Club Obi Wan

Ok, I'm trying to finally get a definitive answer to the question of what the true width of the ribbon on the hero fedora was/is. Many believe it to be 39mm but on the contrary I've had an independent source measure two different AB/Penman Indy hats and both of those ribbon widths were 38mm or less. I'd like to ask anyone here at COW who owns an AB/ Penman Indy hat to please measure your ribbon's widths in terms of millimeters and post the results here to clear this up. My Steele & Jones, Garrison, Advintage, Akubra, etc...all have ribbons that are 39mm or more btw. Here's a couple different Penman Indy hats: Everyman and Raider...[/img]

I'm not sure the pic of the Everman hat posted so here it is again...

You're talking about a single millimeter difference here, right?

My understanding from gear history is that the specs of the original hat were given to us by Swales himself.
Stated as "39mm." Where is the question in that?

Every other hater uses the same (with few exceptions.)

The new representative from HJ, himself, states that the ribbon is 39mm. Again, what is to question?

From what I've read around, the only argument against this was some sort of unsubstantiated claim of ribbon from the original factory, that is supposedly 38mm.
Thus, the ribbon MUST be 38mm.

Sorry my friend, I think there are way more things in this world to worry about.

Marcus wrote:You're talking about a single millimeter difference here, right?

My understanding from gear history is that the specs of the original hat were given to us by Swales himself.
Stated as "39mm." Where is the question in that?

Every other hater uses the same (with few exceptions.)

The new representative from HJ, himself, states that the ribbon is 39mm. Again, what is to question?

From what I've read around, the only argument against this was some sort of unsubstantiated claim of ribbon from the original factory, that is supposedly 38mm.
Thus, the ribbon MUST be 38mm.

Sorry my friend, I think there are way more things in this world to worry about.

Yes indeed I agree 100% there are way more things in this world to worry about. That said, this is a forum where these sorts of discussions are encouraged and small details can make a lot of difference to some of us here including myself. If you don't have anything to contribute to this thread then may I ask why bother to interject in the first place?
I would just like to know if other Penman/AB hat owners have 38mm ribbons or not. Not that difficult.

Apologies, but like you said, this is a forum for sharing ones opinions.

And you did ask...

I'm trying to finally get a definitive answer to the question of what the true width of the ribbon on the hero fedora was/is.

If you use the information I mentioned earlier and compared it to what your sources report about the Penman hats,
I'd have to say, in regards to the original hat, the penman ribbon is likely just plain wrong.
But again, it is only off by 1mm.

I rarely post here, but I've been following the HJ thread closely and am eager to see what this project brings!
Which is why I'm quite dumbfounded when this sort of question arises.

Good luck with your investigation!

No, my apologies. I should've been more specific in my original comment on this thread. I know this has been discussed many times over the years and the majority say 39mm and I am still on the fence tbh, so I'm asking solely for measurements and photos with measurements would be even better if possible.

If I may point out, the only reliably accurate measure of the ribbon would be of an unused piece, fresh off the production line. The process of placing it on a hat involves exposure to water and/or steam , and then it is exposed to the elements when worn. It's measurements are likely to change over time. In fact, the fabric composition of hat ribbon is specifically chosen so it will shrink. Therefore, measuring the ribbon on a finished hat offers an inaccurate conclusion, and variation is certain to occur.

It's sort of like a Quarter Pounder. It's a quarter pound before cooking, not after.

Looks like all of JP's customers followed him out of here.

I will upload a photo tomorrow of one of mine.

Hi guys.

I'll stir the pot.

1 inch = 25.4mm.

1.5 inch x 25.4mm = 38.1mm.

I've always considered 1.5 inch (Indy's gunbelt width measurement also) to be equal to 38mm.

Could the old quote of 39mm just be a throw away line from someone, who back in the day, couldn't care less about 1mm difference, which in the real world, means nothing to a civilian, but here, is going to drive some people to absolute distraction?

Regards

Aaron

anindyjones wrote:Looks like all of JP's customers followed him out of here.

Nope. I'm still here, at least. If life calms down long enough for me to take and post pictures, I'll contribute. I still don't see much point to measuring something that is likely no longer it's original size... as I noted above.

I didn't even get into the contours of the hat surface, or the fact that the ribbon probably isn't straight, or that it's very hard for a human being the place a tape measure in exactly the same spot on each item measured... easily being off by a mm or two.

I can tell you that I've measured numerous hat ribbons on hats in my years that were supposedly 1.5" and seen plenty of variation. The "official" width of any ribbon is probably just an estimate.

yagottabe wrote:Hi guys.

I'll stir the pot.

1 inch = 25.4mm.

1.5 inch x 25.4mm = 38.1mm.

I've always considered 1.5 inch (Indy's gunbelt width measurement also) to be equal to 38mm.

Could the old quote of 39mm just be a throw away line from someone, who back in the day, couldn't care less about 1mm difference, which in the real world, means nothing to a civilian, but here, is going to drive some people to absolute distraction?

