Club Obi Wan

Texan Scott wrote:Of the four jackets, the ToD has the most interesting past and remains a bit of a mystery. There are some lingering questions about how the ToD came to be and who made the jacket as seen in film..?

Lucasfilm licensed the jacket before production began. Part of that license included product placement. As a result, the design was effectively given to the license holder and not the wardrobe designer. While several companies were approached, one had some limited experience with the design—Cooper.

Texan Scott wrote:
Another interesting tidbit is that KT is about the only one in the forum who has handled a ToD jacket personally, and he has said before, that he did not think it was a Cooper...? This would be the jacket that apparently Powell gave to NH.

Texan Scott wrote: Another interesting tidbit is that KT is about the only one in the forum who has handled a ToD jacket personally, and he has said before, that he did not think it was a Cooper...?

Texan Scott wrote:There is so much to this we will never know because we weren't there. All you can do is piece it together as best we can.

Texan Scott wrote:Having drawn three Admin and a strong Cooper supporter, I'll state the following.....

I suppose that any of the comments can be disassembled piece meal, but I like to pursue discussion in an honest way. Sometimes it's best, when things don't always make sense to back up and look at it from different angles.

There are basically two schools of thought with these jacket origins, at least for those of us who care to drill it down any deeper for more information, or for amusement or just because it is interesting.

Not having been there, then we sort of have to read between the lines, but I believe that most likely, LFL signed an exclusive agreement with B&N to make elements of the costume. Then B&N further sub-contracted out the work to various parties around London, since much of the movie was shot at Elstree, the Rickmansworth School, and even relatively nearby across the channel, at La Rochelle, France. In the early days, Lucas had to shoot over there. For one it was cheaper, and he was not accepted by the Hollywood establishment.

But make no mistake about it, there are some who really want that the jacket be produced by an American maker. I just do not believe that story about Cooper. Years ago, it was stated that SS was not happy with Peter's work, and that he flew Neil Cooper to London in from the states, and that he made two jackets for Raiders overnight. Sorry.... I just can't buy that.

Raiders was operating on a relative, "shoe string" budget in those days, and not only that, but SS needed to prove that he could deliver a movie on time and under budget, so not only was it filmed quick and dirty, but relatively "cheaply" for a major motion picture such as this back in the day.

I think it much more likely that all the articles of what we now call the "gear" were made around London, under exclusive contract by B&N, not that anyone except us would really care or be that interested in the proceedings.

...the Western Costume "mock up" was never photoed. If there was one, it obviously didn't look like the Wilson A-2's. If there was one, why didn't WC make a couple of leather jackets...because it was closer to what they wanted... before DN got on the plane for London?

The dock jacket had a low yoke, and strangely, the TL stunt jacket for the truck drag had small pockets with large flaps, similar to ToD, as knibs and Diego seem to varify. It looks like these two were protos, or possibly jackets from the 1st & 2nd iterations. Further, it looks like these jackets could have been the inspiration for the ToD.

CM wrote:Not sure I follow you Indiego.

I have no idea where Cooper fits into the Raiders story. All I accept is that he submitted a jacket/s. Whether the jacekt was used, or his pattern was used on screen I can't say, although there are various accounts.

CM wrote:As for the prototype - I don't know which one that's meant to be. I'm also not sure about the Bantu wind jacket. Is it really different to the others? Maybe, I can't tell from the footage. Is this a Wilsons jacket, maybe?

CM wrote:If Cooper made the ToD jackets why wouldn't the pattern change from the Raider's jacket? Heck, Peter's pattern for the Raiders change too and kept changing for some time. Isn't it also possible that the ToD costume designer wanted tweaks or something closer to the WC mock up which may have been the standard reference?

Based on these sketches, “ten military-style plain cuffed and plain hemmed leather jackets” were ordered from Wilson’s Leather in Los Angeles. This was the extent of the original specification, and Wilson’s responded with an altered A2-like jacket design that removed the jersey knits from the hems and cuffs.

Texan Scott wrote:Maybe I misread that part, but its interesting that TS had already screen tested for Indy in an A-2 with knits and a gray fedora.

Holt wrote:I have been reading this topic with interest but stayed out of the discussion for many reasons..

But riddle me this, if some doubt the Cooper/french company did not make the TofD jackets, why would an american or english based company go thru some hassle to source the odd weird ''Solide Paris'' two pronge tri glides on their straps when they are on short time leash? Whats the point?

I figure a french based company would definitily use their own hardware. The temple jackets have buckles that are stamped with ''Paris'', as in Paris made. So why wouldn't the Jackets have been made in France again?

Indiego Jones wrote:

CM wrote:As for the prototype - I don't know which one that's meant to be. I'm also not sure about the Bantu wind jacket. Is it really different to the others? Maybe, I can't tell from the footage. Is this a Wilsons jacket, maybe?

PROTOTYPE = Bantu wind dock scenes
Full lenght back pleats, low yoke, smaller pockets, collar proportions = differences from Raiders Hero jackets
This I'm pointing to you are visible facts just watching the movie and/or HD screencaps.

