed in my first review were present in both of these whips. According to the owner these two whips were fairly new which speaks to the current crop of quality being distributed.

I have had no personal contact or experience with Jim at EC Whips so I can not and will not comment on his business practices. My intent in reviewing these whips is not to slander nor speak out of my element. Merely to inform. Thank you.

-Kyle

Kyle, yep the written word sure does get misconstrued. I meant no disrespect, I totally agree with the points you made, and I think you will have helped Jim, as feedback should help him improve his methods. I just think sometimes it's easier to explain things face to face (of course not always true either). I think Jim realised you meant well too (judging by his response).

If it ain't clear already, no offence meant to anyone by any comments I've made.

What the @#$% do you mean by that, bub? (grins) The written word can indeed be dangerous at times, can't it? High regards. Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:What the @#$% do you mean by that, bub? (grins) The written word can indeed be dangerous at times, can't it? High regards. Michaelson

"Don't you get it Michaelson, they pen is mightier than the sword!" (grins as he misquotes a film he saw once (or twice ))

Touche'. (grins) High regards. Michaelson

Whgw I'm glad that's all settled! It was beginning to sound like
a political debate. I feel for Jim and am truly touched by his ability to
take the punch on the chin and walk with his head up. I have like Indy
French been in sheer exhiliaration of cracking a whip for it's own unique way of making you feel alive. Even the shoddy one I bought in Tijuana after seeing Raiders of the Lost Ark in 1982 gave me that thrill. For a
girl of 11, I knew very little of plaits, falls, kangaroo hide etc. It was the
sheer fun of practicing, and hearing that crack the world of difference. I
must have been 28 when I bought my first roo hide whip, and it was a Joe Strain. Since then I've owned eight whips from Florida, Mexico, Arizona,
and Texas. None of them compared to the Roo hide but nevertheless, I still own that Tijuana piece of junk, and it's memory hasn't faded from my
minds eye. Technicality is for theoreticians. Whips are for action not
words or coffee table conversation pieces. Jim my hats off to you at
being one of those rare few that can take a punch, and critique the way
his bruise could have looked better. Keep at your art like you do with
dilligence, tenacity, and grit and you will prove worthy. Please put
me on your list too, I would be honored.

Thank you very much! Just send me your email address and I'll put you on the list. njwhipmaker@ecwhips.com

Regards,
Jim