Regards

Aaron

I can't totally agree, Aaron, simply because this ribbon came from a British shop in London, who works in metrics, and makes hats for British customers. There was, and is, no reason to use measurements in the old English system WE still use when measuring and ordering material for their work.

They said 39mm, and they meant 39mm, and this was quoted directly FROM Richard Swales by many people who asked him for specs.

That said, we now return you to anindyjones ribbon quest, already in progress......

Regards! Michaelson

Just to throw in a word of caution when mentioning banned members. Don't want to skirt to close too the line to get into trouble.

Product is one thing, banned members another.

anindyjones wrote:Looks like all of JP's customers followed him out of here.

Penman Raiders in Beaver

Now that is a proper measurement using the right tools.
Looks 39mm to me...

And I have ot agree with Chewy, I think variances in batch and processing would affect overall stats.

IF the ribbon on all the hats pictured are the same... that is some variance! Seems to me QA in the ole ribbon factory may be a bit off.

Mike wrote:Just to throw in a word of caution when mentioning banned members. Don't want to skirt to close too the line to get into trouble.

Product is one thing, banned members another.

anindyjones wrote:Looks like all of JP's customers followed him out of here.

??? So...just mentioning a banned member can get me in "trouble"??? Really???

Dalexs wrote: Now that is a proper measurement using the right tools.
Looks 39mm to me...

And I have ot agree with Chewy, I think variances in batch and processing would affect overall stats.

IF the ribbon on all the hats pictured are the same... that is some variance! Seems to me QA in the ole ribbon factory may be a bit off.

I agree. I've seen a few 38mm ABs and also a few 39mm AB ribbons. I have a theory that one thing that makes it unique is that it is a hair thinner than most of the others I've seen.

Jeremiah wrote:Penman Raiders in Beaver

Thanks for taking the time to do the measurement.
Not to split hairs but isn't there about a mm gap there in the corner of your rule where you took the measurement ? I can see the felt I think?

Might be the less the size of a hair but not enough to make it 38mm.
If anything this might be a hair over 39 if you took into account the edges are raised just a hair from the stitching. I made sure to use the bottom edge of ribbon as a straight edge to butt square up against. No way there is a whole mm gap there.

yagottabe wrote:Hi guys.

I'll stir the pot.

1 inch = 25.4mm.

1.5 inch x 25.4mm = 38.1mm.

I've always considered 1.5 inch (Indy's gunbelt width measurement also) to be equal to 38mm.

Could the old quote of 39mm just be a throw away line from someone, who back in the day, couldn't care less about 1mm difference, which in the real world, means nothing to a civilian, but here, is going to drive some people to absolute distraction?

Regards

Aaron

Yep most folks quote the 1.5" without even realizing that it's closer to 38 than it is to 39mm.

Jeremiah wrote:Might be the less the size of a hair but not enough to make it 38mm.
If anything this might be a hair over 39 if you took into account the edges are raised just a hair from the stitching. I made sure to use the bottom edge of ribbon as a straight edge to butt square up against. No way there is a whole mm gap there.

Looks like a mm from here. But thanks all the same for taking the time to measure regardless.

Ok just to show you I am right and you are wrong I am going to do this again. Be right back. I work with leather I think I know how to measure.

Jeremiah wrote:Ok just to show you I am right and you are wrong I am going to do this again. Be right back. I work with leather I think I know how to measure.

I don't really care who's right or wrong I'm just looking for as precise as possible. Like I said before I have a theory that what makes this ribbon unique is that it's a little smaller than other ribbon that's used on Indy lids across the board. One problem is that most people just want to assume the 39mm is correct and not even bother to check to see otherwise. Then most folks aren't really invested so they'll take a loose measurement.
I work with leather too btw. Been using a ruler since the 70s.

I could give a rats arse whether my ribbon is 39 or 38. I got this thing butted up against bottom of ruler. I don't take loose measurements like I said. Its 39mm.



I am also uploading another with square in same position but a better angle. Give me a second.

Ok here is second photo. I actually made as if it were 38mm to show you it's not. Probably beat I can do short of ripping the ribbon off and mailing it to you.



One more for posterity.

I think once you said that you wanted to prove me wrong and yourself right, I pretty much chalked it up to confirmation bias and put you in the 39mm lot.
Thanks once again for measuring.

Nah. Just proving I know what I was doing when measuring is all. Meaning, I was not wrong with what I measured my ribbon as. Also this definitely not more than 39mm on mine. I also have an ABL I can measure to see if there is any consistency. Could even be what people use to measure with. It's a small difference to be sure.
That said, if the ribbon is advertised on this hat as being 39mm it would not be any shorter. Anyone with a ruler could prove otherwise. Whether the original ribbon was that or not, again, I don't care really. Only was offering the pic since no one else did yet.

anindyjones wrote:Like I said before I have a theory that what makes this ribbon unique is that it's a little smaller than other ribbon that's used on Indy lids across the board. One problem is that most people just want to assume the 39mm is correct and not even bother to check to see otherwise.