Texan Scott wrote:That is really where the road forks. Either you believe the production entered into an exclusive contract with B&N, subsequently they farmed out the work, leading to Leather Concessionaires; or you believe that Cooper made it. If so, how did he become involved? Is not an exclusive contract exclusive? That once in England, they chose instead to defer back across the sea?

Texan Scott wrote:Jeff, as I tried to explain, it's interesting that these jackets with the low yokes and little pockets kept appearing in various scenes and outtakes, as the stills indicate, going back to Raiders. I believe the proto or possibly one or more jackets from Raiders were at least the inspiration for the ToD jacket. The dock jacket had a low yoke, but we cannot see the whole jacket in detail. The TL truck drag...low yoke and little pockets, the ToD and LC tank sequence. All these apparently with low yokes and little pockets. That is why it was important to start with Raiders, because apparently, ToD was not the first time these jacket(s) appeared.

The proto may have had a lower yolk but the rest of the details may have been the same as the other Raiders jackets. Certainly looks that way in the Bantu wind sequence and behind the scenes footage.

I believe that initially, in Raiders, one of these jackets was made (a proto) and submitted, but rejected, and maybe it was partially rejected because of the little pockets. If you look at historical A-2's, they have little pockets that are not really practical today, almost token pockets. Whatever the case, we do know the dock jacket was made with a low yoke, which is much different in width than the Hero. What was it? Most likely a proto was used for the dock sequence until the Hero could be made. Further, it looks like the rejected the proto, was replaced with upsized map pockets in the Hero & Hawaii jackets. After ToD, they went with larger pockets on the LC. Upsizing each time.

Some A2's have slightly smaller pockets but none are as small as the ToD pockets. I think you're jumping to conclusions about whether or if the proto was rejected. What makes you think the pocket size mattered to the film makers?

The TL jacket, what was it? Again, a jacket with low yoke and little pockets appear. What was it, it must have been a proto or a jacket from the 1st or 2nd iteration, there are not many other options.

A Wilson jacket. No reason to assume otherwise.

If the low yoke/little pockets with triangular wide flaps were seen in Raiders, then it appears that these jackets were old stock, and possibly kept in storage, and either these jackets were used in ToD or served as templates for the jacket(s) in ToD. You already have evidence from the stills that this jacket, one or more, pre-existed ToD, so it follows that possibly, the Raiders proto or rejected jackets from the 1st and/or 2nd iterations from Raiders served as the basis for ToD.

Maybe the smaller pockets belonged to the Cooper jacket hence they appear in Raiders and later in ToD. Fits the Neil Cooper claims.


KT has stated emphatically before, that the ToD jacket he handled did not look like a Leather Concessionaire and did not look like a Cooper. It seems to still be a mystery, as to who actually made that jacket. If a guy who knows these jackets has actually tried it on, and checked around on its features doesn't have a firm idea where the jacket came from, then ...? What we do see in the photo above, someone had tried the jacket on, that the ToD had a large, aluminum like zipper, mounted on the left side under the storm flap....under the storm flap.

Again, how would Kt know the ToD was not a Cooper? Where's his point of comparison - a Disney Cooper, maybe? The jacket was said to be made by Neil Cooper by hand not the New Jersey factory. Also how do you know the zips weren't swapped out - it was said that this happened to the Indy Jackets.

The Raiders proto & iteration(s) must have been kept in storage. They could have decided to hold on to them, because you had a hit movie on your hands. Powell takes the helm, and 'let's see what we've got' left over? How much apparel do we have already made, and possibly what more do we need to have made? They drag them out again. Not only the jacket, but you need the old stock to basically be templates for the new movie, pants, shirts, for consistency, etc. Wasn't just any old work pant or shirt.

I can't follow this last point, sorry.

Texan Scott wrote: It has also been stated before that DN had nothing in her hands when she went to England, so I am wondering if there is any teeth to the Wilson's notion? In the meeting, Kelly and Peter discuss the jacket details, and Peter says I'll just modify a James Dean...? This would imply that no jackets, at least no leather jackets existed before von Peter began to cut.

Texan Scott wrote:It has also been stated before that DN had nothing in her hands when she went to England, so I am wondering if there is any teeth to the Wilson's notion? In the meeting, Kelly and Peter discuss the jacket details, and Peter says I'll just modify a James Dean...? This would imply that no jackets, at least no leather jackets existed before von Peter began to cut.

Texan Scott wrote:....I added a few brief sentences to the end there CM.

I still do not believe the notion that SS had him secretly flown in to make the jacket(s) at the last minute, like no one else could make leather jackets around London? That must have been a long night for the guy, making two jackets, and it has already been proven that there was a proto and it existed before the Hero. The dock outtakes prove it.

Make plenty o' coffee Steven! It's going to be a long night!

Raiders was operating on a shoe string budget back in the day, and no one had foreknowledge of what this movie would become. It was a B movie on steroids.

Texan Scott wrote:I think there were certain concepts to the jacket that needed to exist, namely shortness. The big issue was the gun and whip hanging up. Next, would be the modified A-2 look, then I am guessing the pleats, etc.

M, it would be really interesting to know at what point the Wilson's entered the picture and what they may have looked like?

I forgot to mention the other idea as told to me years ago, that GL & SS did not like dealing with military/defense type contractors at all.