For clarification, are you saying that people assume that Swales' assertion of 39mm is correct without checking, or that people assume the AB/Penman ribbon is 39mm without checking?

Chewbacca Jones wrote:

anindyjones wrote:Like I said before I have a theory that what makes this ribbon unique is that it's a little smaller than other ribbon that's used on Indy lids across the board. One problem is that most people just want to assume the 39mm is correct and not even bother to check to see otherwise.

For clarification, are you saying that people assume that Swales' assertion of 39mm is correct without checking, or that people assume the AB/Penman ribbon is 39mm without checking?

Short answer: both of those
I think that since most are aware that Swales was the guy who put the hat together that he of all people should know exactly what size the ribbon was and because of that its a good enough estimate for most people.

Jeremiah wrote:I could give a rats arse whether my ribbon is 39 or 38. I got this thing butted up against bottom of ruler. I don't take loose measurements like I said. Its 39mm.



I am also uploading another with square in same position but a better angle. Give me a second.

Ok here is second photo. I actually made as if it were 38mm to show you it's not. Probably beat I can do short of ripping the ribbon off and mailing it to you.



One more for posterity.

To my eye, the first two photos here actually show the ribbon as closer to 38mm. Particularly the first where it appears that there is about a millimetre gap between the 100 mark and where the ribbon's left edge begins. But then in the third picture it does look closer to 39mm to me. Just goes to show how different photo angles combined with an individual's unique perspective can lead to people seeing things differently.

One point regarding inches versus millimetres - although in the UK we have adopted the metric system of measuring, it is still very common for people to use imperial measurements in certain cases. For example, we still measure distances and travelling speeds in miles and garment sizes in inches. Back in the late 70s to early 80s it would have been even more common for imperial to be used, which means that the ribbon's width would more likely have been specified in inches than in it's metric equivalent if it was produced in the UK.

You are right in the angles of photos. Each time I would take it I would then look at the photo and say wow, that's not what I am seeing.
I'm the end the only great angle is the one where I put the square perpendicular to the ribbon.

Ever heard of a digital micrometer? Heck with the camera angles.

http://www.vxb.com/Electronic-LCD-Digit ... gQodDJsCuA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I use mine for these kinds of measurements all the time.

Regard! Michaelson

Send me yours to try out. Ha.

Jeremiah wrote:You are right in the angles of photos. Each time I would take it I would then look at the photo and say wow, that's not what I am seeing.
I'm the end the only great angle is the one where I put the square perpendicular to the ribbon.

Um...that's not what you told me.

That's only pertaining to the subsequent photos I took. It's why I used the third one. Man am I sorry I bothered with this now.

Just measured my penman ABL and ADventurebilt rebuilt by Penman hats. Both of those ribbons come in right at 39mm.

Maybe the discrepancy about the ribbon width, between what Swales stated and the measurements, it's only because a different point of view.

I've had a word from a guy who understands about ribbon making.
The matrix or pattern (I don't know the correct translation to english of the word) where the ribbon is made, is ussually smaller than the resulted ribbon.
The ribbon material use to go beyond the matrix limit. Very slightly.
Due to different reasons, like material thickness, strenght applied, even weather at the time the ribbon is made...etc.

So, maybe Swales referred to the measurement of the ribbon pattern = 38 mm
Not to the resulting ribbon width = 39 mm


Or maybe...he just mistake by 1 mm.....we all can forgive him, right?


And that's all I have to say about that.-

Understood, and I was told years ago by another well known hat maker that the ribbon starts out at 39 mm (as stated by Swales), but can evolve to just about anything when installed on a hat due to stretch.

It's kind of subjective.....is it where it starts, or how it sometimes ends?

Regards! M

What if the ribbon is actually 38.5mm? Then what do we do??

It's all good. I went back on all my hats that were just 39mm or just shy a hair and used a sharpie so no more measurement problems.

Indy Magnoli wrote:What if the ribbon is actually 38.5mm? Then what do we do??

I don't know? Is the ribbon on your hat 38.5mm? I've seen many different hats(AB) now that have all sorts of measurements ranging from 37.5 up to 39mm.

Perhaps the true width is the hat ribbon equivalent of Pi. After all, who doesn't love Pi?

Chewbacca Jones wrote:Perhaps the true width is the hat ribbon equivalent of Pi. After all, who doesn't love Pi?

Absolutely I love Pi! Chocolate Pi, Pumpkin Pi, Lemon meringue Pi...

Well... many of the things we do here are quite irrational, so it makes sense.

Naw, it may be irrational to an outsider, but here I think it's the norm.

Definitely. It's why I love this place and you guys.

Infinitely irrational, Mags. Infinitely.



Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Jeremiah wrote:Definitely. It's why I love this place and you guys.

I know we disagree on some things but thanks again for being the sole member to actually take the time to measure and post the results.

Not sure what we disagree on but you are welcome nonetheless.

Indiana Jeff wrote:Infinitely irrational, Mags. Infinitely.

Is there such a think as finitely irrational?

MOD EDIT: Let's please remember the rules and not make obvious political jokes.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff